DRUMMER CAFE - Community Drum & Percussion Forum

Recently I've been reading a lot of stuff off Tiger Bill Meligari's website and he is absoultly adament that the Gladstone technique is the one true secret to developing great chops.

I must say a lot of what he says makes perfecrt sense, less tension and effort should equate more speed and control around the kit.

However I am currently being taught the Moeller technique and my teacher assures me that this is the best way, I'm still unsure.

Is it possible to use both??

What's the differences between the two?

To me Gladstone and Moeller technique are synonymous; just like 6 or half a dozen.

To my knowledge they are one in the same.

There are differences between the two techniques and there is nothing wrong with being exposed to and learning both of them. Tiger, I would bet, knows and uses both techniques.

The Gladstone technique(s) can be applied anytime while the Moeller technique is more limited in its application.

Plowboy's the expert here, but I did take a lesson with Tiger Bill  (I didn't Stay at a Holiday Inn Express though).    

At any rate, to me, the Moeller technique is NOT the same as the Gladstone or 'Free Stroke' technique.  I never thought of equating them, so I didn't ask specifically, but Tiger Bill seemed to approach them as individual techniques as well.   I would say the Gladstone, or Free Stroke, is a more generalized or universal approach to stirking a drum.  The Moeller technique, on the other hand, involves the whipping motion and is really only applicable to accents   No one would use the Moeller technique on a series of un-accented singles for example.  So in this sense the Moeller technique has a more specific purpose.  They are different concepts and techniques, but they enhance one another, and they are both good to learn.  

I think the confusion lies in that people think the Moeller technique is only for accents.

It's about Up, Down, Full and Tap strokes. Yes, you use it when you need to play accents ... but that's not all it is.

From the time that I've spent with Jim Chapin, I believe he says that Gladstone and Moeller are the same approaches. And if memory serves, Gladstone studied with Moeller.

Unless someone can give real specific differences, I think Gladstone vs. Moeller is just semantics and a way to divide rather than unite. Perhaps people are not narrowing the definition of the Moeller technique so they can put more lables to other aspects of playing technique. I've been using the Moeller/Gladstone technique since the early 80's ... and there was never this narrow of a definition for it. Perhaps times have changed ... but unless there's some real clarity, I don't see the point to all of the discussion.

Right.  A Gladstone technique I always thought was a "reduced moeller" which I always thought was the "Chapin" technique.

I personally think it's kinda overkill also.  We have gone back and forth on this and I think all the Moeller vs. Gladstone vs. fulcrum position is alot of hot air.  You either can pull your chops off or you can't technique will help, but not as much as God given talent.

I'm sure Moeller had a unified overall approach to teaching and playing drums, but as it has come to be understood, the Moeller technique generally describes the whipping motion as it's applied to accents.  I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe Dom Famularo clearly describes the various techniques in It's Your Move'.  To my recollection he separates the Free Stroke (or Gladstone) from Moeller.  Morello in his Video #1 also describes and demonstrates the Free Stroke approach and then describes and demonstrates the Moeller technique and it's usefullness in accenting.  Later he makes a little joke saying you wouldn't uses the Moeller technique for consecutive accents (demonstrating the flapping arms) unless you wanted to levitate.  In Danny Gottlieb's Video #1 he also demonstrates the Free Stroke concept and later plays some accented triplets stating that for THESE he is utilizing the Moeller technique.  Steve Smith also demonstrates Moeller as a separate technique.  It's pretty clear that all of these guys are making clear distinctions of where and when to apply the Moeller technique.  They are obviously thinking of Moeller in a very specific way, i.e. the whipping motion.      

I'm sure each of the 'Big Three' (Moeller, Stone,  and Gladstone) had a unified technique, but with Moeller in particular we have come to focus on the whipping motion as the defining feature.  For better or worse, I don't think anyone thinks of using  the Moeller technique on non-accented types of patterns.  I think even Chapin talks about the specicifity of the Moeller technique in his video.  

I don't see how any of this can be construed as trying to drive a wedge between various approaches and techniques.  There is nothing divisive in being aware of the mechanics and functionality of various techniques and approaches.    

BTW, to my knowledge Gladstone never studied or associated with Moeller.

I also might add that I have a few hand-written exercise sheets of Chapin's where he talks about the Stone, Gladstone and Moeller techniques.  He apparently sees 'some' differences.  

Personally I'm somewhat amazed at the reluctance people have in examining or acknowledging differences in approach.   It's almost as if admitting that there might be differences is viewed as a threat to one's knowledge or technique.  I view it just the opposite:  knowledge is power.  

You're a new member and haven't been here through the years of discussion on this topic. I have no problem learning new things; I'm an educator and build my entire life on learning and teaching.

In the past ... arguments have risen over semantics, terms, definitions, etc. Early in this thread, individuals said there were differences but made no attempt to disclose the specifics. To me, if you say there's a difference ... you should be able to back it up with some facts so we all can learn and understand these differences (which funkster has now done). I'm just not into having people post opinions without some knowledge or fact to back it up. Not trying to be a jerk about it ... I just want clarity ... and not just leave the discussion with an attitude like "there's a difference, trust me".

I've hung out with Chapin on server ocassions ... and it seems that the lines that are being drawn are merely to clarify the various aspects for educational purposes. For a long, long time Chapin just referred it all to Moeller technique ... and that is how I teach it.

Thank you for shedding some light on the subject.  8)

I also own a copy of "It's Your Move" by Dom Famularo and he does make a distinction between these techniques.  From what I have read and come to understand is that the free stroke is the technique involved with dribbling the stick with your fingers like a basketball.  Dribbling is the best way to describe it since the technique is specifically focused on pushing the stick down toward the contact surface.  If at anytime you use your wrist or fingers to pull the stick upward, then you are no longer using freestroke.  Moeller, however, must use the wrist and arm to pull the stick upward in order to create accents.  These two techniques are most often used together-- unaccented series of notes the freestroke or Gladstone, and for accents the Moeller.  They are both energy conserving techniques that will allow for faster playing and also save your wrists from injury so there's no wonder why many of the greats use them together.  And in many instances without realizing it.

Free bounce is free bounce. Are you (or Dom) saying that "free bounce" is now called Gladstone technique? To me,  it makes no sense to give it another term when "free bounce" is perfectly descriptive ... and a term that I've used and known.

I've never considered "free bounce" to be Moeller or Gladstone; free bounce is just free bounce.

The early concept with Moeller was the use of the whipping, but also the various stroke types (ie. Up, Down, Tap, Full). This allowed for great speed and less work because you were using the natural rebound of the stick to get where you needed to go for the next stroke. It has many more uses besides the ever popular "whipping" action for accented triplets.

Bart,
I don't know that I've shed much light on things, but thanks just the same.  I wasn't trying to be argumentative, nor do I consider myself an expert on any of the subjects.  I've studied and sought out information whenever I could. I've tried to remain a perpetual student and I'm always trying to learn more about the art and science of drumming and music.   (BTW, you and I share a common teacher.  Maybe we can chat off-line sometime.)

Actually Dom doesn't mention anywhere in his book about a "Gladstone" technique.  I only remember hearing about it at Tiger Bills website.  

Reading Tiger Bill's more in depth explanation of the Gladstone technique in his "Monster Chops" lessons, I'm not really able to find much of a distinction between it (Gladstone) and Moeller.  So I would not say that freestroke or free bounce are the same thing as the Gladstone technique.  If your interested on Tiger Bills take of the "Gladstone" method take a look at the link.
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=gladstone&sp-a=sp1001c86c&sp-f=iso-8859-1 (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=gladstone&sp-a=sp1001c86c&sp-f=iso-8859-1)

 

I don't think anyone is being argumentative- it's just we have gone round and round about the semantics of these two (or one technique) techniques.  

If that is the case ... then like I originally said ... Gladstone and Moeller are essentially the same thing, but some individuals have narrowed the terms to mean particular aspects. Obviously, I have no problem with it if it's embraced and accepted by the drumming community. But the opening thread asked about being able to use Gladstone and Moeller at the same time, as though they were two very different techniques. If they are, I want to know/learn the differences.

So back to my original question ... if "free bounce" is not Gladstone, then what is the distinct differences between Gladstone and Moeller techniques that would require one to give two different labels, if in fact Moeller and Gladstone are essentially not the same approach? If Moeller "has come to be understood" as being "the whipping motion as it's applied to accents" ... what is the Gladstone technique?

If Gladstone and Moeller are different enough that they need their own labels, then I would think there's got to be a criteria or definition for the term. I still believe the Moeller is far broader of a technique than the "whipping motion" ... but if the definition of Moeller is now narrowed to only mean this, and "free bounce" isn't Gladstone (which I never thought it was) ... then what is Gladstone technique?

If the Gladstone IS the free bounce technique, then sure, it's a different thing than Moeller. I've just never heard free bounce referred to as Gladstone. I've always heard of Gladstone and Moeller labels being used interchangeably ... so that's part of the confusion (at least on my part).

Anyone?

Bart, you forgot the "Morello" technique which is basically a modernized Gladstone technique.

I hate debating this topic for the nth time... I'm off to play my drums now.  I like how Mac puts it simply "I don't use the Moeller Technique" or something like that *sorry if I misquoted you.

My goal is to have my own technique and teach it to my students.  "The felix technique" as I call it where one doesn't practice at all.  Try it, you will love it.

Probably the easiest thing to do is go to the Vic Firth website and watch the demonstrations of the Free Stroke by Dom Famularo and the Moeller Stroke by Chapin.  If you feel they are the same technique that's OK with me.  

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

BTW, Tiger Bill equates the Gladstone technique to the 'Free Stroke':



Morello and Famularo may also attribute the Free Stroke to G.L. Stone, but it also seems to be commonly attributed to Gladstone (see Tiger Bill).  

For all I know, Gladstone may have also used an accent technique similar to Moeller (most good drummers would probably stumble on it eventually), but I have no documentation of this, and the whipping motion is universally referred to as Moeller (not Gladstone).  Therefore for the purpose of discussion, I refer to the Moeller technique as the whipping motion, and the Gladstone technique as the Free Stroke.  That doesn't mean that they are two techniques in opposition to one another.   They should both be integrated into a unified technique and utilized in harmony, but for the sake of clarity they can be discussed and practiced individually.   If you choose a different terminology that's cool, but I will say that if someone talks to you about the Moeller technique they'll be talking about the whipping motion and not the Free Stroke.   For the sake of communication it's nice if everyone has a concept of common terminology and techniques.  

I agree about the importance of having some common terminology ... which is why I'm asking the questions.

I never said that "free stroke" and Moeller where the same technique did I? I was talking about Gladstone and Moeller being one in the same. I said that because I don't equate Gladstone being the term to refer to the "free stroke". So some are saying that Gladstone IS the "free stroke" while others are completely sure.  

This is a perfect example of the terminology issue. When you say Gladstone, you mean "free stroke". When I say Gladstone or Moeller, I mean everything that encompasses the Moeller technique, not just the "whipping action". So you were confused when I said that Gladstone and Moeller where the same because you thought I had an understanding that you view Gladstone as "free bounce". Make sense?

So, to end my portion of this discussion ... I do not view Gladstone technique the same as Moeller ... IF ... Gladstone is "free bounce". Up until today, Gladstone and Moeller where basically the same thing to me term wise. So if everyone now refers to Gladstone as meaning "free bounce", I need to not use the term "Gladstone" when speaking of Moeller.  8) whew

OK

I think i need a clarification at that point : what the difference between Gladstone and Stone technique ?  ::)

OK.  Hopefully this will be my last post on the subject.  Although Gladstone, Stone and Moeller all had their own approaches to technique they undoubtedly shared many concepts.  Nonetheless, in today's world we've come to equate the Free Stroke with Gladstone and/or Stone, and the whipping motion with Moeller.

I'll quote Dom Famularo's book 'It's Your Move', because he has studied with BOTH Morello (i.e. Gladstone/Stone/Free Stroke)and Chapin (Moeller).  

On page 10 of his book, refering to the Free Stroke he states:

Dom then goes on for about 5-6 pages describing the Free Stroke and exercises to develop it.  If you want a complete description of the Free Stroke (aka Gladstone or Stone) read the lengthy description in Dom's book, refer to the Vic Firth website for Dom's video clips, and read Tiger Bill's explanation of the Free Stroke/Gladstone in his 3 part series 'Building Monster Chops'.

Now on page 16 of Dom's book explaining the Moeller stroke he states:

Dom gives a very clear synopsis of the Free Stroke and attributes it's formal origins to Gladstone and Stone.  He then gives a good overview of the Moeller Stroke, explaining it as the whipping motion and defining it as a separate technique from the Free Stroke, but one which builds on the concepts learned in the Free Stroke (aka Gladstone/Stone).  He clearly separates the two concepts and does NOT equate the Free Stroke (aka Gladstone/Stone) with the Moeller technique although he says Moeller builds on the Free Stroke.    

I really can't do much better than this explanation.  Dom's terminology and basic explanations are good enough for me.  They also coincide and confirm the info I've gleaned from Chapin, Tiger Bill, Morello, Gottlieb and others.  If people choose to use a different terminology that's fine with me, but I think the explanations provided here are consistent with current concepts and definitions.   If someone refers to the Gladstone technique they are most likely refering to the Free Stroke.  If someone refrers to the Moeller technique, they are most likely refering to the whipping motion.   That about sums it up.  
 

 

So thats what i thought , no difference between Gladstone and Stone technique , i have the Dom book and it's The book to have for All drummer !!

Funkster ... thank you for the excellent and thorough response; I've learned something new today! Can't believe I don't have Dom's book, especially since I used to sell it for him on his website!  :-[

It seems there is a narrowing of definitions occuring here.  In this current information age where more and more drummers have access to information concerning anything they desire is seems general definitions aren't good enough anymore.  

Since I have also been quite confused with the differences, if any, between these terms or techniques I too am happier with a narrowing of the definitions.  But, I would be just as satisfied if one or more of the terms were just not used any more if they were the same as ones that were already being used.  It's no wonder English is so difficult to learn to foreigners as the language is riddled with so many synonyms, not to mention our crazy way of spelling certain words.

Since Funkster appears to have done his homework -- it has influenced me and so now I feel Free Stroke is sufficient to encompass or mean the same as Gladstone or Free bounce.  And Moeller encompasses the total package and is distinctly set apart because of the whipping motion of the wrist and arms.    

Wow, it is so refreshing to see a thread like this.  No ego getting in the way and the true sharing of information, without a lot of BS to get in the ay.  Thanks Bart and Funkster (among others) for all the great information shared here.

Jeez, I've been studying with Joe M. for the past six years. Mr. Gladstone taught the natural rebound and finger control. These techniques expanded upon what Mr. Stone had earlier taught Joe. Joe said Mr. Gladstone's teachings tied everything together for him.  

There are such grandoise explanations on the Moeller technique which is basically a whipping motion. This is different from Mr. Gladstone's teachings, which was all about the natural rebound and utilizing the fingers.

From what I have seen the 'Gladstone' technique uses the natural motion of the stick by just simply throwing it at the drum without tension in the wrist hands and fingers and letting the rebound bring the stick back up. 3 different heights for different for different volumes and that's more or less it.

Now as I have been taught Moeller the downstroke part involves stopping the stick immediately after striking the drum by squeezing the fingers and then using a wrist motion (up stroke) in preparation for the next stroke.  Tiger Bill it seems is against this principle or stopping the stick against the will of the natural motion and then to waste energy in using a separate motion to bring the stick back up.

When I play the classic 4-4 grove (only a beginner)I'm told to use up, tap and down strokes on the height hat and to me this does seem like extra work compared to just throwing the stick to the drum letting it naturally rebound.

However Moeller sounds really cool for rudiments around the kit for different dynamic levels and so I think it is a case of different tools for different jobs as Mr. Famularo would say, cest la ve.

Plowboy,
You are obviously closer to the source than me, but it sounds like your statements are consistent with what I've been trying to say.  (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.)   BTW, hope I haven't made anything sound  grandoise.  That wasn't my intention.  I've only been trying to explain to the best of my ability what I think of as Gladstone technique and Moeller.  Thanks for the input.  

I have a question on all this.  The Art Verdi/Danny Gottleib (Dom is no slouch either) guys that really get lots and lots of speed- all semantics aside and lets say your are just going for really fast singles.  Is this all done in the fingers  and a free bounce (allthough timed differently as opposed to playing a double stroke) and can you (or should?) one use a slight lift or push of the wrist (palms down and or "thumb up" matched grip for argument's sake) for added momentum on the downstroke?  Any thoughts?  Or is the Gladstone / Morello technique a fingers only.  And the question really is, what technique will let you play the fastest with the least amount of effort?

Moeller stroke can be used without stopping the stick after the striking if there is another stroke who folow, just like the Gladstone technique : if you hit just one stroke with Gladstone technique after you have to tighten you finger to not let the stick fall .

At least that's what i understand , pro here can comfirm  ;)

I think your explanation of Moeller may  lead to further confusion.  You seem to indicate there is squeezing, stopping and tension in the Moeller stroke.   This is not the case.  Moeller utilizes relaxation, fluidity and constant motion.  For further evidence check out Dom's book, Chapin's video, Morello's video, and Dom's and Chapin's clips on the Vic Firth website.  

At any rate, I doubt that Tiger Bill is opposed to the Moeller Stroke.  I took a lesson from him and we discussed it in some detail.  Moeller is just an additional tool in your arsenal.  As I've pointed out in previous posts, Moeller can utilize the relaxation learned in the Free Stroke (Gladstone approach).  The conepts are not mutually exclusive.  To state that Tiger Bill is against Moeller simply because his article is about the Free Stroke (and not attempting to describe Moeller) is not accurate.  

This shouldn't so difficult!!  

Felix, if speed is what your looking for you should take a stroll over to the WFD website:

http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/

The top two in the world Jotan Afanador with 1,199 single strokes in 1 minute and Mike Mangini with 1,180 have 2 different techniques.  You can watch both Jotan and Mike playing from the videos on that website.  If you notice Jotan's playing he is very relaxed and uses all fingers -- it almost looks effortless.  However, when you watch Mike's playing you can see that he is straining with all his strength from shoulders down in order to force his muscles to vibrate at that speed and he does not use fingers.  I had a long conversation personally with Tiger Bill about this very thing and he was the one that let me in on this information.  It appears as though you can produce great speed using sheer muscle, but it obviously makes more sense to do it as relaxed as possible so that you don't wear yourself completely out as you can see Mike doing.  Can you imagine doing that at a gig?  -- you wouldn't last 2 songs.  

So the answer to your question Felix, using only the fingers and being relaxed is the smartest and best way to achieve the quickest speeds.  Jotan proves this with his world record.

well I always try to look at it like this: Moeller is really a motion thing, mainly using your underarm and wrist; while Gladstone is more fingercontrol related.

If you don't care, why waste bandwidth vainly responding to (and thus giving prominence to) this thread? Perhaps you ought to be off developing the "Felix technique" (i.e. doing nothing) so those of us interested in this conversation can read it without having to scroll through your periodic negative sniping.

There is nothing wrong with new posters - or even people who have only recently (again) been exposed to/become interested in the Moeller and Gladstone technique(s) - hashing out a little detail if it results in more information being exchanged about these potentially helpful approaches.

My experience with them has produced empirical evidence that they do work and can help some drummers develop speed, control and accuracy. If more people get the chance to think about/implement these techniques because of a thread like this, I think that's a positive thing for all of us.

Thanks to Bart, Funkster, and all the others for wading through this issue in such depth.  Working to create common language/understanding is tough slugging, but good work. The bits quoted from Famularo's book etc. are helpful as are all your explanations of your personal experiences with these techniques and the results.

Funkster, I wasn't referring to your comments. I just remeber some other threads about the Moeller technique as well as John Riley's (a former student of Joe's) write-up in MD about the Moeller technique. Some drummers try to turn this technique into rocket science.

For maximum speed Joe suggests fingers only which is only a piece of the Gladstone technique, but obviously there is more than one way to get there. The bottom line is staying relaxed no matter what technique or application you use.

One other thing that Joe teaches and that is also part of the Gladstone technique is the open-closed technique, where you can get two strokes from every downstroke. The wrist (and arm) produces the first stroke and the fingers produce the second stroke. The key is getting both strokes to sound the same.  This is a great technique for playing singles at speeds/tempos that are faster than what the wrists alone can produce.

You talk about what Dave Weckl explain for play double stroke on his old video " Back to basic " or the open close technique of Gordy Knudtson ? ( same name btw ) ?

The open-close technique is what I was referring to. Joe told me about Gordy's video and how he was showing in the video, one of Mr. Gladstone's techniques. The funny part according to Joe was that Gordy did not realize that this was a technique taught bt Mr. Gladstone.

Either way, the open-close technique or whatever you would like to call it does work.

Plowboy,
If you get a chance check out the new open/close thread.  Bart spun off a new thread on just this subject.  I had a couple of questions.  

Later.

Free stroke from Gladstone , open/close too , you said "one of Mr. Gladstone's techniques" is there another technique from Mr Glasdtone we can learn ?  :)

Moeller is better!!

Another technique is the finger stroke. Which is using just the fingers. There are a lot of other drummers who play and teach this technique. It is not exclusive to Mr. Gladstone.

BTW Scott, why not be proficient at both methods? They can be utilized together.

Thank's Plowboy for all thoses information you given to us about Gladstone technique on this thread  :D

You're very welcome. I'm still very much a work in progress with all of these techniques.

Plowboy , the finger technique of Gladstone was used Palms down or sideways ?

The hands are open or in a French grip position, but you can also close your hands slightly if that works better for you.

Open close = Gladstone, Joe Morello called Gordy Knutson on it and he admitted that it was.

It is a useful technique and basically the point of this discussion is to know as much as you can about these methods so @ a gig, you don't have to go "ok, now I'm going to use moeller whips, ok, now I'll use fingers, now I'll use "push pull", now I'll use free stroke"

Just use whatever it takes to make a song sound good and leave your hands free from shock, stress, and callouses.

The Moeller and Gladstone methods best work in combination with each other.

As for fingers, Chapin's Moeller doesn't use them, Joe Morellos "modified Moeller" does. It's how Joe did his "one-handed roll",  It was nothing but accented triplets played as wrist-finger-finger.

Tigerbill said he mostly uses "modified Moeller" in a "Modified French grip" (or what Dom Famularo would call "American grip" on the drumset. The free stroke is to teach looseness and break your desire to pull the stick up when you should be throwing it down as fast as possible.

The G L Stone technique is basically using the 3 levels of the free stroke/Gladstone to create accents. Accents come from height, not force.

Also, to the person who said Jotan Afanador uses fingers, he doesn't. Well, technically he does, because the sticks have to be held, but he uses a "shaking vibration" technique, which he told me @ Tigerbill's recent clinic was a motion similar to "turning a doorknob." He was extremely loose, and I was able to pull the sticks out of his hands as he was doing it. IT works, but I recommend learning the basics first.

H-Bomb

Hi domnjozz , you seem Very well informed with the best teacher  :D , about what you said i'll have a question : i do use this American grip you talked and the finger for unaccented stroke , now i'am working on the Gary Chaffe book Sticking Patterns and when i have several finger stroke to do the stick have tendency to have a bad angle , I try to explain : the natural movement of the finger if perfect for French grip not for American grip , to give you a example of how my finger stroke look like when have several finger stroke to do in american grip imagine that , play several finger stroke in French grip, then while still playing finger stroke  turn you wrist to have American grip , the angle of the stick follow the angle of the wirst , so  how to have correct finger stroke with right angle using American grip ?

Thank's    ;)