DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

I've recently been jamming with a few percussion players and would like some insight as to what I should be focusing on as a drummer.  I understand I need to keep the beat down and lock into the bass even more now to let the percussion fill in the spaces but when do I focus more on the rythmic patterns of the percussion and lock in with him?  Which drumming/percussive pairings should I listen to for ideas?

Thanks.

Are you asking which drum/percussion duos to listen to ... as in famous drummer & percussionist teams?

As far as working with a percussionist, the big thing is to listen to each other and work together as a team. Leave space for each other, and don't mimic each other's parts ... compliment them. This seems to be a hard concept with younger players, but it's the most important thing to keep in mind ... in my opinion.

Style genres are too wide and varied for me to give specific "do's and don'ts" ... so you'll have to be more specific.

Great topic!

Call me arrogant, but I think that typically the percussionist should weave around the drums, not the other way around (of course there are exceptions to everything). I'm sure Bartman might have a few thing to say about that drummer-centric point of view!!!

Don't compete, though. What I mean is don't play things that clash with the perc.
Say the percussionist is playing steady 16ths on a tamborine -- I would likely not play 16ths on the hi-hat, too busy.

Perhaps the song is perfect for a solid conga pattern -- then I would not play a tom pattern, but rather stick to a brass based one (unless we were looking for an african type feel).

If the song calls for a tom based pattern, then I recommend that the percusionist do the bright work, e.g. cabasa, shaker, tamborine, etc.

Percussionists can be a HUGE asset -- if they know what they're doing. If not, they can throw off the timing for other musicians who might be hearing them better than the drummer.

The only thing I can add to Bart's great comments is to be aware of the types of sounds both you and your percussionist are using - if he's playing shaker on a tune, you may or may not want to play sixteenth-notes on the hi-hat, for instance - you have to make that creative decision ("is it redundant, or does it sound good to double that sixteenth-note rhythm with the shaker and hi-hat?")  If he's playing congas, maybe avoid using your toms excessively.  Don't just find rhythms that complement his rhythms, but also find timbres and pitches (well, "indefinite pitches" at least!) to compliment his, and he should be seeking to compliment your playing in the same way.

Some drum/percussion pairings (and representative recordings) I'd suggest checking out:

• Steve Gadd and Ralph MacDonald - Grover Washington Jr.'s "Winelight," Tom Scott's "Apple Juice," Paul Simon's "One Trick Pony," among many others.  Both are exceedingly tasteful players.
  
  
• Steve Gadd and Paulinho da Costa - Al Jarreau's "Tenderness."
  
  
• Steve Gadd and a host of Brazilian percussionists (Sidinho Moreira, Mingo Araujo, Cyro Baptista, Dom Chacal:  the Central Park Concert from Paul Simon's "Rhythm Of The Saints" tour.  (Yes, I know it's heavily influenced by Brazilian and African music, but still, to get four percussionists and a drummer to work together that well in a pop context - and not sound like an explosion in the drum department of Sam Ash - is an amazing accomplishment, IMHO)
  
  
• Alex Acuña and Mañolo Badrena - "Heavy Weather" by Weather Report
  
  
• Lenny White and Airto on some of the early Return To Forever records
  
  
• various Pat Metheny Group recordings, including: "Travels" (Danny Gottlieb, Nana Vasconcelos); "Still Life (Talking)" (Paul Wertico, Armando Marcal)
  
  
• In a "pop" context, find something live from Madonna's tours, with Omar Hakim on drums, and Luis Conte on percussion.  (Omar, Luis, Victor Bailey on bass...forget the Madonna concert, I want to hear the sound check!!!)
  
  
• Jaco Pastorius' "Word Of Mouth" band (esp. the smaller group), with Don Alias on percussion and Peter Erskine on drums.
  
  
• A hard-to-find one:  see if you can track down an old video or CD titled "Chroma," with Dennis Chambers on drums and Mino Cinelu on percussion.

I'm sure I'll think of a half-dozen more as soon as I hit the "post" button here...

Excellent points James. I was going to get into the sound texture issue ... but since we didn't address a specific style genre, I just stayed away from it. I was trying to cover it when I said "don't mimic each other's parts".  This meaning rhythm as well as sound texture. Certainly there is exceptions to the rule, but that should be a basic approach. So I agree completely with you James.

I also think James made a nice list of drum/perc duos to listen to. I was hoping someone would do this ... as I just didn't have the energy to do it myself. LOL

With what Daddy-O said, I would have to say that in Pop music this is generally true. But sometimes the percussionist is driving the music, not the drummer. Therefore, the drums have to weave THEIR parts around the percussion. This would especially be true in styles where the drumset is not native to the genre ... such as traditional Latin styles.

Also, even in Pop music, if the percussionist is creating a "perc loop" ... a bed with which the rest of the band is playing to, the drums have to weave around this. Complimenting what's there, not stepping all over it.

So, it goes both ways really. It depends on the sound you are going for, and the genre of the music. For the average band or situation, I would say that the percussion is enhancing what the drums are doing.

Listen to the duos that James Walker mention. You'll hear every variation possible. Sometimes the drums lead, sometimes the percussion, and sometimes they are EQUAL ... acting as ONE VOICE!!!  Personally, I try to think "one voice" when I play drums or percussion ... it doesn't matter. I want to blend and make it so that we sound like ONE PERSON. It's a rare thing to find this type of relationship between a drummer & percussionist. You can compare it to the "holy grail" of the rhythm section ... the drummer and bassist duo acting and sounding as one.

I toured with a latin pop/salsa band two years ago, I had to drum along with three other percussionist, I pretty much just stayed in the pocket for most songs, some songs aloud me to do more but for the majority of the songs the other three percussionist (timbales, congas, bongos) pretty much drove the song.  It's not as hard to find your place as one may think, just remember to keep the playing to a minnimum so that you don't clash with the others.

Good point as well.

I always say "the more people in the band, the less you need to play".