DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

I am a professional drummer in The South Louisiana area, I stay very busy playing cover shows. I know its not the most ideal gig but it pays the bills. Anyway, when I ask other musicians what playing qualities I have that keeps me gigging, They all say  that Im a very deep pocket player. This is definately a compliment, no doubt, But I definately DO NOT have pro Chops. Im entertaining the thought of moving to a bigger music scene like possibly nashville to try to get more productive gigs. Now my question is, on that next level, How do chops compare to pocket playing. Could I work in a larger music scene by being a pocket player, and not having incredible speed or chops. Thanks for the reply. oh by the way, Great site. Kudos to Bartman and everyone else for their post.

Pocket, Pocket, Pocket!

In Nashville .... it's all about Pocket (and relationships). If you can make the music feel good ... that's all that's important 99% of the time. Being a professional player as you are, I think you know this. Chops are great, but never at the expense of the groove or pocket.

I have to say that I don't know very many people who get calls because they can solo like "so-and-so" or have the best chops in town. If you've got the whole package, that's awesome. I think Dan Wojciechowski (here in Dallas) is just that. He's got an incredible pocket, incredible chops, and is an incredible human being. He's got it all (hope he doesn't read this; he might get a big head).

You can have the best chops in town, but if you are a total jerk to work with ... well, you won't last long in the big city!

Congratulations to YOU for making a career in music! Also, welcome to the Drummer Cafe!

should be the same in every avenue of music.  chops are merely a vehicle to further express feel.  

bozzio has chops seeping out of his every pore.  but listen to his work with polytown (david torn, mick karn, sorry, the only bozzio work im really familiar with) he keeps the focus on feel.  and when he pulls out the chops they are only usefull because they accent the vibe and the song.  

the fancy stuff is useless if you cant nail the feel first.  

I understand what both of you are saying, but im just wondering if i can work on that next level with just mainly feel, and not much chops.

Chops may get you noticed, they may even get you hired for that first gig...but groove and pocket will get you called back for the next gig!!!

If you've got the pocket happening, you're already ahead of 75% of the drummers I hear (and work with).  Chops will come in time - get in the practice room and woodshed if you want to improve your technical facility.  It will allow you to increase your musical vocabulary, it will allow you to play things you might not be able to play right now...but it won't really get you any more work...at least, it won't increase your standing and stature among working musicians.  

My experience (based on conversations with other musicians) has been that players with groove are admired; players with groove and chops are greatly admired; players with chops and no groove are dismissed out of hand...(or worse, after a few beers...)

As in:  "...Yeah, he's got chops to burn, but his time stinks; I can't work with him..."

(IMHO, YMMV, FWIW, etc., etc., etc.)

Isn't the goal to be able to do both?

That's my goal anyways.

I'm with felix.  Gotta do both!

Ask B.B. King about that...or Jim Keltner.

It depends how one defines "chops" - if "chops" means control of one's instrument, then yes, I agree 100% that both are vital.  If "chops" means being able to tear it up a la Cobham/Weckl/Colaiuta/Beauford (et al)...I don't think that's as important as an ability to groove, not in terms of getting gigs.

As always, YMMV.

yeah, the goal is to do both.  but where should your priorities be?  i think most are just saying the feel needs to come first, then the chops.  dont sacrifice feel for flash you know.

You all read into things way too much. OF COURSE the goal is to be able to do both. But all im trying to figure out if I can move to nashville as of today, and get work without lightning fast speed. Something that probabally only people that have been in that scene or a similar one can answer.
 
Just an observation, but It seems like old Felix, always has to say something (normally negative) about everything. But if you have all of the answers, why are you playing in an alley with an audience of dumpsters.
Just a thought ;D

hey ratamatatt, it was a rhetorical question :)  i know where my priorities are: feel, creativity, sound, chops.  in that order, though they are necessarily independant of one another ;)

but thanks for answering :)

I don't know Nashville, but based on my experiences in Chicago and up here in Connecticut...

The short answer is:  "yes."

The longer answer:  of course, I'm sure you realize that there's going to be a transitional period, as there always is whenever one relocates to a new market and tries to get established.  So, you may not be able to get work "today," but...it won't be a lack of "lightning speed" that's the culprit, just the nature of becoming established in a market.

IMHO, etc.

I LIKE YOU

Good luck in Nashville...I'm sure you will have all the chops you need....  Maybe see Bart's explanation of "Nashville Notation"

I think I take issue with the Vs. in the headline. It's not one element versus the other. Both are necessary, although I'd agree that the pocket takes precidence over chops.

It seems there's a theme here that chops are somehow this thing that gets you noticed and is there for show. Maybe this is true for jazz, but not for 95% of the music you'll get called upon to play. To me, the value of chops is in giving you the ability to accomplish something when called upon to do it. This is my goal in improving my chops. I don't want them for flash, because I'm not into flash. I want chops so that if someone asks me "that was good, but can you try doing X and X as a lead in to the B section?" I don't ever want to have to reply "no."

Felix can be a tool, but  I learned to roll with him.  When you get past the arrogance and attitude, he can impart a nugget or two of knowledge  ;)  I will have to say I'm a little jealous of the "audience of dumpsters" crack.  That had me LMAO.  Wish I had thought of it last week when I had my go around with him  :)  

Lets get this straight, I dont have a problem with felix, I just disagree with a lot of his opinions, Oh and I get jealous when someone is more of a smart a** than me ;D

Felix is my kinda smartass because he's funny, and he can take it as much as he dishes it out. This board wouldn't be the same without him.

:)

Yeah, you newbies have to realize opinions are healthy and encouraged here.  

We all learn stuff from each other and get better.  We don't have to like each other, just sorta respect each other (but not too much  ;D)

For instance...I personally can't stand "the rat" but once in awhile (like projectile vomit) he spews little nuggets of great info.  I never would have thought of playing left foot clave with funk patterns.

Thanks Rat (actually I should dislike you more because those patterns are killing me!)

What, you can't play left foot clave w/ a funk pattern?  Geez, what are you, some kind of rookie?   :)  It's all about the sharing of knowledge.  I have learned more in this forum in a month then in a years worth of reading and lessons.  If it wasn't for different opinions, the world would be like stale Wonder bread.  And that's just bad, man 8)  Just kidding about the left foot, BTW, it is killing me too.

Hey there - a drummer that Bartman and I know in Nashville by the name of Paul Leim is probably the best answer to your question - Paul is the workenest drummer there, studio-wise anyway and why is he hired? Because of that FEEL. Paul told me once that he had lunch with Dave Weckl and was in awe of his chops ability. He doesn't have the chops of Weckl (although he CAN get around the set very good), but he's hired for feel and flawless execution within that feel. So, go ahead and work on your chops but keep that framework of the feel inside of it. I lived in Nashville for 10 years, had my own studio and know the drummer scene VERY WELL. There are LOTS of drummers there, good and VERY good. So, be prepared to be persistent if you go there and take all of Bartman's advice about networking and BEING NICE TO PEOPLE. blessings.

There are so many elements that go into getting steady work, which is really the question being raised here. It's not just an issue of chops and the pocket. Like folks are saying, you also have to be easy to be around.

One other thought about becoming a successful studio drummer (which I'm not :) ): you've got to have the instinct to come up with just the right part for the song. A lot of time you're not going to have advance knowledge of songs, a CD to listen to beforehand, or even charts. You may walk in, the producer will play you a recording, say "this is part A, part B and part C" and you've got to be able to come up with options that make the producer happy. And especially in Nashville, you've got to come up with them quickly. The place can be a bit like a factory from what I understand. So you have to have an instinct for what's needed for the song, often right on the spot.

I'll take paul liem's feel and pocket over weckl's chops and overplaying any day.   ;)

I always thought " the weck " had a great feel.

Weckl.  Another convert to the organic method being taught by Freddy Gruber.  Listen to his groove back in the Chick Corea Electrik Band circa 1987 as opossed to now.  HUGE difference.

whenever i see that name i get all stoked because i think someones actually talking about fredy studer ... then i see im wrong and i get dissappointed :(

Sorry.  Whose Freddy Studer?

did someone say something?  ;)  

anyway, fredy (one 'd') is a bit of an avant gardist.  a lot of improv, new music etc.

http://www.fredystuder.ch/

I didn't hear you?  :)

I hope nobody took my comments on Dave Weckl & Paul Leim the wrong way, I wasn't saying that Dave Weckl doesn't have an incredible groove, HE DOES, but my point was that you don't HAVE to have incredible CHOPS to live in Nashville to get hired (although MOST, not ALL, of the heavy hitters in Nashville have a good amount of chops to go along with their GROOVE factor). Most of the heavy session players play in jazz or fusion bands that play LIVE around town and they can STRETCH out a bit more than in the studio...vent those chops a bit  :). If you're really concerned about your chops, don't be, I've seen guys that have taken their chops from average to excellent in a period of a year because they just put in the time. So, be glad you have the POCKET, because so many drummers don't.....  ;D

Pocket is definitely where it's at. Don't get me wrong, chops are great too and they require dexterity and skill but, so does pocket. I like the players who are all about playing the groove. They seem to display a maturity & discipline in what they do yet, play something creatively and most importantly, tastefully.

Can a drummer have deep pocket with some players and a crappy pocket with holes in it with other players?

I'm inclined to say yes.  But I don't really know.

Or should a truly great drummer just have a magically deep pocket with every musician within 100 feet?

IF one plays pocket pool does that help the pocket or hurt it?  I wish my pockets were lined with wabbit fur.
Then I would have my gloves and pockets lined with wabbit fur.  

I think a good band is essential to deep wabbit pocketed drumming.   The band needs to let the music breath and move the same as we do.   If the band sucks-  I feel as though my hands are tied.   The good players make it so easy.

Great point Felix! I agree completely. The whole band is responsible for being in the pocket, just that the drummer needs to drive it.

(btw, this new Felix is freaking me out a bit. "...inclined to say yes." Bart, you'd better check that this is actually the same guy using this handle.  :) )

Ok, I thought I'd be nice to the newbies around here...let me paraphrase that:

Don't you "pro's" know anything?  I've been kicked out of bands for not "grooving" and have been replaced by A1 session players.  Guess what?  The band liked my groove better- HAH!..._{I quit anyways because- you guessed it!  They sucked.}

Anyways, it's tough being right all the time.

But the great thing about this thread everyone is going to be paranoid now about their groove- GOOD.

I think it's Ironic how when one is young you tend to think it's all about chops, but as the years pass you by you reallize that's it's groove that gets you the call back,
Felix stop being nice, you're scaring the kids ;D

Back to the original question...I'm gathering that "chops" refers to technical ability, while "pocket" refers to musicality--how well you can play exactly what the song needs. Am I on the right track?

 Lots of talk re: feel. I've always found that interesting. My other passion is riding horses, riding and training natural horsemanship (the horse-whisperer stuff)--and the basics are "feel, timing, and balance." You hear that over and over again in a clinic. I think my drumming and my riding have improved b/c of each other. 8)

Pocket is essential.  Gotta have it.  For some kinds of music, that's all you need, and all the band and audience wants.

Chops are fun, worth working on, makes drumming more interesting, and essential for some kinds of music.  You must be able to apply these chops without losing the pocket.  That's my rule, anyway.

If someone in your band has a time problem, it's going to be a pain in the ass, and you may get undeserved credit for their lack of timing.  The only thing I know to do in that situation is play real loud and real simple.  If you're louder than the person who is screwing up, listeners may not notice it too much.  

Best of course is a band with seasoned musicians who understand the need for pocket themselves.  Then, it's easy, and you can even throw some of those cool chops in without worrying about derailing the train.

im currently playing in a guitar/piano/drums trio (me on drums ;)) and the pianist was classically trained and brought a lot of the time bending thats required for that to the table with our band.  so for us the 'pocket' the 'groove' isnt even so much about keeping good time, as much as it is keeping good vibe.  and i tell ya, for a guy that prides himself on his internal metronome, it can get tricky :)

It just blows me away how everything keeps going in circles.

When I first started playing drums it was all I could do to play steady LOL now it's like "ok" lets bend the time.

Actually I think music sounds much better when it has an elastic quality!!!!!  But, man you really have to know what you are doing.  

thats why time bending is so prominent in classical music. its highly narrative and those slight tempo changes really help cement the feel of a part.  

as for knowing what youre doing? well, i just listen.  ive spent the last few years working on free improv in small combo situations and it really helped develop my ear.  with nothing written all you have to go on is what the others are doing :)  so as long as i can hear the rest of the band, those slight slow downs and speed ups arent to tricky.  

Yes you can!  Remember!  Chops, solos, and fills, are for drummers.  The pocket is for records and gainfully employed live entertainers who want to stay gainfully employed! ;)

Chops are great to utilize.  Like someone said about accenting the beats and music, that is an excellent use for them.  Otherwise just doing banaza on the drums isn't that appealing.

Chops are great to utilize.  Like someone said about accenting the beats and music, that is an excellent use for them.  Otherwise just doing on the drums isn't that appealing.  ???

"Chops are fun, worth working on, makes drumming more interesting, and essential for some kinds of music.  You must be able to apply these chops without losing the pocket.  That's my rule, anyway."

"Back to the original question...I'm gathering that "chops" refers to technical ability, while "pocket" refers to musicality--how well you can play exactly what the song needs. Am I on the right track?"  

"I think it's Ironic how when one is young you tend to think it's all about chops, but as the years pass you by you reallize that's it's groove that gets you the call back,"

Well that pretty much sums it up for me!  I've played just about every style of music professionally for 17 years and I'm still workin' on how to keep good time and figure out how to enhance the song with tasteful fills.  Problem is...I usually figure out what I should have done after the record is in the stores.  I guess you never really learn how to play the drums, you just keep workin on them.

B1

Pocket is where it's at.

My favorite Nashville session drummer is Eddie Bayers. After Larrie Londin's death he assumed the role of most-recorded drummer in town, at some points being on almost every song in the Top Ten simultaneously!

But he's not your typical Weckl/Vinnie/Gadd chopsmonster. He was a piano player that switched to drums in his early twenties or late teens (foggy on my history), and I've never heard him play anything faster than a mid-tempo 16th note. Ever.

But he makes songs sound SOOOOOO good. That's what it's about. And evidently many artists and producers agree - that's why he's the first-call guy.

There are styles of music that require significant chops, particularly in instrumental music. But for the most part, our gig is to make songs sound good, to make bands sound good, and to make singers feel good. Sounds like you've got the right stuff. Anything you add at this point is icing on the cake. Good luck!