Drummer Cafe Community Forum

I know that buddy rich is considered by many to be the best drummer that ever lived. I am not trying to  stir things up, but I just want to see why people think that. I have watched many videos and it all seems the same: he's got fast hands, has a bunch of tricks, and can swing, but beyond that I can't see where all the talk comes from. I find his solos repetive and overall boring, as they are comprised mostly of fast "ratta-tat-tat" snare drum playing. It seems like he's not trying to make a musical statement so much as to just impress people with his chops, and by that standard, I think he would be eaten alive by guys like virgil donati who are much better (in my opinion) at the pure chops thing. I also find it funny that many drummers who criticize the pursuit of speed are the first to say, "look at how fast buddy could play!" I have heard that he had an extraordinary ability to learn songs by memory after a single hearing among other things, but I just want to know: what do people see in buddy rich that is so amazing? This not an attack, this is just a question from someone who is puzzled at being out of the loop on this. Please teach me  :-\

I think you needed to have seen him live. He was literally unbelievable. And if you listen to the way he kicks and supports a big band, his skill was without peer. Other, more understated drummers have also sounded great with big bands, but I've NEVER heard anybody drive a big band like Buddy.

Unfortunately, many of the Buddy Rich videos available just focus on the same thing - big showstopping solos with brutally fast snare work. But listen to some of his records, where he's just playing kickass music with a kickass big band, and you may start getting the picture.

The other thing to consider is that much of what he did, he did FIRST. Nobody had approached jazz or swing the way he had. Krupa had explored the showmanship angle, and guys like Kenny Clarke and Max Roach began to explore independence. But Buddy took this hyperactive force of his, and put so much forward momentum into his music, always while swinging his ass off. Other drummers like Louie Bellson, Roy Burns, Butch Miles, and Barrett Deems explored the highly technical approach to jazz drumming, but I really think Buddy pioneered it.

It helps if you like the kind of music he played, which I do. If it just sounds like old-fart stuff to you, you'll have a hard time appreciating his artistry.

I don't think anyone could have stated that better. If you never saw the man live, doing what only he could do, you never saw the best.

He swings like a mofo, I'll say that. You are right too, big band jazz isn't my cup of tea really. I just don't see the leap from best big band drummer -----> best drummer ever.

I will reiterate you ,,had to see him. My Dad took me to see him a big club in Century City in L.A. I have seen many drummers in my day many of the best and in someways the best at what they did. But Buddy was just incredible I have never seen anything like it before or since. He knew my Old Man was in the audiance so he really laid it on. I have to disagree with youabout musicallity. I think and my Old Man would back it up that he was very, very musical, Yeah sometimes he lacked a little restraint and taste but man there was only one Buddy Rich and there will never be another like him. Listen to all the young famous rock guys talk about him, they don't do it for nothing. When you saw him you new if you were a drummer he could just do it all. My Old Man got mixed up in a drum battle with Buddy, Max Roach, and Gene Krupa and you are talking about some pretty good drummers. His comment is Buddy just made them look like baby's in diapers and all they could do at the end was just stand up and applaud him. He also said you just did not want to get mixed up in a drum battle with this guy Period.


Just my experiance

Bob Levey

Well, part of it falls under the category of what have they contributed? Buddy Rich pioneered an approach to not only soling, but to accompaniment. So far the "uber-chops" drummers like Virgil Donati and Thomas Lang have not had any real impact on any musical genre; neither of them are on any records that have had any significant impact on any musical genres. They are great technicians, but have yet to leave any real mark on music.

Buddy played with the greatest musicians of his era, making many memorable recordings. So far, Virgil and Thomas' greatest work has been on solo instructional videos.

And while I've not seen Lang live, I have seen Buddy and Virgil Donati more than once each. Virgil bored me to tears - until his solo. He's an astonishing soloist - no question about it. But as a drummer in his specific genre - rock or fusion, depending on what you want to call it - he was incredibly generic when he wasn't soloing.

On the other hand, I've seen Buddy with big bands, and with a symphony orchestra. In all cases, he left me with my jaw on the floor, whether he was soloing or simply accompanying the rest of the musicians.

Can Virgil move his arms and legs faster and/or in more complex patterns than Buddy? Perhaps. But has he - or any of the recent crop of chopsmeisters - made a similar impact on music in the style(s) that he plays? Not yet - not by a long shot.

To put this into perspective, know that Bob's dad - Stan Levey - is a famous jazz drummer who played on many landmark recordings.


Bottom line: Buddy was the real deal. But he was definitely a stylist: he played jazz and swing, not rock, punk, or fusion.

But as a fan of virtually all styles of music , I can say this: Buddy is the greatest drummer *I've* ever seen.

I guess this is where we ask, "what defines the best drummer in the world."

I'm not saying donati and lang are the best drummers in the world, I just think they beat rich for chops. I can't argue with rich's influence and innovation, I was speaking only from a purely playing standpoint. My reasoning is that when judging a drummer's playing ability, you should only look at just the playing, not the record sales. There could be drummers we've never heard of who play in their basement in the middle of nowhere who are amazing but just aren't well known. I know many examples of people that blow my mind but are literal nobodies. So, by my standards, buddy is a fantastic big band drummer, but not worthy of "the best drummer ever."

Virgil's music bores me as well, but when I see him play, I feel he has more technical facility on the instrument than rich, which does NOT make him a better drummer. Virgil did not revolutionize jazz, but he could sure whip buddy in a drum battle I'd think. Could he play big band jazz? That's another issue.

Simple - I don't bother, because there's no such thing, any more than there's one "best" flavor of ice cream. It's purely a subjective opinion.

But I've still never seen anybody better than Buddy


I'm not talking about record sales - Peter Criss and Rikki Rockett have sold more records than Buddy by far. What I'm talking about is playing significant music. So far, Donati and Lang have not - in my opinion.



Absolutely. There's no shortage of talent out there. But drummers who play only in their basements don't attract my interest - I want to hear drummers play music, with other musicians.

Also, while guys like Donati may have amazing physical prowess, I don't hear them improvising with the depth and skill of drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta. Can Donati move his limbs faster than Vinnie? Perhaps. Is he even half the musician Vinnie is? Not in my book.


Fair enough - in your opinion he's not. So who is?


Having seen them both live, I disagree. Virgil might play things that are theoretically more complex, but Buddy would blow him off the stage with sheer power, showmanship, and overall style.

Virgil's great- don't get me wrong. But he needs to start learning how to be a performing musician, not just a drum soloist waiting for his five minutes of spotlight. Again, just an opinion.

I'll jump on the "listen to the albums NOT just the solos" bandwagon.  Now if listening to albums in that genre is not your norm or "in your comfort zone", or you find them yawners, you might not (be able to) pick up on the subtleties that make them so great.

Sort of like people who watch a Drum Corps show and think it's just another marching band.

The whole "best drummer" thing is just BS. It's hard to compare apples to oranges. Rich was a big band drummer, Lang is a rock drummer more or less. How do you compare the two? They are 2 completely different genres. Like Mr. Acrolite said, Lang has amazing chops, but can most people name one record he has played on?  I only know him from his dvd, which is basically him showing off his amazing chops. I always hear how awesome Mike Portnoy is. To me, he has incredible chops, but the bands music bores me to tears.. it has no soul, just many time changes. Rich is probably THE most influential drummer EVER. It doesn't mean he is the best ever (which many argue he is), but he has influenced more drummers than anyone, even more than Bohnam.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it is all a matter of taste when it comes to the best drummer category.

Great thread, interesting points,  however, having grown up listening to Buddy Rich I tend to agree with the statements put forth by Mr. A. Mr. A has pointed out all of Buddy's musical merits. While I agree, the thing that does it for me is the visceral impact his stuff has on me.

In the past month I've not been playing at all but have done a ton of listening to a lot of stuff. From Pantera ( Vinnie Paul rocks) to Phil Woods. A good portion of it is Buddy and my 2nd favorite Big Band guy, Louis Bellson. Truth be told Louie is quicker, used more finese and dynamics with his finger technique (which was pretty innovative at the time I believe), utilized more intricate stickings (his version of "Time Check" is even fast than Buddy's!) and also composed many of his own songs (to favorable reviews by Basie and Duke Ellington).  I recognize and appreciate all that Louis B. has contributed, but for some reason I get a bit more of a jolt in my gut when I hear Buddy play. There is a record he did during the 70s in Rochester NY, called "At the Top" I believe, amazing live record, at times it explodes with energy. Whether it was ego, pure talent or  a certain "Je ne sais pas," it is Buddy that I get the best vibe from. Obviously in a race of thoroughbreds it is a photo finish, but for me I tend to gravitate to Buddy.

Strangely when I got to music school, all the guys there were strict Jazz heads. I liked Buddy,  Tony Williams and Louis Bellson as well as John Bonham. they pretty much laughed at me and dismissed all of them. If it wasn't DeJohnette or Elvin it wasn't Jazz. I had nothing against JD & Elvin, just didn't have as many of their records. This was the first real musical snobbery I experienced but it had a negative effect on me for quite a while because I thought I was all wrong and it made me question my own style.  I'm so happy all these years later to be vindicated and see that all my early favorites are respected.

Buddy's playing always sounded really awesome to me- like better than anything else I've ever heard.  In fact, it's so great, I can't listen to his stuff much.

Just think how much better he would have been if he did indeed practice or have the learning facilities we have now?  

Na, Buddy is the one who will rule forever.  That's my opinion, guess I'm old school.

I missed seeing Buddy live. I wish I had.

But I have seen guys like Weckl and Chambers, who site Buddy as a main influence.

Maybe its better that I didn't see Buddy because my head was close to exploding from just seeing his disciples.  ;D

Newbeat, maybe you could get a better understanding of Buddy's playing by picking up an album or two of his and trying to play along with them. That might give you a better insight.

Just a thought.

I suspect all the hot/fastest drummers du jour will eventually fade away, while Buddy Rich will continue to be remembered.

I agree.  Who was 563's buddy *he he he* down in florida that's a buddy clone?  Anyone remember his name?  He was here for about a day and realized he was too good for this place.

I agree.  Louie B. is my favorite.  I always thought his drumming was more musical and interesting.  Buddy was more flamboyant   :D

Buddy was more flamboyant when fronting his own band, but the people were paying to see that, so he obliged.

Check out some of his recordings with Tommy Dorsey, Art Tatum, Harry James, and Artie Shaw, and you'll hear a consummate ensemble player.  On a disc with Tatum and Lionel Hampton Rich plays mostly with brushes and stays almost completely in the background, providing the base on which Hamp and Tatum build.

There's also an interesting recording of the Dorsey band with Frank Sinatra, where Buddy again is very much a part of the band.  I have video of him with James, and except for his solos is purely a sideman.

Even as a sideman he kicks the band like nobody else, though.  That to me is one of the things that make him the greatest.  Bands got better immediately when he played with them.  He brought a level of energy and sense of feel for the music that most drummers just wish they had.

I saw Rich when I was 19 and supremely confident that I could do anything I wanted to with drums.  That night showed me how wrong I was.  Nobidy else ever played with that combination of speed, control, and exquisite technique.

Most of the videos available are from late in Buddy's life.  Montreal 82 was filmed when he was 65 years old.  Consider that fact when watching that video.  Then sit down at your drums and see how long and how well you can play hitting just the tips of your sticks on the rim of your snare.

One anecdote from "Drummin' Men" bears repeating here.  "It was during an engagement by one of his early big bands at the Apollo Theater in Harlem.  He had broken his left arm in several places playing handball.  When the curtain opened and the band began playing its opening number, it wasn't  immediately apparent that anything unusual had occurred.  The drum set and the comparative darkness of the stage obstured the fact he had his left arm in a sling...Musically there didn't seem to be any difference; his feet and right hand did all the work.

When Rich came down front after the opening to make an announcement, there was a collective gasp heard in the theater, followed by the buzz of whispers.  The broken arm was hidden in a stylish sling, the same color as his jacket.  Rich made nothin of his disability and went about his business, ultimately causing a riot uptown, then downtown.  Drummer, indeed all sorts of musicians, came to Harlem and later visited the Paramount Theater on Broadway to witness still another aspect of Rich's freakish ability.

....The show came to a climax with Rich doing his famous 'Not So Quiet Please' number with one hand and his feet.  Legend has it that Basie drummer Jo Jones, after seeing the performance, quipped, 'If that arm heals, it ought to be broken again.'"

If I'm not mistaken, that series of recordings was considered by hard core Jazz aficionados to be his finest moment. I think even Max Roach was quoted as saying that in an old Down Beat Magazine from the 70s.

Of course it is. Which is why I don't think buddy should get the title.


That's fair.


Couldn't say.


I find that hard to believe- virgil may be just a technical wiz, but he's taken drumming's physical aspect to new heights and I honestly believe he's faster and more powerful than buddy was. If you have any doubt about the speed/power factors I have two video clips of virgil that show him doing things far above buddy in speed, dexterity, and power (which is not all that this is about, but I'm just proving my point.) The thing about virgil is that he has such a developed sense of coordination from doing all those multiple odd time paradiddle layering things that the guy is a literal drum computer. I have no doubt that vinnie and buddy could throw anything at him, and he could spit it right back out. He may not play jazz, but I think it would be untrue to say virgil has no feel either- they guy can groove. Putting it context, we're not matching virgil's odd time grooves with buddy's drum battle machine gun playing. If it got down and dirty, virgil's hands would do anything buddy's can. I honestly believe that.


I'm not trying to hoist virgil up as my end-all be all; I am just using him as an example of a drummer who exceeds buddy in a certain few areas that buddy is lauded at being unbeatable at. I don't care for virgil's music, and I also wish he would play in a more musical context, but you can't blame the man for doing what he loves and I think some of the things he's developed are insane.

Anyway, I think my question has been answered, and I see where you all are coming from. I just had a different perspective, and watching buddy videos, I would say to myself, "hey, so-and-so could do that...", but I was missing the point. I do respect buddy for his style, and I in no way intend to tarnish his reputation. I only think that his chops are a little bit glorified, and watching tapes, where it all is laid bare to careful scrutiny, I think buddy has been outdone in this day and age in terms of his "unbeatable" drum solos. His innovation and musicality remain as two pillars defining him as most likely the best at what he did, I was just curious at where he got the name of "best drummer ever". I would like to read your follow up to my latest post, but beyond that, I think it's best to agree to disagree now that I've gotten the point. Thanks,

I also think that Buddy had a real knack for choosing some very interesting arrangements of songs that really resonated with the audience. While he played a lot of traditional Jazz and ballads he also had in his ( band's) repertoire West Side Story, Ease on Down the Road (from The Wiz), Norwegian Wood and some others that were familiar to non Jazz fans. Some of those are fun to listen to for the general audience (popular acceptance) yet intricate and technically challenging   for musicians (musical credibility), that is no an easy combination, it doesn't happen too much today does it?

Also he was a good segment or 2 on a talk show because he was quite a character. I remember he and Mel Torme  appeared together when they were promoting something every once in a while and they spent most of the time digging on each other, it was really pretty funny.

So Buddy was almost comparable to Sinatra in that in additiion to be an immense talent he had a larger than life persona as well.

I think Buddy was great. I am too young to have grown up listening to him but I like listening to his stuff sometimes. I am not real big into the big band thing but I enjoy good musicianship in any style of music. He is not my personal favorite which is the criteria for greatest drummer ever (if the truth is told). In my opinion, the most overrated drummer of all time is Neal Peart but that is because I didn't grow up listening to him or hear all the innovations he did. If I had I would probably think differently about him. Now I think there are many guys who are better than him but I give him credit for starting it all. I do think he is good however, just not as good as many drummers think he is. These are all opinions and I expect that many don't agree with me. That's why I think it is so cool that there are so many different styles and musicians out there available to listen to so that we can all listen to what we enjoy listening to (unless we are stuck in a car listening to nasty country music like I was this weekend).

     What? Buddy Rich was taught at the age of two by Sanford Augustus Moeller and George Lawrence Stone! He was taught the best technique at two, I also have to disagree with Virgil Donati having faster hands then Rich, there's no way. I'm not obsessed with chops but Buddy Rish deserves all the respect people give him. He had fabulous technique; he was a strong leader and an aggressive drummer.  

     

Can his hands move as fast as Buddy's? Quite possibly. But would that make him as good or better? Not from what I've seen.

And that's what this keeps coming down to: what I've seen. I've seen Virgil live, and I've seen Buddy live. No comparison. Virgil had impressive solo chops. Buddy was a freakin' force of nature. Watching Buddy was literally life-changing. Watching Virgil simply made me think "wow, he sure must have practiced a lot."

And as far as Virgil handling anything Vinnie threw at him, again, maybe his limbs are capable of it. Is that all you judge in a drummer - what their limbs can do? I'm far more interested in their minds; their personalities. Vinnie has created a memorable body of work, to which he continues to add. Vinnie has blazed new trails in music, not just physical accomplishment. Same with Buddy. Vinnie's improvisational skills have a depth that just about NOBODY out there can touch. He's in a league with guys like Tony, Elvin, and DeJohnette, and in many ways, he's reaching beyond them. Virgil isn't in that league, not by a long shot.

Virgil just strikes me as a guy who's taught his arms and legs to do a bunch of stuff. I've seen him, and it didn't excite me. I've seen Buddy, and had my jaw on the floor. I've seen Vinnie, and had my brain explode.

It's all a matter of taste. But you keep asking, and I've got a perspective you don't, in that I've seen ALL of these guys live. And I'm reporting on what I've seen.

If you dig Virgil, that's great. He's a terrific drummer, to be sure, and is definitely one of the physical masters of the instrument. But he's SO far from being on my list of favorite musicians, that I have to confess, I almost never even think about him. YMMV.

I was not speaking of who is the better musician, that is not debateable. Perhaps I have not been clear, but I was only commenting on your statement that buddy would blow virgil of the stage with sheer power, showmanship, and style. The last term is a subjective matter, but as far as power and showmanship go, those are virgil's supreme specialties (at the neglect of musicianship you and I could agree). I was not talking about playing music, for which I have much respect for both buddy and vinnie. I just think virgil would win in a drum-off, which is a mostly chops thing.

Sorry to be a broken record. But I've seen both these guys, and do not for one minute believe Virgil could blow Buddy away in ANY respect other than the size of his drumkit. You really had to have seen Buddy.

And understand this: Buddy is FAR from my favorite drummer. I'm not saying this because I'm defending a personal favorite. I'm far more into guys like Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Russ Kunkel, and so on. I have much more of an emotional connection to them than to Buddy.

But in terms of a drummer just being, well, jaw-droppingly impressive, Virgil couldn't hold a candle to Buddy - nobody I've seen could. And I say that having seen them both live and in their prime.

But it's all just opinion, so if you want the last word, go for it. I'm done.

Maybe we're just cut from some of the same cloth, but I'm with Mr. A on this.  Buddy, IMHO, was just more musical.  He exemplified what it means to be a drummer in a band.  He commanded the band, he led the band - and they followed.   There was a sense of power to his performances.  To sit in front of his kit and feel his bass drum in the chest - no internal miking, no butt-kicker monitors, just him. . . it was truly amazing.  His appeal reached to drummers and non-drummers alike.  I guess you had to be there.  He was the best.

My buddy has an awesome record collection <more like a library>.  I  can't wait for him to record on cd for me some Buddy records we came across yesterday.  Unfortunately, I seemed to have missed the Buddy chapter.  I have a lot of catching up to do.  Can't wait. 8)

In my opinion, one of the best drummers around is Dennis Chambers.  If Chambers cited Buddy as an influence, he must've been great.

A little OT picking up on Chambers: in Zildjian Day London, he cites Buddy as such a huge influence in his practice routines. Practicing with a pillow and so forth.

He says he was in his early teens (maybe youbger) and took his pedal's springs off, just 'cause Buddy could do 32nds without springs.

Those two are SERIOUS freaks of nature.

Dennis is a huge Buddy fan.

(I'm paraphrasing here, it's been awhile) But he once told a story about seeing Buddy play live when Buddy's bass pedal's spring broke. Dennis said Buddy was looking around for his tech but he was nowhere to be found.

He said Buddy (with no spring on the pedal mind you) continued to play and even sped up at one point playing 32nd notes. Like he was doing it to "spite" the pedal for breaking.

Dennis tells the story with awe in his eyes.

It's hard to even contemplate.

That's funny. Same time posting.

The pedal was probably afraid of him.   ;D

Mr A I agree with everything you have said, totaly. Buddy's solos were musical and made sense. Hand speed and control, come on, the guy could blow anyone away period. For me anyway who gives a darn about chops anyway and speed, if you are not musical and can't swing or groove to me you ain't sayin anything anyway.

Remember drummers, Drummers don't hire you musicians do. I have been chosen many times because of my time, groove, and sensitivity to the music over college professors who have more chops than I will ever have or even for that matter my Old Man and he had alot more chops than me for sure.

Buddy was one of a kind, like Elvin, Tony, Art, Max etc. See those guys came up with there own thing and it came from playing the music not sitting in front of a practice pad 8 hrs a day. That's ok for awhile but man it has got to come from inside out. Not from learning it out of a book. Elvin stated they never planed anything it just came out naturally as a reaction to eachother music and spirit.

Today so many people sound the same and Buddy stated the same thing on one of his videos, years ago you knew when it was Art, Tony, Max, Louis Hayes.etc etc It is kind of sad but to me the world is becomng so canned and formulated it is jus saddening.


Bob Levey  

  Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment but, one interesting thing to note about Virgil Donati is that he studied with Philly Joe Jones. He was also personally referred by Mr. Jones for a Bill Evans audition, which he regrettedly missed. It would have been interesting to hear him in that context.

  This is not an argument, just a general piece of information that I found very interesting when I learned about it.

No, no, I'm done as well. I haven't seen buddy live, so I'll have to take your word for it. I'll try to look around for more footage of him.

I am sure this is a little redundant but I just want to stress the fact of the sound of his drums were like nobody one elses, again he had his own sound.

On the Philly Joe thing, did you know he idolized Buddy and Buddy hired him to warm up the band when Philly did not have a gig for a few yrs?
Tony Williams towards the end also said Buddy was the man he was trying to get to.

Bob Levey

I have not seen Virgil yet.  Everybody keeps telling me I should.

I saw Buddy once performing "West Side Story".  I've never been the same.  I distinctly remember feeling as if I had been slipping out of my own skin.

The only drummer from the same era that could stand toe-to-toe with Buddy is Joe Morello. Buddy once told Joe that Joe could play anything that he could. They both have incredible technique which allows for incredible chops. IMHO Joe has it all over Buddy in the area of independence.

well, i guess the major advantage morello has over rich is that he's still alive, and has thus been allowed to develop much further.

i very much admire morello's books, and would love to have the oppurtunity to study with him. however, that will, more than likely, never happen.

After watching my new "Channel One Suite" DVD a couple of times, I had to revisit this thread.

When Rich starts "Love For Sale" it seems markedly faster than on the original recording, and I was wondering whether he still had the chops to pull off the single stroke roll that was his signature there.  No worries.  Not only did he nail it, but followed it up with some fast triplets with the bass drum.

This is an amazing video, especially when you consider that he was 67 years old when it was done, looked older than that, and had already had spinal surgery and a quadruple bypass.

What an inspiration!

No kidding!  I've watched the DVD twice now.  Amazing stuff.  The extras are interesting as well.

who's the best? Don't know, it sure ain't me. My chops are hurtin for certain against any of these guys. I can keep time though. Ha Ha

Buddy Rich is definatley up there as one of the best drummers, but I will have to side with those who believe that nobody can be the best drummer ever. There are too many different styles and musical backgrounds to judge who is the best in my opinion. Of course we all have our favorites.

Until I see someone play the things he did, Rich rules.

Man! Nothing like making a statement about Buddy to stir things up! My answer to Newbeats original question is this. When you don't hear what the hype is about, check out the guys history and listen to more recordings. Is Arturo better than Miles? Was Miles better than Armstrong? They each did their thing.  
I grew up listening to Buddy and Morello and Krupa and Bellson....and have seen them all more than once.  I've seen Vinny and Weckle and Chambers and Donnati. I love Gadd. It really doesn't matter who's "the best of all time!" However, for Newbeat's original question; Newbeat, you are correct in your assessment that there are drummers who have done things that Buddy didn'tdo. My answer is that he just didn't get a chance or the opportunity or have the desire to do them.  The stories you hear about Buddy playing an entire concert and nobody could tell his arm was broken, or playing with a broken pedal and still playing as if it was normal, or the time he was tired of hearing about Louie's double bass drums so he added a bass drum to his kit and played his solo one night with just his feet! These stories are all true and witnessed! The thing that set him apart was not only what he did, but how he did it. The man hardly practiced! He could basically do anything with his hands and feet that his brain could conceive and do it without practice and without figuring it out ahead of time! His parents were in vaudville and one day his father heard the drummer goofing around in the pit and went out to reprimand him and found out it was his 18 month old son doing it! He could go as fast as he wanted, could play things in odd time if he wanted, and could play any music if he wanted, including rock and fusion etc....  But he wanted to play jazz, not country or commercial or society or rock. He played what he wanted to play....at least later in his career, and he did it better than anyone else.  That's why he was legendary. You can only see what Buddy did on video and recordings, but any great artist does things on the spur of the moment when playing live that is only captured by the people in attendance that night. It may never be repeated, but it will be forever be remembered by those that saw it.  
Just appreciate drummers for their individual talents. I'm blown away by Virgil for what he does. I love Weckle for what he does. I love the musicality of Morello and Gadd and Roach. Basically, I enjoy hearing anyone do what I can't do and wish I could! It gives me something to work on....all the time! Don't get caught up in the who's best stuff. It's too subjective and can never be answered! who would have won....Louis or Ali?  Who's better...Ruth or Bonds?  Who cares?

Check out the Enter key. Great for creating paragraphs.

My eyes! There's something about reading on the internet that's hard for my eyes, I guess I'm not alone.

I got through it fine...although I have better than average eyes. ;)

Thanks rayvonr, I understand what you are saying. Since I am out of Buddy's time, I can only see the history book version, not the living, breathing thing, so I most likely miss a lot.

I just have one question: how do people know he never practiced? I have heard that many times, and it seems to be a major point of people praising him. I just know that over time, people usually exagerrate about things they've seen, and tend to tell stories the way they want them to be told. Not that any of what you said isn't true, I just wonder. He could have amazing feel and dexterity naturally, sure, but I just can't see how you can be born with the specific muscles for drumming that well developed without ever training them.  I'm sure he practiced. The human body is just not built that way--it would be like a pro tennis player or a violin virtuoso saying "oh, I never practice." Would you believe them?

He rehearsed his band.  But as for not practicing - he said he didn't.  Those closest to him have said the same.  He started playing at a very early age and already had chops back then.  He also performed 330-340 nights a year.  I've read that he sometimes warmed up a little.

 :o  Wow!  He didn't need to practice....That's awesome! The guy was a workaholic.   :P

That's why people say Buddy was the best of all time. He did it effortlessly and naturally. He never really had time to practice.

He was the second highest paid child star in the world and this was when he was 2-5 yrs. old. He didn't practice because he was already performing full time.  I'm sure he watched other drummers and he was friends with all of them so I'm sure he picked things up, but he had no formal training. Where the rest of us woodshed in the basement or garage, Buddy was already perfroming.

Buddy was just a freak of nature!

That's a load of crap that Buddy didn't practice. He didn't take formal lessons and could not read a lick of music, but he sure as hell practiced his chops. I know this as a fact from one of his peers, Joe Morello.

Things may come faster to you than others, but you don't get that good without practicing. That was part of Buddy's mistique, that he never practiced. Ray get your facts in order before spreading misinformation.

Whether he practiced or not is irrelevant.  The only thing that counts is what he did on the bandstand.  How he got there is unimportant.

There's a story told by Henry Adler, respected drummer and teacher, in "Drummin' Men", But Korall's book.  He said that when he met the 18 year old Buddy Rich the young man's technique was absolutely perfect.  Rich claimed to have never had a formal lesson, but apparently held the sticks instinctively the right way.  Having grown up in vaudeville, seeing and hearing some of the best drummers working in pit bands, Rich probably picked up a lot of things from those guys, and likely got a lot of informal lessons, but the life itself, with its constant travel, would have made formal training difficult.

Ruth

I see the question this way:

1.  I don't care who's fastest.  There's tons of guys who blow my chops out of the water.  But I do like fast when done musically.  

2.  Buddy was a pioneer.  Mr. Acrolite said it well on page 1.  He did things that transcended drumming and affected the band and its music.  

3.  If todays greats all cite Buddy as an influence, or call him the greatest, there must be something to that.  

4.  I think it's imperative to know the history of our craft, and the people who affected it the most.  My dad played Buddy's records for me as a kid and I took it in.  I prefered to crank my Tommy Aldridge and Neil Peart records, but I took that with me.  Now I'm in my 30's and love jazz even more than all of the other music that I like.   I teach beginners and I usually provide a CD with a lot of different drummers to check out.  Buddy is on it more than anyone.  (Steve Smith is 2nd).  

In summary, all I know is this:  Buddy couldn't be touched in his day (and many argue still can't).  I'm not qualified to get into it more than that!  

Musicianship should be considered just as much as technical prowess. Sure, a drummer with burning chops is impressive, but chops are going to get old real quick if the drummer can't do anything with them. A great drummer, like any other musican, has to think musically. Sure, Buddy had chops that could blow just about any other drummer out of the water. Sure, somebody else might be able to come along and be just a tad faster than Buddy.

What made Buddy great was his overall level of musicianship. He had some of the hottest chops ever, but what impresses me more is his ability to utilize those chops in actual music making, not just a showoffy solo. Listen to Buddy's presence in a band. He simply OWNED anyone and everyone in the band and in the room. Listen to the way he phrases what he plays. If he plays a balls-to-the-wall single stroke, it's going to be relevant and complimentary to the music. In the end, that's way more challenging than pure technique. At least IMHO.

A good drum solo - be it trading fours with a swing band, in a drum battle, or just totally rocking out - has to have direction; has to have phrasing; has to have musicality. If it was all about technique, then why wouldn't every drummer just burn a single stroke roll for as long as they could every solo? That'd definitely be technically impressive, but it would also get boring in about 7 seconds.

On a textbook level, Elvin had crappy technique. With that said, why do so many people consider him to be among the greatest drummers of all time? It was because of his ability to play with a band, not because of his monstrous chops.

I've heard a story about way back when, Billy Cobham and Louis Bellson had a battle. Billy started, and totally whipped out his pyrotechnical chops. Louis responded with a much more subdued, space-filled approach. Billy initially impressed everybody, and continued his balls-out approach. Louis, however, built up his soloing so it had a direction. It came from somewhere and it went somewhere. He was concentrating on phrasing and on the musical statement he was making as a whole. He eventually worked it up to his own pyro show of chops.
 In the end, the crowd thought, "oh, Billy's  just doing his chops thing again," and, "oh man, Louie's really worked up a statement!"

Louis ended up winning the battle.

I guess my point is that if you want to just a drummer by pure technique, go for it. Just try to realize that many drummers value much more than just technique.

I feel that I took way too long to prove that point, arguably got off topic, and probably said a few things that will earn me some ridicule. Oh well.
It's like 2 am now and I'm going to bed. haha. *yawn*

If you really want to compare Buddy to the comtemporary guys, listen to the Burning for Buddy CDs and then listen to the original recordings.  You will hear a lot of "over the top" playing from the "Burning" drummers but you will hear Rich's musical magic on the originals.  I just hear a lot of bombastic drumming that just doesn't work for those tunes.

Adam's Dad

Wow,

This is a heated subject!  

My opinion is that there is no one that I have listened to that can compare to the music and chops that Buddy put to the music this day as a musician.  He had SUPREME energy!

Like Buddy said-DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

I haven't seen this in a post yet--  Buddy TOLD us he was the world's greatest drummer.  I don't remember if I came across this doing a research paper on him for sophomore English, or I heard him say it on the Tonight Show in the early 70's.  I had the pleasure of seeing him live in '76 or '77 at Six Flags Over Texas after my high school band director ran away and joined Buddy's band.   Buddy told us he was the best, and he backed it up with his playing.  He was amazing.

I was in a music store a few weeks ago. They were playing a Marco Minneman video where he is playing to a track of "Time Check." I would concur, a lot of bombastic stuff going on but it didn't quite make it, didn't really swing either.

OK.
Enough is Enough.
I am going to end this right now.
This video (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/buddyrichmuppet.html) shows Buddy in a battle with one of the most repected and revered drummers of the last 30 years and kicking his butt.

If any of ya'll has anything to say after watching this, save it. It just...won't.... matter.
 >:(
-RH

WOW! I'm old.... I remember watching that when it first aired. I believe that was in May 1981 (I remember because it was around my birthday in 9th grade when I got some drum stuff.) It was on CBS in NY.

I love this thread! I'm glad someone resurrected it!

I did get to see Buddy Rich live in the 70's (I'm older than KevinD) and saw him on TV many times. My thoughts echo Mr A's.

Music is an art form, and therfore "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

That being said, my thoughts are: Buddy Rich's combination of speed, musicality, and DYNAMICS (are dynamics a dying art form?) made him, ARGUABLY the best. IMO

I have seen Dennis Chambers (on video only) and would think he could win a strictly speed battle against Buddy, however he just doesn't seem to have the feel. My theory is that swing is such a nuance laden feel that some people can feel and hear (almost like when you move to a differnt location and everyone around you is still speaking english but it sounds different due to the accent) that someone like Dennis Chambers can play (speak) it,but you can still tell he grew up somewhere else. Like on the video that has Dennis Chambers, Phil Collins and Steve Smith: my opinion is that Steve Smith came the closest to "speaking" "Buddy" than the other two.   FWIW

Against my better judgment, I'll jump in this fray...


And maybe you should have used the delete key?
Just kidding ...  :) I've got total respect for Mr. A., just gotta kid a little...


Buddy was the greatest no doubt in my book. I have seen him live and on film and TV. He could kick whoever your favorite drummer's butt is.  ;D

Funny though, the night I saw him live he had a bad night or something. He seemed tired, probabably not up for playing in a small college gym. This was I'd say mid to late seventies.


There is a bit of magic claiming "I've never had a lesson". It is an egoism to say ''It's all in the wrists, man''. Buddy was like that, it was part of his persona, this myth of pure scary natural talent untainted by formal instruction. But the fact was Buddy could burn on a paradiddle or double stroke, he knew that stuff from somewhere. And he knew he knew it, he just liked sustaining the myth. A lot of guys are like that. It gives them an edge.

I do believe that Buddy didn't have to practice as hard as most of us mortals do, and that once he was there with it and playing all the time, that he did not practice much at all.

He once said that for warm up 'I take my hands out of my pockets'.

While in college,  I was very excited at the prospect of going to see Buddy Rich at the famous Rush Street nightclub (DaveFrom Chicago, help me with the name).  I arrived early to get a good seat and eagerly waited to be dazzled by the master.  The set began but the band just didn't cook; Buddy was scowling and verbally abusing the band.  In the second or third song, he began a somewhat uninspired drum solo (very rare!) and then just stopped abruptly, put down his sticks, took the microphone and complained about Richard
Nixon's politics, and then walked off the stage.  I was stunned.  I sat there in disbelief just hoping he would return, but my night ended early!  Outside of the club, I ran into John LaBarbera  (Joe's brother), the tenor sax player, who just shrugged and said, "yeah, that's the way Buddy is some nights."

Adam's Dad

check out  MAG RACK, it is a channel that Cablevision offers and they're running a Buddy Rich video. (ch168 around NYC)

Hi Guys...new to this site. But saw this thread and had to get on. I played trombone in bands with both Louie Bellson and Buddy Rich...Louie more so than Buddy. If there are doubters, you can go to my pics page on my website thsmith.com, and you will see me conducting Louie. For those who don't think that picture is clear enough, go down to the bottom of the page and you will see him posing with my father and I at a jazz festival in our tuxes. Everyone has their instruments in their hands meaning that this is no fan shot. I am not trying to push anything. But as you know any crazy person can say they played with somebody. I have also either contracted or played with most of the major jazz drummers of my generation (and some rockers too Kenny A. etc).

Without a doubt Buddy and Louie were the best of the lot by a very wide margin with Buddy excelling by probably 20% over Louie. And yes, you really can say who was the best. Just get up there and find out for yourself. Only two musicians ever made my hair stand up on stage and it was these two guys...and in the case of Buddy it happened every single time. I never understand this thought about how there really is not someone who is better than others...this apples and oranges business. This stuff about Buddy being just a big band drummer only etc...is wrong. Buddy could do anything that came to his or anyone els's head...PERIOD. I have no doubt that he was the most technically proficient drummer of the 20th century, and those who say "well this guy had more taste etc" are simply not in the know. Even Louie (who I dearly love) claims subserviance to Buddy's talent. Now this is not to say that Buddy Rich was not as mean as a snake. He was self centered and cruel. It's all true. You were always on edge when you played with him. Louie on the other hand remains a saint among men and the better all around musician, being that he can also compose on a very high level, whereas Buddy could only read a little. The way it worked was when a new arrangement came to the band, the drum setup man would read down the chart with the rest of the band while Buddy just sat in the back and listened. Five minutes later Buddy would assume his throne and play the chart down, only much, much better...and some of those setup guys were world class drummers.

This argument about Buddy's talent was going on when I was a kid too (47 now), and was just as wrong then as it is now. Ask most of your heroes who they bow to. Buddy always rises to the top of the list.

Thanks for letting me have my say. I like reading your comments.

We live in a democracy. I assume the majority, if not all, participating in this forum believe in this system. In a democracy the people vote. Take a poll on who the best drummer is and the candidate with the most votes wins. After reading this entire thread and knowing what I do know about Buddy Rich and what others know about Buddy Rich I do not think it is necessary to take a poll. "Best" is not subjective on this one folks.

Buddy Rich was to drumming  is like what Jimi Hendrix was to guitar.  If he were alive today he would still be light years ahead of all the others.  I love to see and hear him ,but everytime I do it just makes me think how I will never be that good.

That's so cool. 8)
Great thread.

the thing about buddy is that he amkes the drumming look so simple, and you try it and you go, "What?" Neil Peart does that also. Buddy Rich makes you have to listen or else you miss the point. so, the next time you watch a video, really look.

For those of you who have seen Buddy Rich LIVE - let me just say:

I HATE YOU! I HATE YOU! I HATE YOU!!!

There - I'm better now:)

Easy there Trips!!

Just cuz I Buddy live shouldn't make you so mad.

(Oh yeah, I also got to sit with him on his tour bus, chat a while, and get his autograph.  IN YOUR FACE!!  ;D ;))

Joe is still taking students in the N.Y area.
 He is the closest thing to Buddy. As I said before , if Buddy were still alive today,all the other cats would still be light years behind him.

Let's start with speed.  Buddy was without a doubt faster than Donati.  I've seen Donati solo in a music store.  Buddy was easily faster.  Donati's thing is complex playing between the limbs and double bass workout.  It sounds like "worked out" math problems.  Comparing him to Buddy is apple to oranges but Buddy would easily prevail in a drum battle.  Buddy was smoother, faster, and it didn't sound like he was playing a prepared, robotic solo.