Drummer Cafe Community Forum

I have a problem with my grip...

Several months ago, I saw a teacher who I talked a lot about feel and grip with, and he introduced me to a new style of matched grip where the middle finger acts as the fulcrum, as opposed to the index finger, which I am accustomed to playing (and what I've been taught before). Initially, I liked it a lot; playing with my index finger felt "heavy," which is why I was inquiring about new grips. This new grip felt much lighter, and could have been just what I was looking for. Also, I had seen several good drummers (including an older teacher) with their index fingers a bit higher on the stick than the rest of their hand. I wondered how that worked, because there would be no solid fulcrum, and I figured this was it.

The grip with the middle finger puts the stick between the thumb and fingerprint on the middle finger (so it's held at the very end). The index finger rests on top, sort of acting as a guide. The grip with the index finger puts the stick between the first knuckle of the index finger and the thumb, while the rest of the fingers are loosely wrapped around the stick.

Anyways, the lessons with that teacher fell through, and I experimented with this grip on my practice pad for several weeks. However, I eventually quit playing, because I had no access to a drumset, living in a dorm room in college (I can only last on a pad for so long). When I would play with my index finger after practicing with my middle finger, my playing was much lighter, seemingly solving the problem I was trying to fix in the first place.

Now that I am able to practice regularly again, I unconsciously switch back and forth between grips, and can reach no stability or consistency in my playing.

My question is, which fulcrum is best for different styles of music? I've been playing mostly rock lately, so I've needed more power for those backbeats and crashes. However, I love to sit down and just groove; the funkier the better. I've been taught jazz and have practiced the technique, but I've never played with a band. I would like to have a grip that's suitable for jazz also, in order to keep my options open. If anyone would like me to take or draw pictures to clarify, let me know.

Any advice or suggestions are appreciated.

Related topic: http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=11907;start=msg133450#msg133450

I really think this issue should be worked with private lessons.  Developing a good grip is most important, one that's a bit difficult to do via a forum.  I'm not sure that one grip is better than another for a particular style of music.

Darn, not the reply I was looking for.  :)

I've been thinking about calling one of the teachers I mentioned for a lesson or two in order to solve this, which I'll do if no one has any input from a similar experience or situation.

I remember reading about Jim Chapin forwarding a technique that was similar to this - i think it was some variant of the Moeller technique or something. He said it was best for people who were playing hard, especially punk and metal music. When i saw him use it in this video -http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/JimChapin.html - i realised how useful this technique would be if you could master it. When i went to my drums, though, i played a while and it was really uncomfotable. After a while, my arms started hurting, and my forefinger killed! So then i stopped and played the way i always play. I think what i learned from this is, whatever other people do, you shouldn't attempt to copy it if you can't achieve it without it having detremental effects. I must have been using it wrongly, but even if i had been using it correctly, and it still hurt my arms, i don't think Mr Chapin would really be happy in me using it - as he says, pain is a bad thing. So i think this is what you should take from it as well. If you are able to play everything you were able to play before - rudements with acuraccy, jazz, snare drum reading - without it being bad for you, i suggest you use this technique of switching around. What i seem to be getting from your post above is that your playing isn't as solid as it should be, or was before. I think if this is directly because of your introduction to the grip, then i suggest thinking about talking to a pro about alternatives. I'm not a pro, so i don't really know what to suggest, and i haven't seen you play either. Maybe think about going back to a grip you knew before and playing some stuff in it - rudements are always good. I think that way you'll be able to build up muscle refinement, and be able to play in just one position.

HTH

Generally speaking I think we are all taught that THIS is the way you hold the sticks.  THIS = whatever your teacher teaches.

I have learned, however, that my grip is constantly changing when I play--depending upon WHAT I am playing at any particular point--index finger grip, middle finger, even the pinky grip if needed!

I think this goes hand in hand (no pun intended)with the "Proper Technique" thread.

Do what you have to do in order to:
Play without pain,
Play fluidly,
Get the best sounds from your instrument.

Speaking of grip, does anyone still use the traditional style? I use it in some of my songs and whenever i do a gig, i usually get criticism for living in the past. I should also mention that i am only 19.

That's quite interesting, cos when i was performing once on a jazz course, one of the guys there said i would be much better off playing with trad. He said it was just better. I suppose it must vary depending on which audience you're playing to...

I seem to have reverted, if you will, to traditional grip from matched.  I find that I prefer the angle of my arm (it seems to lie a bit closer to my upper body) and the way that the stick drops with this grip.  I can also easily use the tip of the stick for ghosting.

Now, if I'm cross-sticking in-between backbeats a lot, I'll use matched—I find it easier in that instance.

As for grip help, these videos from Vic Firth dot com (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/technique/wessels.html) will explain, IIRC.

From whom do you get criticism?  That's kinda weird.  You should do what's right for you.

I use both grips.  I took my first lesson and learned trad grip in 1965 (you know, in the past  ;D).  I find the traditional grip more comfortable for light tunes, jazz standards, and small, quiet gigs.  I use matched grip for rock, louder jazz.  I do find myself switching back and forth, sometimes within a song.  It all depends on what feels good to me at the time, but I'm comfortable with both grips.

Do guitar players talk about proper PICK grip??

I'm serious.  I imagine there must be a "right" way to hold one, right??  Just wondering.

Needless to say, it may be something that the players put a LOT  more emphasis (perhaps even unnecessary) on than need be--just like we/us drummers and OUR grips.

I don't think there are too many ways to hold a pick and make it work well. However, at least for classical guys, a lot of emphasis is placed on hand form/position on the neck. I agree, grip is often overstressed, but it's important that whatever grip  you do use, you have a healthy motion that will allow you to drum for the rest of your life.

Also, drumballz, I use traditional grip. I switched because of a wrist problem, but I also like it better than matched because of how it feels- I like the asymmetric feel, and the loose flow of the grip.

newbeat already mentioned the need for a healthy motion—I would just like to chime in and say that, yes, pick grip is potentially given about as much emphasis by a serious guitarist as by an interested drummer.  I remember a couple of guitarist friends discussing their pick-grips.

sounds to me like you're not really favoring
either grip (yet).  

so, for what it's worth, i'd say continue to work
on both.  i wish now that i had spent more time
working on getting more control with my left
hand using matched grip, because i've seen
some very good (jazz) drummers use it.  and
get great results.

as it is for me now, whenever i need more control,
or if i want to do softer (but faster) licks, i have
to go with traditional.  and sometimes i find it
a bit limiting for me.  i think if i was more skilled
at matched it might allow me to do more.

in my opinion, in time you'll find yourself favoring
a particular grip that feels the most comfortable,
but at the same time, if you continue to practice
different grips now, you'll be more versatile.  and
i think that would be a good thing.

i'd say this:  you know when you're sitting around,
tapping out a rhythm on the desk?  now, which
grip would you use to get that same beat going
with sticks?  whichever grip you choose would
probably be the grip that you're beginning to
favor.  (shrug).

just remember that there are many fine drummers
out there using a lot of different techniques.

I agree with the theory JonE has expressed. Many of the best horn men over the years certainly did not place the mouth piece as your instructed to do, however, I don't think anyone would be willing to tell them they were wrong. Not with the sound coming out of that horn. You learn basics and go on from there. You use what fells go to you and works for you. You are the main factor in this formula for good sound. It may not look like everybody else, but the sound is what counts. How you look doing it is your own signature thing.

I don't know if it is a technique issue or what, but i find myself using the trad. grip on softer 'ride' songs, and matched for loud 'crashy' songs. I think its mostly because i can't get my traditional hits as loud as my matched hits.

The weird thing is i find no matter how much more i practice single rolls with matched grip, i can play a lot faster (and cleaner) with traditional, even if it is a little less finger friendly.

This does not nesessarily have to be how you hold it....I use more of a loose fulcrum with my middle finger and thumb, where the top of my middle finger is very lightly wrapped around the stick, with the last 2 fingers bouncing the stick...In other words, there isn't really any pinch....I've even seen guys who use the last 3 fingers as a fulcrum just kind of bouncing the stick with them but not really applying any pressure with the thumb at all.

You just need to play more man.  The more you play, the more you will figure out what grips work for you.  Don't think, play.  The rest will fall into place.

You had lessons on proper fulcrums, use them and see which ones work.   What you use where is as individual as the drummer.  If you run into road blocks with your playing, take some more lessons and see if there's a problem.  Until then, you have to play play play, practice practice practice.

Yes indeed.  Traditional grip has many advantages on a five piece kit . One of them is that you can play off of your floor tom without pivoting your body.

Interesting, I never thought abuot the floor tom thing before.

I played entirely traditional grip until about a year ago, and then decided to try matched grip, and since ended up playing matched entirely. I have tried to play traditional a few times since then, but compared to matched grip it just doesn't feel very comfortable.

Until yesterday, when I was playing with my cousin (on acoustic guitar) and ended up using brushes to help keep my volume down. With brushes, I felt much more comfortable with traditonal grip, and although I was using a fair bit of arm for the backbeats instead of wrist, that was partly due to my snare being dead flat and not really suited for traditional grip playing.

After this experience I will experiment more with traditional grip, and try and incorporate it more into my playing.

Why do you say that? I don't believe the grip makes any difference whatsoever to the ease of playing the floor tom.

Check out some of Buddy Rich's DVDs.  His 'left hand to floor tom' technique (with trad grip) is amazing.  There's a clip of him and Ed Shaughnessey together on drummerworld.  Watch for the 'under the arm' move.  :)

Basically, Moostification, I was a matched grip player for many years then switched to trad. grip. because my drum teacher who was a personal student of Louie Belson,Lionel Hamptonand Earl Walkins, showed me the advantages.

I'm very happy for you, and not doubting your qualifications nor the traditional grip for a second. But you haven't explained to me why traditional grip "makes it easier to reach the floor tom without swiveling your hips" than the matched grip, as you asserted.

The reason that you see rudimental and rythmic technicians use traditional grip is that with their snare at a sideway slant, the only motion that they are making around the drums and cymbals are small circular ones; hence less wasted motion.

Try for yourself and see.

Adam,You might want to check out Dave Weckl's (A natural Evolution"How to develop Technique") video, He goes into great depths on this grip.I tried for a bit,But have gone back to my old grip.One of the reason's for this grip is help with rebound and playing out of the head,As opposed to through the head.

     I don't think the audience matters in that situation, I think it's more about what feels comfortable to you. What if a carpenter only used a hammer for his tool, and the only object inside his box was the hammer. How would he be able to build anything with only a hammer? it's only good for certain uses. And I think it's the same way with drumming, different techniques and grips are all going to be useful, depending on the situation.  

Well said.  There is no one-size-fits-all in drumming.  If there were, we'd all be playing the same music on the same kit, same color, with the same cymbals, using the same grip.  And we'd have absolutely nothing to talk about here @ DC.

That would be my worst nightmare!  :'(  Of course that will never happen, and we can always use the search button... right?  ;)

Thanks groovin! I'll see if my store has it. Luckily, I have a lesson set up for tomorrow, so my crisis should be resolved (or mediated, at least).

I don't think it matters which grip you use to hit your floor tom. It depends on the placement.

I think the grip you use when you hit the floor tom is  important. I still struggle a little when hitting the floor tom correctly, because I got in the habit of doing this back hand motion when I would hit it. It's not very good for your wrist, I also find my self using German grip when hitting the floor tom with my right hand. I think it's important to notice these things, but I try not think about it when I'm playing.  

No prob Adam.Guess what i was playing the other day and found that still use that grip,didnt even realize it.I kinda use them all depending on the situation.