Drummer Cafe Community Forum

Ok, here's how it is with me. I've been playing 3.5 years and I am 16 years old.

But I think I may be putting too much pressure on myself. I expect myself to play 32nd notes(where quarter notes equal 100 bpm) perfectly and accurately, as well as hardly ever mess up. I also seem to be comparing myself to professionals a lot. Especially Mike Portnoy, whom I want to be like someday. Is it wrong of me to expect to be really really good, even though I've only been playing 3.5 years?

Do I have a self-confidence problem or something? It's really confusing me. :-\ It also isn't making me feel very good at all. :'(

32nd notes at 100bpm is very fast in my opinion (over 13 notes a second...). I can't play at anywhere near that speed, and I've been playing longer than 3.5 years. I think you probably are putting a lot of pressure on yourself.

Keep practising, and keep a log which will help you see progress. If you don't play in a band already, I'd suggest playing with some friends (nota Dream Theater cover band). Listen to lots of different types of music, try and draw influences from people other than Mike Portnoy. Have fun.

I don't know if this helps much, I imagine you probably do most of this already, but it's my immediate thoughts on the subject.

Depends on how you define it. You're not going to play as well as Portnoy in 3.5 years - that's just not a realistic goal. But you can learn to play pretty well in that amount of time, if you focus on the important stuff.

Be patient. You've got your whole life to play drums. Try to have some fun in the process.

You want too much too soon...ahh the signs of youth...don't worry -- you are normal.

Break it down and establish REALISTIC short-term goals and instill a step-by-step method for getting there.

Do not fret about what you cannot do; think how far you have come and feel good about it. NEVER beat yourself up. Stay in the process of deconstruction, analysis, repetition, evaluation and practice. As long as you are working on moving forward at a realistic pace you will not be torturing yourself with negative thoughts.

It's all about patience and determination.

ox

Another thing: this word "professional" - don't assume that if you can move your arms and legs at the same rate as one of these guys, that means you're ready to compete with them. You learn entirely different things about drums when you are out there playing for a living, playing shows for money, under lots of pressure in front of different kinds of audiences. No amount of practice will prepare you for that.

So if you want to start comparing yourself to pros, you need to become one. Get into a working band NOW, and start gigging. Then you'll start to get some of the seasoning that can only be earned onstage.

Practice is one thing, playing is another. A pro needs to do both.

If you're serious about this stuff, and aren't already doing pro gigs, it's time to start looking for some.

I also feel as though I don't have enough time to get a gig.

Also, I need to be able to TRUST the musicians that I play with. I played with a small band once for about 2 months, and I quit. Why? Besides hating the music that they played, I couldn't trust them. Also(man do I say that word a lot ;D), whenever I stopped playing, they would continue playing like they don't care about my problem with the song. I'd have to yell and slam down hard on my snare drum to get them to stop. However, in my church band, I started about 2 years ago, and although I had no prior experience with them(besides watching them play), and I wasn't too good back then, I played one song, and I followed through pretty well. See, I need trustworthy musicians, not people who just noodle around on their freakin' instruments for the heck of it. I don't do that. I love playing both by myself(with a stereo), and with others(like in church). But I hate playing with untrustworthy people, and sadly, I have meant up with way too many of those lately. Sorry, but I needed to say that.

Also(oh, there I go again ::)), this summer I am planning on playing 4 hours a day, as well as practicing in a few needed areas. These include the following. Double Bass Consistancy and Speed, Hand speed and consistancy, and especially, comfort in front of crowds. I also want to practice keeping my tempo. I am also planning on entering the guitar center drumoff in a year or two, and I want to be ready to compete with the rest of the drummers. My drum teacher was a judge in the last drumoff, and she told me that there were a couple of people there who I could have beaten single handedly. While I believe her(she even says I am by far her best student, which should make me feel better about myself than I do most of the time), that doesn't cut it. That makes me better than, let's see...2 or 3 drummers there. There are 5-8 contestants. That puts me in around 4th-6th place. The odds are way too against me in that situation.

Just wanted to say that.

Welcome to the music bizz.  Trustworthy is for the boyscouts.

I like you.  You are a nice young man.  But like most of your generation, you idealize things way too much.  The music business is rough, mean and dirty and can make you a mess very quickly.  Playing in church is one thing.  Playing in clubs is another.  And being one of the "greats" is another.  Mike Portnoy payed his dues- big time.

Relax and let it happen.  Keep practicing, stay focused.  I think you should get in a band that plays out.  Even if you hate the music it would be good experience for you.
Don't put any unrealistic goals on yourself.  So what you can't play 16th's at 200.  Double them.

Don't play harder- play smarter!  Make the tough fills look easy and the easy ones look hard.  Learn to groove your butt off.  Get in a dance band.  Learn to enjoy the fruits of your labor in moderation.  Become the man around town.  Go for your own style in your own time.

BTW 32nds at 100bpm is indeed kinda slow... you can stop at 150- 151.

What is this speed thing? Don't worry about it....Play for the music. Have I missed something in my 44 years? Speed never made me a dime. But leaving my mind open to many kinds of musicians and music has opened more doors than speed ever did. Find the old "Less is more" thread..... That will do more for playing than speed. Go, go, go, fast, fast, etc.  ::)  That's not what music is about. Quality playing, and having a good ear will do more in the long run. Find a band and get some experience being "out there".....  ;)

I am not a big fan of unions but if there is one near you, that you can get into, it may help get you introduced around.  Make it known that although you are young, you are tired of playing with mindless punks who don't really care about the music. You may end up playing a  lot of waltzes at nursing homes, or polkas at VFW dances, but it is all part of the learning process of THE BUSINESS.  It usually comes as a shock to shall we say, musicians at the beginning stages of their careers, that chops are secondary to versatility and professionalism.  

Don't beat yourself up comparing yourself to your idols.  Some of us have the gift, the rest of us have to work at it all our lives.  My earliest idol was Gene Krupa, who was not the most technically gifted drummer the world has ever seen, but I still can't make Sing, Sing, Sing, which is not technically difficult, groove the way he did.

I started working steadily at 16 and except for a 20 odd year hiatus, am still playing out about as much as I can handle.

By all means, continue developing your chops.  Use the licks and fills that you can do comfortably that will fit the music you're playing. Don't waste your time on flash that you can't use.

Get out there, be a pro. Beats bagging groceries.

Roger

If it is double strokes at this speed then yes.   For single strokes, good if you can, but not essential.  Every drummer should try to be the best he or she can.  Anyone can become a good drummer if they persevere, but what we can't do is to change the amount of talent we are born with.  If you have the talent of Mike Portnoy then great, otherwise why worry about it?

Amen!

How fast can *I* play 32nd notes?  As fast as needed.  That usually means short "bursts' as needed in a fill or something.

Speed isn't the only indicator of quality.  In fact the two might even be exclusive of each other.

Good advice.

xdrummer, I think you have unrealistic expectations and goals for your age and experience level.  I won't bother pointing out that speed is the least important aspect of being a succesful drummer, it's been done.  You strike me as the kind of guy who is probably going to end up being blazing fast and superchops heavy, into a very technically precise style of music.  I know a lot players like this, guitar, bass, etc.  I've recorded for these guys and helped with post production on their "self produced album".  The only problem is, these guys headline their basement/bedroom/practice space nightly.  No one knows who they are or how "good" they are because they have isolated themselves musically.

As has been said before, the most important key to being successful in this business is the ability to hang.  There are loads of drummers who are equally adept at playing the majority of music out there.  It is obviously something more than musical ability that gets some drummers call after call, while others get passed over daily.  I've always said that if there is a constant problem in reaching your goals, look at the constant.  If you continually have problems finding musicians you "trust" or feel are good enough to play with, then examine the common factor in all the situations.  Oftentimes, it is going to be your expectations that are holding you back.

XDrummer,
hey man, i know exactly what you are talking about here.  I put goals on myself that are unrealistic, too(i've already realized this).  In fact, i have just about the same goals as you mentioned, but i have only been playing for a year an a couple months!  I think both of us need to ease-up on ourselves and get some much-needed experience under our belts.  

Other than that, keep goin, man.  I will, too.   Kinda nice to have found a sort of "kindred Spirit" (in one respect anyways) here.

I agree with pretty much everthing that has been said in here so far.

You could and probably will be able to play at the caliber of Portnoy...eventually.  I think it's a good thing that you are setting your ability goals to such a high level.  However, you are being unrealistic with your timeframe goals.   The key word is PATIENCE.  Let's just take away the music biz knowledge for a moment.  You've been playing for 3.5 years right?  It is impossible to aquire the speed, technical, and dynamic abilities of a drummer such as Portnoy in that amount of time.

It sounds like you have the determination, but you just need the patience.  Take it one day at a time.  

Yes, and I think it also depends on what you have been doing for the last 3.5 years.  Have you had a teacher for all this time?   If you have and have practised what you were asked to then that would be sufficient time to judge how good you are.  Your age shouldn't make too much difference.  (Tony Williams joined Miles Davis at 17). If you have not had lessons then it is more difficult to say because we don't know what you have been working on - and we can't hear you either!

I was thinking about this thread today.

If you have not already gotten into some of Portnoy's influences- you should: Led Zeppelin and Rush.  You can't go wrong with those two bands.  And I think those bands/drummers will point you in other directions.

There are so many cool cool bands you can dig on that I think you will find much more enjoyable to play and listen to than Dream The-ate-er (that's what we call them in a hillbilly dialect for fun).  For example.  If you and a friend are at band practice (and this would work at church) and you were rehearsing a rendition of some tune; a fellow musician would turn to you and say in their best red neck dialect "that ain't no Dream The-ate-er".  And you could laugh or respond a variety of ways.
That's what we do anyways.

X,

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice here. I don't want to burden you with anything heavy but, at 16 you are coming to a point where you might want to start thinking about how you want to proceed with music and how much a part of your life it will be.

Do you want to do this full time as a career, or do you want to have a day job and play for fun or some extra cash now & then? Either is great (and there are variations of both), whichever makes you happiest is what counts.

If you want to get into a music school or make your own way to being a pro I suggest worrying less about playing like Mike P. or entering GC contests and really focus more on playing with people and playing out.

You can sit in the practice room all day and become a chops monster but, as Tony says, you risk becoming a one dimensional unknown.

I think the best thing ANY player at any stage can do is get out and play with other musicians. You will improve much quicker and will become much more employable once you do.

Mike P. is a good player but keep in mind, finding a gig where one gets to play like that is rare.

I would start listening to as many styles as you can to become as versatile (and employable) as possible.

While Mike P's style fits their music well, he grew up listening to a ton of other stuff. As Felix suggests, I would start listening to other players and begin analyzing their styles.

One of the best sources for hearing some great drummers and their grooves is Mr. A's "Grooves of Doom" page.

Believe me, the ability to groove is looked upon much more favorably than the ability to peel off blazing 32nd notes. Because being able to groove and play as a musician gets you work.

You may not think so now, but laying down a fat and funky 2 & 4 at about 88 bpm (and doing it well) is just as tough as playing some of that odd-time acrobatic stuff that DT does.

Honestly, a lot of this may seem like work but if you want to head down the road to being a pro then that is all part of it.  

You can also take the other route and just play for the heck of it for a while, that may be the more enjoyable path to take.  

You got some great advice in this thread - hope you're paying attention.

I am. Don't worry. This is the part of drumming I'm the most desperate in. I think it was wrong of me to try and be exactly like Portnoy and all those other pros. Let's see here, shall we? I've been playing 3.5 years, and Portnoy has been playing for maybe 30 or so. I think it's pretty much one sided at this point.

Thanks for the advice. All of you are great people. I mean that. ;)

Great thread folks, this is what keeps me coming back.    

You're a class act x2000.  Best of luck to you.  Keep us up-to-date!  

Oh, and though I agree that a Church band is not going to give you much of the experience that a true gigging band can give, it can still provide a wealth of experience and be a lot of fun too!  That's been my primary gig for many years and I love it.  

This thread takes me back to when I started playing guitar ~30years ago. Very similar situation.

When I started playing drums 5 years ago, I took that experience and learned from it with more realistic goals, excellent teachers, and (what probably helped me the most) a larger variety of styles. I'm not limiting myself to one style now and it's great!

Good luck! Keep us posted.  ;D

I'll second you on this.  For several years I was part of a band that "headlined regularly in our practice room" (like Tony said), and I didn't see much benefit to that (although I'm sure there were some).  But for the last ten years I've been the primary drummer for our praise band at church, and I'll tell you, my timekeeping skills have improved a hundredfold compared to the fifteen years before that.  Also the "comfort factor" of playing in front of people improves over time.  Regular playing has many benefits.

If I can add anything it would be to make sure that you PLAY WITH OTHER MUSICIANS.  I don't care if they're good or not, music is like a language--you communicate!  What happens when you're talking to someone in a real life situation and they're not very articulate when speaking?  You have to learn how to communicate in other ways.  Having said that, I find that when I'm practicing by myself I'm pretty stagnant and not very *good*  However, when I'm playing with other musicians...WOW!!!  Since I get to "communicate" with other musicians, the dialogue never gets boring like it does when I play alone...  Something that's really funny is that I've never really liked any drummer, meaning I never tried to replicate anyone.  I always had a natural talent when it came to drums and thus from the get-go I wanted to be my own type of drummer.  What makes this ironic is that once I started getting into drums, THAT'S when I wanted to be like other drummers.  I kinda worked at things backwards all my life, and now after 11 years I kinda like where I'm at, but only when I'm playing with someone else... I hate practicing alone, it's boring.  I also love to perform in front of people!  Nothing beats the look on people's faces when they're into the music.  

Xdrummer 2000,first of all,if you dont have a really good drum teacher,get one.They can show you ways to improve in any aspect of your drumming.As far as speed is concerned,it comes in time,with proper technique,like Moeller,Stone, you can have races with the metronome.Dont ever get discouraged,I know from my own experience this is easier said than done,but really try.I have been playing for 20 + years and I still get the ,"I`ll never be good enough"feeling whenever I watch a clip of Buddy Rich.Portnoy is setting the bar way too high this early in the game!Give yourself time,most importantly give yourself a break! I will repeat what others have already said but it bears repeating,play with as many people as you can!Even if its just you and a bass player.You will make breakthroughs just jamming,I think the reason for this is because you just flow with the music,caught in the moment,not trying too hard like you would be by yourself practicing and drilling yourself.  If nothing else,have fun,try playing open handed,substitute what you would normally play with something else,try not to get stuck in a routine.Keep a loose grip,Drumodad

Drum4JC, just wondering, what is a class act?

I do, as I have said many times before, have a teacher, and she has been teaching me for 3.5 years(as long as I have been playing).

Also, today I played with my church band in front of my whole high school, and I barely got nervous at all! It truly DOES help to play in front of people in a church band. I also get complements on my playing. Lots of them.  :)

I'm not him—but he's saying you have class.  

Yeah, I second (third?) the idea of playing with as many people as possible.  Some of my most valusble learning experiences have been playing with bands or players who I won't gig with again!  But it was still a valuable lesson.

Also, a bit off topic but I've always told my shred monster friends that while it is really cool that they can cop all the Dream The-a-ter (thanks Felix ;)) licks, what I find most impressive is the fact that Portnoy or Peart, etc. actually sat down and created these parts.  Anyone can reproduce them, with a bit of practice, but the talent is in the creation of some monster in context to a song and making it work.

OK, that is cool,  but I think one may ask what goals you and your teacher are working toward.  If the scope of your development exists only to the extent of recreating Mike Portnoy's parts or entering a Guitar Center contest then maybe you and she should sit down and redefine your goals.

If you want to go on to play in college or somehow make drumming your livelihood (as you've expressed in previous posts) you'll need to have a bit more versatility to your background.

It is great that you are getting compliments on your playing now, you are obviously doing something right, I think it is wise to prepare so when you get to the next level those compliments keep coming.

Another thing -
If you ever get to the level Portnoy is at now, you'll still be discouraged because he'll have improved a lot as well, and you'll still be blown away by the stuff he plays.

I guess the point of this post is to reiterate the idea of concentrating on your achievemetns, without necessarily comparing yourself to the pros all the time.

It's a good thing to learn from other drummers and to compare yourself with them.  We all do!  But I would suggest a number of drummers, not just one.  

There is a well known drummer in the UK who does a passable impersonation of Buddy Rich, even down to the facial expressions.  I think that is sort of sad because he is not being himself and will only ever be a copy.

Will I ever get to that level? I sure do hope so.

Also, I am going to also start working on some Led Zeppelin. I learned one of their songs in one day, and am planning to learn more. My teacher brought over a tape with Dazed and Confused on it. Now THAT is some complex drumming right there.

You might enjoy a little Zepplin ditty called "Good Times, Bad Times".  "Moby Dick" may interest you as well.

There are so many good ones:

Love that "In my time of dying" myself- good ol' "Black Dog", "Kashmir", "When the Levee Breaks", "Rock 'n Roll"

When I hear that stuff now, as good as a drummer I am- I'm totally humbled by  John Bonham's genius and talent.

Tony,

I going to apologise in advance for picking on your statements, it is just a good starting point for some ideas of mine and what I have to say is not a reflection on you or your playing, which I have never heard.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with working on chops.

A lot of guys have not spent time on their chops, do not know the rudiments, but cruize by on a good beat and a smile. This is fine 90% of the time, all a guy needs is a good pocket and decent single stroke.

There are other guys that 90% of the time do there job playing a pocket in their blues/top 40/country/classic rock/old standards bands, but also have paid their dues in the wood shed. These guys you can usually spot by their command and presence  ... you just know they have something more under the hood.

I would never obsess on a guy like Mike Portnoy, learn all his fills etc, but it is good to conceptually know where he is coming from.

Same goes with Gene, Buddy, Mitch, John, Bill, Billy, Tony, Danny, or whoever happens to be your drum hero for the week. All these guys come from the fundamentals, each applying them in their own way.

My advice for the young fellow that started this post: Do the homework, learn the fundamentals, and get out and play.

 :)

bongo

Something else you may want to invest some time in is to go out to see local drummers.  Pick apart what they do good and what they do badly.  Learn from them.  Some of my best fills and grooves came from watching my peers.  I can't stress enough the ammount of great info I get from watching others play in a live situation - even to this day.  Once you've put some time in onstage, you'll be able to put yourself in thier shoes and understand the pressure they're under in a live situation.  Take your learning seriously, take it slow, and have a lot of fun doing it.
This is the most fun I could ever have, and I can still say that after almost 30 years of playing!  

No problem, I'm no super ogre or anything.  I certainly didn't mean to sound as if I am one of those "chops are bad" guys, my favorite drummers are Neil Peart and Billy Cobham!  I just try to emphasize to younger players that chops and speed are not the end all measurment of drumming talent.  But I went through a period in my teens through my mid 20's where I wanted to be a combination of Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy!!!!  I played in a fantastic prog rock band and everything.  But as I got older and expanded my line of thinking, I realized how beautiful a jazz ride pattern could be and I began to notice the subtle nuances of different drummers, etc.  I believe its a bit of a maturing process all musicians go through on some level.  But read my thoughts on the "less is more" thread from a few months ago, you may be surprised at how I feel about chops heavy music :)

I totally agree, it is kind of like cars & motorcycles, when I was in my 20s I wanted the fastest rice rocket out there and couldn't see why all those "old guys" just liked their cruisers. Now that I'm up near "old guy" territory myself I find less of a need to risk winding up in a ditch and find much more pleasure in the touring aspect of things.

As far as chops,  I like a good fireworks display once in a while. When used in the right context as Dave Weckl typically does, it is great.  What a lot of drummers fail to recognize however, is that there is a lot more to him than only his chops. He, Gadd, Cobham, Simon Phillips and guys of that ilk are full dimensional players.

The problem I see today is that too many drummer put so much emphasis on the chops part of it that the other, meat & potatos side of their playing doesn't develop.

To tie this back into the original topic, I would say that playing with other musicians in a live or even rehearsal setting did far more for my chops than sitting around with a practice pad ever did.