Drummer Cafe Community Forum

Hey Everyone -
               
I'm new to the board but, it's nice to see a drum community that has literally every facet of the business covered. I hope that some of you may be able to offer some insight to me and share your stories.

A little history on me:

I'm 29, been playing drums for 22 years and have been playing professionally the last 8 years. In those 8 years I have been in several bands that range from rock, pop, folk and r&b, also recorded albums, demos, compilation cd's, gigged out the waaaazoooo which would include: regular club gigs, showcases,  opened for national acts and recorded on other bands records etc.. After all the time spent working in my area, I feel like I've exhausted every possible opportunity but none have ever furthered themselves beyond a local region.

In August  2002, I left the current band I was in due to some members not being able to keep their marbles together mentally. I've made the choice to go it alone this time but have always had a fear of doing this because I figured being a part of a band would further my chances of success that much greater rather than just being a "hired gun". Now, I'm faced with a whole new set of circumstances, I need some advice about what to do. I would like to re-locate and hope to do that by May 2003. Where that will be, I have no idea as of yet but, i'd like to hear others stories, thoughts, solutions on re-locating and how you got started in a new area without knowing anyone.

Thanks for reading this long post...I appreciate it. :)

Critter-

I'll jump in here and type a hearty HELLO!

I can only answer part of your question, that being I am 38, have been playing since 8th grade HOWEVER never professionally.  No mon, no recordings, well that is a little inaccurate.  The church I belong to which I play for on most sundays DOES televise its services so I suppose, TECHNICALLY I have been recorded.  Was quite strange when last Sunday a lady comes up to me and tells me how great I looked on TV last week.  Oh My Gosh- here I am topping nearly the big 300, what little hair I do have (shut up Bart) is... well... I might as well go all the way and be bald.  What compliment do I get??? I LOOKED GOOD?!  no comment on my playing mind you, just this nice little old lady (Well she wasn't too old I suppose) commenting on my looking good- now I'm pretty certain I've read somewhere that God doesn't much like it when we lie but it didn't dawn on me then to call her on it-hehehehe.
So there you go, a little bio but no real advise for ya but I am sincerely confident that if you hang around a bit it'll come your way.  A lot of drummers here have done just what you are planning to do including our fearless leader and his recent exodus to Nashville.  Just hang in a bit, give people a chance to read your post and respond.  I wish I could be of more practical help, but all I can say is Springfield, Mo is a great place to raise a family and flyfish.  As for music its just the normal local scene for the most part- don't know iof anyone living here who makes a living at performing here unless you live od commute 38 miles south to Branson.

Welcome Critter29 - I've been a pro drummer for 30 years and I've lived in Nashville (7 years), Los Angeles (6 years), Minneapolis (4 years), New York City (2 years),  Miami (2 years) and Dallas (so far 4 years) - and traveled on the road the rest of the time. Each of those cities I lived in I PLAYED DRUMS for a living. Sometimes it was ROCK-METAL (LA), sometimes it was jazz & Braodway (NYC), Miami & Nashville (studio) - SO, ALL THAT TO SAY, you have to ask yourself what it is you want from your drumming career, is it to play in a rock band, then go to LA or Seattle or NYC (but mainly LA), what is it that you want? Be prepared to be persistant and be able to hang (save some $$$$ before you go). Do you have a more detailed idea of your drumming goals, then find out what it is and go for it!!! God BLess your journey bro  ;) carlos benson

let me just add a little something to benson's post.  seattle might not be the best way to go.  high cost of living, unstable audience, unstable job market.  ive played in, booked, and recorded a number of bands around here in the last 8 years and its a tough town.  lots of interest, just not enough to pay.  there are always exceptions, but they are just that.  

plus it rains all the time ;)

I wouldn't go to LA.  I have two friends there that have yet to find real success, but they play hard rock.

I would go to Chicago if I wanted to play drums full time.

Hey Critter -Welcome to the Cafe'!    Like MVanDoran mentioned- Bart Elliott (alias 'Bartman') owner of the Drummer Cafe has just very recently moved to Nashville.....which is where I suggest we ALL move....perhaps the B-Man has room for 700 drummers in his basement(!?)    My advice is pretty basic -simply go where the scene is stable and thriving.  

Hey guys - thanks for the welcome and all the encouraging words and tips.

Carlos - wow bro, you have lived all over. You must have some great stories! As far as what I want to do with my drumming...well, I want to be a "hired gun" type which would include: studio work, touring, club gigs and whatever else etc.
I have very broad tastes in music so as far as what type of music I want to play, I'm open to anything.

As for jumping into a band situation...I'm a little gun-shy to get right into another one. I've been in so many bands the last few years and I've come to the conclusion that most never deliver for one reason or another. I know that doesn't sound very positive but, I don't have faith in bands after all the stuff I've been through but, I do have faith in my abilities that God gave me. Not that I'm a perfect individual or trying to sound self-righteous cause I'm definitely not but I figure I'm going to be better off in the long run by playing for a solo artist  or whatever....this way I only have to worry about myself and what I bring to the table. In that sense, I'm not being pigeonholed into a situation in case something doesn't work out. Don't get me wrong, I've played with some amazing people thus far in my career but, I'd rather have the freedom to choose the projects I want to play on. Bands usually do not allow one that luxury....it wouldn't be fair to the other guys either. Obviously being in a band requires a serious committment and usually personal finances that never get recouped back. It seems in that type of situation that a person leaves themself more vulnerable for bad things to happen even though good intentions are the goal. It almost never works out....at least in my experience. But again, I do believe that good things can and will happen for me if I remain resilient, focused and dedicated.

Mark - thanks for the warning about Seattle. It's funny cause I've been giving Seattle and  the west coast - (specifically San Fran) a great deal of thought....bummer that Seattle's not that good. Is it hard to land a good gig there or the opportunities just few and far between?

My goal is to find more opportunities by moving to a bigger area. I just plan to hit the pavement and go out and meet people, hang, offer to jam with them and see what happens.

I've checked into re-locating in other cities and I can't belive how people survive in San Fran or Seattle. The cost of living is ridiculous. What do you guys do to pay the bills if your not getting steady work in those areas? Do you all work day jobs? I'm not trying to pry into anyone's business but, I do need to be realistic with myself and prepare in case anything doesn't happen. I'm not so naive to think that the minute I show up in a new city that I'm gonna have a gig so I need to do some other research as far as where I gonna live and finding a job etc... What did you guys do in this situation?

i know this couldve been private messaged, but i figured its a decent enough topic.  we can share the experiences in our home towns, etc.

seattle ...  as there are more folks on this board from here than just me, id welcome all thoughts.  but its been my experience that its a good music town.  lots of fans.  but not the best place to do it for a living.   its a town of compromise.  cover charges are relatively low (for live music, often times dj nights cost more !?!?!) ... so you can fill a venue, but still not go home with much.  you get the fan base, but not the bread you know.  theres a market for just about everything here.  ive played indie rock, free jazz, noise, electronica, avant garde, and had a venue and an audience for all of it.  but more often than not, the free coffee or drink tickets and a few bucks is about it for compensation.  

add to that a lot of competition (everyones a freakin musician) the aforementioned high cost of living (thanks californians ;)) and tough market for getting a day job (obviously not the idea, but its nice to have some backup) and its a tough town.   ive got a few friends who do it.  one tought music theory and upright bass privately and played in tons of projects.  he actually just moved back to new york because it was easier and more productive there (he had moved here from n.y.)  the other is just quitting his day job today.  he plays a lot of one off free jazz things, but his primary band is a college/jamband thing.  they tour the northwest college circuit all the time.  hes planning on getting by by livin with other folks and eating very little.

thats my view of seattle.  great town, great part of the world, but keep your day job ;)

Mark - thanks for the overview on Seattle. It sounds to me like no matter where I decide to go it's gonna be really tough. I'm more concerned with finding a job, a place to live and being able to afford it. Networking and landing a good gig is going to take time.

As for me, I live in Tulsa, Ok. I've lived here for the last 10 years. The club scene here is all about playing covers and some originals. If you draw enough people then you can bend the rules in your favor. ....in general it's lame. There are many original bands in Oklahoma...but that's not saying much is it? People are not open to original music here nearly as much as in Seattle or elsewhere. Typical for a smaller market though..Tulsa is loaded with good musicians but a scene that doesn't support them. I have had more guys come up to me who are older and tell me "don't do what I did and stay here - move to a larger city and make something of yourself otherwise your gonna end up like me". That's a serious wake-up call for me. The cost of living is the big scary issue for me though...music is all I know how to do. I work for a manufacturing company right now doing engineering work on Autocad by day...but I'm not really an engineer per se. I got lucky with the job I have now & I don't suspect in Seattle or anywhere else I'll be quite as fortunate. So, my prospects are limited to a degree. My fiancee is working on her master's degree and finshes in May so I am lucky in that sense. She too wants to move and is very supportive of me and my desire to pursue music. She knows how much it means to me...what can I say...I'm lucky.

Anyway, good to meet you and thanks for the detailed info on Seattle. I hope I get the chance to come see it for myself soon! Take Care...

Hey Critter - as far as Chicago, well, I don't know, maybe Felix can elaborate on that scene for you..I know it's a heck of a blues scene. Yeah, everywhere you go is potentially tough...but, I've seen guys fall right into some good situations. That's not the norm...Nashville has the best ALL-AROUND music scene, rock, blues, alternative, pop, you name it, they got it. Now, the problem is there's not alot of money around until you get to the recording artist level, that is, playing with a recording artist, and that's usually gonna be COUNTRY. Even then I've known guys that play only once or twice a month with an artist and barely make some dough$$, ya know?? THERE ALOT OF DRUMMERS IN NASHVILLE, ok? So, be prepared for the long haul. I liked what you said about God's abilities, have faith bro, God has good things in store for you, believe it and be diligent to your talent (devotion). Pray about it...I don't see your comments as self-righteous, as see them as REAL. best to you & let me know if I can help you further.  ;) carlos

(Thinking back to my days in the midwest a few years ago...)

The jazz scene is really strong in Chicago, too - also, there are a ton of great Brazilian and Afro-Cuban musicians in the area.

The big thing is that, for whatever reason, there's a strong live music scene in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs - lots of places that have live bands.  I know that here in Connecticut, finding venues for live jazz is a real bear - folks just don't go out to hear music (jazz specifically, but as far as I can tell it's challenging for other musicians as well), and when they do want to hear a live band, they head down to New York City.

As I've noted elsewhere on the board, I love Chicago's music scene, and if I hadn't moved back East to be near family (both mine and my wife's), I'd be living in Chicago - I still contemplate a return there from time to time...and the food is great, too; lots of fantastic restaurants in town.

(I'd better stop now, or I'll end up putting my house here on the market before my wife gets home from work...)

I actually looked at Seattle as a potential place to relocate; took my whole family there to visit a sister-in-law and scope out the town.  I quickly had to give it a big thumbs down. I know several pro drummers in Seattle, one of which is Garey Williams who has his own thing going and is doing quite well.

As mentioned, I just moved to Nashville literally two weeks ago, and just this week am I starting to hit the streets and beginning to network. I can't comment on Nashville really because I'm a newbie ... but I CAN confirm what Carlos is saying.

I would live in Nashville even if there was no music scene ... just because I love the town.

One thing that I've run into a lot, which I'm not digging, is a negative vibe about relocating here. EVERY MUSICIAN I meet here in Nashville says the same thing ... "this city is known for chewing up musicians and spitting them out" ... or ... "it's a great town, but be prepared to suffer".  You know, I just don't by that ... and here's why.

We are all different and unique. We each have something to offer musically. So we really can't compare the successes and failures of other individuals to ourselves. I'm a fighter and I WILL succeed here. If someone else didn't, well, maybe they were an idiot and didn't handle themselves well (musically, finances, relationships, etc.). Are there a lot of drummers here in Nashville? Yes there are! But you know what, nobody does what I do just like I do it.

Just yesterday I stopped by a Mars store just to check the teaching rates for the area, as compared to Dallas (it was the same mind you). The manager over the education department grabbed me and pulled me into his office to talk (weird). Anyway, I told him I just moved here from Dallas and here's his response. He looks down, shakes his head, then looks back up at me says "you know, I wish you the best of luck, but Nashville, well it's a jungle out there."  Having heard so much negative vibe the past few days, I just looked right back at the guy, threw my hands up in the air and said, "well .... just call me Tarzan!" LOL  Luckily the guy laughed (whew), but I wanted to get the point across that I'm ready to have at it. I'm not scared by the giants in the land. I knew about all that BEFORE I moved here. I don't need people continuing to caution me and warn me after I've already MOVED MY ENTIRE FAMILY HERE.

Nashville has some of the NICEST and SINCERE people you will ever meet ... but I've got to tell you that I could really live without the discouraging comments. I think they mean it out of love and concern, I really do, but you know what, it doesn't help me at all ... it only feeds the spirit of doubt ... and who needs that.

So ... where ever you decide to relocate ... I think it's wise to do exactly what you are doing. Count the costs, see what giants are in the land, check your pulse and see if you are up to the task. Once you set your mind to it, and you believe in yourself and where you are going, don't look back, don't listen to doubt ... and only move forward.

One more thing on Nashville, after checking into many cities (including Chicago), I found (and can confirm) that the cost of living here is MUCH less than other places, including Dallas. I now have twice the home I did in Dallas ... and the Home Owner Insurance is half as expensive! Car Insurance, Health Insurance, etc., it's ALL LOWER here in Nashville! If anyone is really interested in moving here, I'd be happy to share exact figures with you (via IM); I don't want to publish them here.

Lastly, but not least, I want to publicly thank Carlos Benson (aka bensoncarlos) for giving me some great contacts. Carlos only knows me because I subbed for him once at a church in the Dallas metroplex. Talk about a nice guy! They just don't get any better than Carlos; thanks bro! I'll be making my calls soon!

WOW :o I just realized I'm writing a book here ... so I'd better stop.

Carlos - thankyou for the encouraging words. You know it's funny, I lived in Morris, Illinois for 17 years but never got to know the Chicago area...of course I was too young back then to really do anything but, I really haven't ever heard that much about the Chicago music scene in general. The smashing Pumpkins are the last big thing I can remember that came out of Chicago.
I have family that live near Chicago...about...1 & 1/2 hours away but, I don't know a thing about the scene there.
Musically, I don't see myself playing the blues or being a part of anything like that. It's not really my thing. I'm much more into rock, pop, r&b-funk, folk.....that kind of stuff suits my tastes. I'm not saying I wouldn't be open to the possibilty of checking out Chicago though...

I've been to Nashville several times in the last few years. The country thing is big there and so is the Christian music scene. I knew a few guys that I worked with on other projects that played with Margaret Becker.
From what I remember, Nasville didn't strike me as a music capitol..... ironic to think that I know but, what I mean is the recording thing is what's in Nashville and that;s mainly for Country and some other stuff but, I didn't get the vast impression that Nashville had a rich music scene in general. Maybe I'm way off though.....

Isn't it great to be alive today?  I'm so giddy...I think I'm going to play flams on my giant step pedal and imagine I'm an amazing player.

Bart, you are going to just do so well in Nashville.  I know it.  Give yourself some time...man, you just relocated your bizz.  People naturally take a liking to you, plus you have someone really huge backing you if you get my drift.  How can you do anything but succeed?
You handled that manager very well.  He's going to remember that.

BTW...Chicago kicks...oh how I would love to move there and get in a hot beboppin' restaraunt crashing, lounge burning trio/quartet.  It's not over yet...my wifey loves that city.

What are we talking about?  Oh yeah, the kid wants to know where to move-  DUH-UH live with your relatives (for free obviously) outside of Chicago till you get relocated and wired in your fav situations.  There, your problem is solved.  I'm telling you- that town has it ALL.
My one friend who I always thought had about as much musical talent as a frog has been making quite a fine living mixing, touring and engineering.

Now you have me wanting to move James!

Bart -
thanks for the encouragement.  I too have that fighting spirit in me. My philosophy: the glass is half full...not half empty. Let me congratulate you on starting a really great website for drummers. Finally, a place on-line where we can all go to discuss things and more importantly, learn from them. Cheers to you! ;)

Whatever you do, don't move to San Francisco. We have a musician's community website here and I posted recently to guage whether or not there's a legitimate scene here for pro drummers. The responses I received were truly depressing. Here's a selection:

I think you answered your own question: New York, Nashville, and LA are *the* three "recording industry" cities, while San Francisco is not. And while NYC may have fewer studios than the other two, the theater scene (Broadway) more than makes up for it in providing work for pros. The Bay Area has only a handful of "pro" studios (Hyde St., The Plant, Fantasy ... that might be it, and only one of those is even located in SF) ... I've known a couple pro-quality drummers in my time here, but the only one who I ever knew to do any actual pro work was one guy who got hired by a Japanese singer to do an Asian tour. -Doug

musically, this seems to be a very small town. as you know studio work is few and far between. steady income would be a better bet from a performing band that does a lot of corporate events, weddings, and other high paid gigs. you could also teach. naturally, both these fields are already crowded, so i don't know if this helps. i consider myself a working musician, but i ain't quit my day job. -Matt

yer dreaming. -David

I guess I'll have to leave the bay area by the sound of your posting, that's just sad that SF doesn't harbor a place for the pro drummer. Hope you find some steady stuff. -Mike

This business ain't about talent, being nice, what kind of @$%# you've done before (here or anywhere for that fact). To prove my point, just turn on your radio and listen to all the crap that's out there. What it is all about is having a good,strong MOJO!!! -Jason

From what I've heard, in San Francisco it's supposed to be next to impossible to make a living playing live, so most guys teach or work in the day. -Mario

What are your rates? I'm in the process of recording a demo and will need a drummer. -Sandip

I'm a pro drummer that recently relocated from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Certainly, the vibe isn't as nice as San Francisco, but the paychecks are a lot better. All that's left in the Bay Area are Church gigs, casuals, and the occasional singer/songwriter session. Definately not enough to sustain a decent living. I was making more money flying to Los Angeles to work than I was living in the bay area. I hated to leave but all I hear now that I'm in L.A is how much people are in need of drummers. -Phillip

i'm a pro level drummer who is having the same problem you are, i'm thinkin' the dot comer's forced all the avenues for musicians to work and make a living(obviously NY is expensive too). -Robin

There is no "pro" or even Musicians scene in this area (SF), only people in bands or who want to be in bands. Sorry, it's been that way for at least 15 years. -(another) Mario

you should have known better. -Todd


I don't know why the hell I'm here. I love the city I guess.

Sidereal - With all due respect to you....

So, let me get this right...according to you, I should base whether or not I move to San Fran on "other" peoples perceptions of it? Well, if we all thought that negatively about life and music then we'd all be failures too. I for one, am willing to give every city the benefit of the doubt based on my own perception of it - not others - before I make a judgement on whether or not it meets my standards. I mean look at what Bart said about Seattle and how it wasn't for him.  He didn't specify what he disliked about it necessarily.... just said it wasn't for him. At least his opinion was an un-biased one. On the otherhand, Matt Chamberlain lives in Seattle and he's doing quite well so, who's right and who's wrong? Neither - The point I'm illustrating here is individual experience. Obviously, we're all different and we all bring different things to the table musically speaking as well as what we want out of life. If I go to a new city with an attitude like those guys had on that San Fran website than, I might as well become a cranky ole' accountant and quit playing music but, ya know what? ( in Danna Carvey voice)..."Not gonna do it". Another thing....it doesn't really matter where I move to...it's gonna be hard wherever I decide to go. Hard to make contacts, hard to make the adjustment of living in a new city- where it costs more to live, hard to make friends as people are generally not as friendly as they are in smaller communties...yes, hard for everything but, that's life. I gotta chase the dream and be positive and stay focused. It's all about getting a break. I'd rather be in San Fran than Tulsa. At least you have successful bands/musicians from that area. We have none in Tulsa. Another thing San Fran has is a community that supports the arts and "original music". I'll play for free if it means opportunity knocking at my door....screw the money.

Thanks for the post though...I need to hear those things too. It reminds me of the real world and how hard life can be. Balance is the name of the game. It looks to me like your doing quite well for yourself so what's the problem? You've got a gig...matter of fact...3 gigs...you should be happy about that bro. ;)

i was actually going to bring up chamberlain and keplinger.  these guys are sucessful, but not in seattle really.  kep's makes a living as a tech and drum maker.  chamberlain tours and does session work world wide.  seattle is simply home base.  

The reasons I didn't dig Seattle were personal, and to share those would needlessly offend people.

Now ... as far as Matt Chamberlain living there ... has he always lived there? Important question to ask really. If you are independently successful and/or have already established a name for yourself, as Matt has, then WHERE you live is irrelevant. Dave Weckl could live at the North Pole if he wanted to ... and he would get the same amount of work as he does now ... assuming that transportation was not an obstacle. I'm overstating this, but you get the point.

Before I decided to live in Nashville ... I first had to figure out what I like. What part of the country do you enjoy the most? From that point I think you should then look for "happening" cities that can be found in the "preferred" region.

Now the other side of the coin is the music market. If I could make a living as a professional musician ... while living in Costa Rica ... man, I'd do that in a heart beat! Since that isn't possible for me, I have to then begin my search at a more realistic point.

I think it's important to be happy with the environment you live in. Some people are happy to make tons of money, even though that can't stand where they live. For me, life is too short. I don't live to work, I work to live. I'm blessed that people are willing to pay me to do what I love to do best ... and that is to make music.

So ... we each have to make our own decisions based on what our personal priorities in life are. Is having a great family life and raising your kids in a healthy environment important? Is being famous important? Is making a lot of money important? I could go on and on ... and there are no "right" answers here. You have to decide what YOU want ... and what YOU need in this life.

I think it's great that we are having this conversation.

Discussing the cities that are thriving in the music industry is valid; we need to do that. But after the list is made, I think it comes down to personal needs.

For me, I didn't see Seattle as a place that was thriving in the music industry. It may work great for some ... especially when the find their nitche. I just didn't see myself finding my place there ... but that's me, not anyone else.

Mark - I'm gonna go out on a limb here and disagree for arguments sake. Geography does matter. I believe it to be the make or break difference in creating an opportunity. Let's take the case of Matt C. He met Stone Gossard and played for Pearl Jam albeit not very long but still it was in Seattle. Two, Stone G. started Loosegroove Records. Three, Crittersbuggin has put out 4 records on that label. Even though the label is gone it created a buzz for Matt personally by showcasing his talents. All of this done in noneother than Seattle. After Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians broke up I never heard any music from Matt for awhile. Critters Buggin was the first thing I heard him on in 2-3 years. Had it not been for that, it might've been longer. So you see, I do think that the little things matter...

Bart - I agree with you. Someone who is successful doesn't have to worry about where they live. All I'm saying is, living in a city IMO, does at least better a person's chances of success.

I don't know if you meant to say Bart rather than Mark ... but I wanted to respond anyway.

I agree that little things matter. Being in the right place at the right time is a definite reality in the music business. But I think before we can ever place a city like Seattle on the "best cities to relocate to for music" you are going to need more than just a handful of success stories.  I think we can all agree that New York, Los Angeles and Nashville are the top three. Choosing one over the other would more than likely be determined by personal climate tastes, as well as the music genre you prefer.

Look at Terry Bozzio ... he moved to Austin, Texas. What's up with that?!  Personally, I would bet he moved there because of the climate and lifestyle. Only Terry can answer the REAL reasons, but I don't think he HAD to move there, or by moving there has increased his exposure or is getting him more gigs.  The guy could live anywhere he wanted.

So we really have to keep a focus on what the "average" drummer (musician) would need to do. If you want to hunt rabbit ... you will probably have the most kills if you go where there are plenty of rabbits. If you only choose to hunt where rabbits have been spotted, on occasion, but aren't plentiful ... sure, you might bag a few ... but you lessen your odds if comparing to "rabbit city, usa".  The thing you have to remember is that you are not the ONLY person hunting rabbit. You're also not the ONLY predator on the planet. So unless you know of some secret breeding ground for rabbits, you will have some stiff competition from all the other carnivores.

Here in Nashville, you can throw a rock and hit a producer upside the head. Now ... how many cities can you say that about?  If you want to record and be a studio musician, you need to go where people need studio musicians. If you want to play grunge, then you better go where people can't get enough of that style.

thanks bart ... visions of 'night of the lepus' in my head now :)

(for those not in the know, 'night of the lepus' was a b-movie about psychotic rabbits killing everyone)

Sorry, around that point I gave up on reading the rest of your thread because you're either looking for a fight, or looking to disagree with anyone who doesn't blow sunshine up your a**.

First of all, a lesson to you: Beginning a post with the words "with all due respect," doesn't give you the right to disrespect someone. Especially when that person is trying to help you. If you don't like the content, fine. But no need to get personal. Once you post something, it's no longer yours. It's everyone's.

Second, if people's opinions don't matter to you, which you clearly just stated above, then why are you on a drum board asking for people's advice on where to move to get a career happening?

Third, don't tell me to "look at what X said" as if there's some sort of blessed way of posting. I'll post what I like based on my experience, thanks, and I don't need a newcomer here to educate me on internet ettiquette.

Fourth, clearly you're placing yourself in the same league as Matt Chamberlain. If you've already got the ability and the business plan of one of the top 5 drummers in the business, what have you got to worry about?

OK, well, let's see, that puts Nashville in the lead by one with Chicago a close second and LA & Seattle pulling up the rear (unfortunately San Fran can't seem to get outta the gate)...LOL. ;D Ya know, Austin's a cool city, too...all this movin talk sure makes me glad I'm just recording demos at home and teaching and playing at church on the weekends. WHEW!!!  :P - Well, ya know there's nothin that says if ya move somewhere you're stuck there, right? Just like at my past, I LIKED moving different places and checkin it out. If you don't like the vibe in Chicago(add your preferred city here), then go somewhere else...actually Critter, there are alot of POP albums that are recorded in Nashville (alternative to jazz), people just like the BIG LITTLE TOWN feel and that down home recording sensation. But, the LIVE playing scene wouldn't be like Chicago for sure...mmmm, what to do, what to do???  ::) Be true to yourself Critter and stay positive. blessins on ya - carlos

id be all over chicago if it werent for the freakin summers.  cant handle the heat one bit.  grew up with the midatlantic humidity and im done!  but they have got the worlds allmightiest jazz and modern rock scenes there and im jealous :)  hamid drake, michael zerang, art ensemble, isotope 217/tortoise/chicago underground ... the list goes on ... so i hang in seattle and see keplinger :)  could be worse.

on a more related note, ive found that the more musically active a town is, the less i get done musically.  there are too many diversions you know? so in seattle, theres enough to entertain and inspire (two great festivals help) but not so much that i want to go out every night.

This is really a great thread.  I've enjoyed reading it all.  I think 99% of us probably have similar goals in that our true desire is to be able to play music for a living.  Thus, I think a thread like this probably addresses one of the most relevant things to consider when trying to achieve such a goal.

I know for myself, I CONSTANTLY think about this until I get sidetracked by a new project, band, etc.  For the past three years I've come ridiculously close to moving to LA and then last year, nearly packing up and moving to Austin.  But each time just before I'm going to do it, something falls into my lap.  Problem is, those somethings keep amounting to nothings!   :( LOL!

Anyway, as I read this thread, one thing comes to mind which is something that has only been crystal clear to me for about a year or so and that is that one needs to have as clear a goal/business plan/etc. as possible before making such a decision.  You have to be VERY specific and it has to obviously be more specific than "I want to be a hired gun."  You really need to think about exactly how you want to achieve this and what your ideal situation is.  How much money do you wish to make?  What kind of music do I want to play?  How am I going to market myself?  etc. etc. etc.  

The answers to questions like these will ultimately play a huge roll (ha!) in making such a decision as well as end up telling you additional things.  For example, if you answer "everything" to the question of what kind of music you want to play, then you need to start going through styles of music to make sure you can cover it!  How is your swing feel?  How is your latin feel?  Brushes?  Rock feel? etc. etc.  Really analyze yourself here.  Maybe when you're done, you find out that you really want to play 2/4 polka  :), thus you find out where the buzzing polka scene is or you can tell yourself that you'd be happy playing polkas in a wedding band.  But the point is, is that you need to have all this in check BEFORE you make the decision to move or execute the move itself.  Same with the other questions.  

Finally, when you've got a sound plan/goal, reassess where you want to relocate.  Chances are it will be different from when you first considered.  Another thing you can do is take a few days/vacation to visit the city and scope it out a bit.  When you're there, check out ads/music stores, local publications, etc. and see what kind of music/work is happening and what kind of demand there is for drummers.  This obviously won't be a true representation of what it's REALLY like, but it is a good place to start and may also have an influence on your final decision.

OK - I'm rambling but I guess I'm a bit conservative on decisions like this one and consider it a SERIOUS decision that requires SERIOUS thought!  LOL

I'll probably still be thinking about the same questions in about 30 years  :-\ when all of you are famous and on the cover of Modern Drummer......!!  haha!!   :D
 

I had originally posted a long rant but, decided to delete it. I'm not looking to make enemies here at all. Bart's right - If something needs to be said personally then we should e-mail or IM one another.

Sidereal - if I offened you , I apologize. Didn't mean to offend. I took those website comments negatively. I realize that you were trying to help in your own way.  :)

OKAY PEOPLE ... THAT'S ENOUGH.

I'm putting my moderator foot down now; haven't had to do that in a long time. Personal comments, directed to a specific personal, should not be made on the forum; that's what the Instant Messenger is for!

Please don't make me lock this topic.

No need to apologize or comment on my post .... just move on and let it go.

Now ... who's going to moderate me?

Didn't Bozzio live in L.A. for a long time? I remember someone asking him about this at his clinic. Don't exactly remember what he said...something about family and wanting to get out of L.A.

Anyway, I always kind of laugh at how people talk about L.A. I've had some friends who have lived there before and they said it's a really seedy place. Even people who've made it, don't really have that many nice things to say about it.

Scott - nice post. My situation sounds alot like yours. Anyway, I'll be sure to keep those suggestions close by...thanks again.

Sorry ...had to lighten thiings up and thought both were appropriate.
Hey guys I live in L.A. and I go along with the 'it's hard everywhere' concept. There are some absolutely cool, not-to-be-found-elsewhere  things to be involved with here - and some very sobering scenarios. Such as cost of living. I came here from Miami Fl. to go to a great college and be in a vital music area. I came directly from playing in a locally popular and very hot straight ahead jazz quartet, reveiewed in the bigger local newspaper as well as on TV and appearing on the local jazz radio show (all of this no small feat around the UNiversity of Miami jazz scene) - to being stuck in the college marching band at the age of 22. :D
Sobering but I see that time as valuable for all kinds of reasons. Still it points out that where there is vitality, there is heavy competition and I believe the inverse is true also.
There are tons of opinions -  that even vary by what decade you are trying to accomplish something -  about whether an area is a good idea to move to.
My guitarist roommate thinks the live music scene is not great here and I kind of agree when it comes to certain types of live work. However, you will see all kinds of music come through Los Angeles at different venues and you have more chances at meeting major recording industry players than in almost any other city - with the exception of Nashville.
My roommate and I also talk about how the ability to earn a living at playing live music is easier in some places like the Midwest. But then you are looking at playing in a cover band for the most part - and unlikely that you will be able to get in through the side door of mainstream recording sessions (name artist albums, film and TV, Major account jingle work, etc.)
So the questions once again are:
What do you want to do?
What are you willing to give up?
Do you have clear end goals?
What's the personal impact of your actions and if met, your goals?
And the biggest....Are you being realistic?
"I want to be the new drummer in AC/DC and have a perfect family life, loving my wife and watching my kids grow day by day"
" I want to be the newDave Weckl, but I just haveto live near the beach and that means an 80 hr per week day job"
"I just know that all the agencies in town will pay me on time because they are the greatest people on this earth"
Yeah the last one is a cheap shot but I had to take it. :)
L.A. is a great place for the right players, but a bad place for the person who isn't ready for an agressive campaign combining patience, endurance, networking, musical excellence, and oh yeah - GREAT people skills. There are so many guys that can do what's needed that YOU have to be the guy 'they' want to hire because 'they' like you. That doesn't supersede or replace the need for musically having what it takes - it's just that so many drummers have the musical goods that other factors have to be involved.
Well is that long winded enough?
Feel free to ask me about my experiences in L.A. but do remember that I feel it is different then the next guy for the most part save some common facts of life.
I also want to close by saying I love you all very, very, very, very, much (*sob)..and (sniff)..can we all digitally hold hands and sing 'We Are The World' ? (*sob) or maybe some appropriate Neil Diamond ballad???
 ;D

Jim

Sorry.
My last post wasn't ALL a quote. My stuff started with Bugs and Daffy. And yes I do have a life. LOL!!

Jim

Did someone say "wabbit"????

Elmer the singing Viking:"Ohhh BwoonHilda, yoh so wovewey"

Bugs as singing Valkyrie maiden: "Yes I knoow iit, I can't hellp iit...."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Jim -  Your the first person in a long time I've heard talk objectively about L.A.

How long have you been in L.A. and what type of music do you play?

Thanks for the chuckles - but know that it only encourages me!! ;D

I've been in L.A. since 1980 when I started attending Cal State Northridge. [*It's a very long story and if you are seriously thinking of coming here we should  I.M. a little]
I've been a freelance player and have played all kinds of drums and percussion gigs (mostly drums).
Currently I play at a lot of churches that do contemporary Christian music. I know that sounds a bit milk-toast but believe me I play some cool stuff compared to some of what I've had to play outside of church. These gigs also line up to where I am in my life with God and being a very involved single Dad.
But I also do other stuff. Recently I've been gigging with an actor musician named Tim Russ. If you watch Star Trek Voyager, he's the charcter named 'Tuvok'. Tim's a good bass player and singer and does OK on guitar also. I also got to play a Star Trek convention in Las Vegas last month and that was a hoot as well as a surprisingly cool gig.
I'm getting ready to do some recording sessions for a worship leader/songwriter's new songs for a CD.  
I just played djembe at a coffee house along with a bunch of great players.
Did a jazz trio thing by Malibu beach.
Just ended a summer gig on Wednesday nights with a band that did some blues/rockabilly/shuffle R&B stuff in a Bar and Grill, north of L.A.
That's a bit of the type of stuff I'm doing.

Jim

no, no, not laughing at you for being in L.A....laughing at your daffe duck skit... hehe... anyway....

Doing the Christian thing is cool. I don't think that's a milktoast thing at all. It's good to be close to the maker. I actually got my start in music by playing drums for my church. For a nine year old kid playing drums with adults 3x my age that was quite an experience. Best of luck to you man!

I'd like to I.M. message you about L.A. but, don't have Aol...I do have yahoo messenger though or wecan just use e-mail..let me know

you can im right here ... that little scroll thing by your name.

Critter,

mark563 is right. You have a message waiting for you right now. Just test it out to see.

Just talked to a drummer tonight ... who grew up in Seattle, has been playing in the area for some time, and just recently moved to Nashville about a year ago.

His words ... "don't move to Seattle unless you already have something lined up."

He said the town is pretty dead for freelance work, and has limited session work. People think the town is "hot", musically speaking, because of all the success bands from that area have had; but this was a long time ago. His feeling is that if you want to make it as a session player and/or work for major acts, you need to be in New York City, Los Angeles or Nashville.

All of this is basically what most of us have been saying ... but it's good to get some advice from an individual who has lived in the Seattle music scene for some time.

Just thought I'd pass it on.

It's such a subjective thing, I think. Depending on who you talk to, you'll get different answers. I can't fathom the idea of living in LA or New York.

There have to be some "B" cities around the country that are in particular need of drummers. But as to how one would figure out where they are, that's the big mystery. Of course, you'd also have to have a place with a good nightclub scene, some producers and some studios.

My g/f is thinking of going to school in Ann Arbor, Mich in a couple years. Apparently there's a good deal of jazz going on there. But again, it's all subjective.

and while ann arbor might not be next door, you do have easier access to chicago :)