Drummer Cafe Community Forum

Well, last night I went to the bar where my band plays every Wednesday and I saw some other musicians play. The drummer had some serious chops (or at least more serious than mine  ;) ) but he kept demonstrating them all the time! The guy played loud breaks every other bar on Doors songs! I know the keyboardist in that band, so I went to talk to him after they had finished. I said nothing about their drummer, but the keyboardist himself asked if I'd like to replace him! All right, no practice licks appearing on cover tunes from now on!  

Went downtown Nashville two nights ago with a buddy of mine to check out a band. There was this drummer who plays for "big" name Country artist playing with this group we heard. The guy had GREAT chops (including double bass) and very relaxed when he played. His fills did seem over the top at times; the solos where definitely "chop city" which is okay ... it's a solo. But with all of this ... NO POCKET. I'm not saying that his tempo wasn't good ... but the grooves did not feel good.

My buddy, also a pro-drummer in Nashville, and I stepped outside to get some fresh air (after the band continued without a break in over 2 hours). It was evident that my buddy and I felt the same way; the pocket was lacking.

So, for me, POCKET is EVERYTHING! I wish I had the chops this guy had ... even his fluidity ... but I also went home having been reminded to NEVER sacrife the pocket for ANY reason.

I'm hoping this guy was just having an off night groove wise. The first set sounded like a band might sound at the end of the night ... you know, after too many beers ... but nobody was drinking!

It must be nice to deal with musicians who understand this concept.  My band members do, as do the recording studio owners and arrangers, however, most of the local drummers and especially my adult (18 and over) students still tend to measure a drummer by his technique and how over the top he can play.  I feel as if I'm being tested whenever I see some of the other local players at a gig.  They don't seem to have much appreciation for the pocket.  I tell my students over and over that anyone can teach themselves to play fast or technical (ala Neil Peart) but the true measure is to make the song flow.  However, once in a while I'll tell the band I'm going to deviate and play a big solo, just to show the other drummers what it's all about! :)

Pocket, groove - that's where it's at. I used to be in a band that played a Doors song that included a drum solo in the middle of it...different. When it's time to groove, groove it, when it's time to solo, SOLO MAN!!  :o

funny, in the band im currently drumming with i replaced a guy who was too busy of a player, big neal peart solos and what not ... totally inappropriate for jeff buckley kinda pop.  they often have to ask me to play more than i do :)  i end up getting all miles davis and play by not playing ;)

I've seen this kind of thing too many times. I'm not going to single out anyone, because I don't want to pick on specific drummers. But I'm talking about cats playing with well-known musicians.

You know what kills me about some chops-heavy players... the guys who finish fills early in the beat. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. Those big, fast, polyrhythmic fills that end with a crash. But the crash ain't on the 1. It's somewhere, but it ain't on the 1. :) And yet, some people are impressed by that. Whatever, it's not for me, and not for 90 % of the bands/artists out there.

  I used to go see my friends in their band every chance I got. I knew everyone & felt bad to watch the drummer ( also a friend.) Play so much & get so into what he was doing he would break cymbals ( I used to gasp having Never broken a cymbal to this day) &  sticks & anything else he came into contact with. At the end of the gigs he would throw his drumsticks to the audience (I have no idea how anyone who is'nt famous can afford to do all this.). I always waited for the house to clear and I'd go pick up his sticks wherever they had landed & give them back to him. He has gotten better since. But all I can say is no one likes a show off.  ;)  
Pocket Power !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

LOL hahahaha

I had an experience with this last weekend.  I COULD NOT find it for the first couple of songs.  There was a small break while someone messed with the lights, so I tried to find IT.  Cleared my mind, listened for the noise of a tree falling in an empty forest and the sound of one hand clapping, checked out the cleavage on the chick sitting beside the stage, closed my eyes and took a few deep breaths. . .and there IT was.   And it projected out to the rest of the band--they were smiling and relaxed, tempos were great, breaks and leads were on, phrasing, solos. . .the rest of the night was outstanding.  It seems hard to put into words, but for me finding that comfortable spot where everything just flows is a really good feeling.

HAha!-  that's great.   Well said and nicely done!  

Bartman:

What was the venue?  Just curious.  I have found a great tool that I use on the road for live shows to help me keep time and have been so happy with it I've just got to tell folks about it just in case some live drummers have not tried one yet.  It is absolutely the best thing since sliced bread.  It's called a Groove Guide from Drum Perfect.com,  you just can't work without it especially if you sing backing vocals and don't want to have to have a click.  It is a visual tachometer that establishes your tempo after the second beat off the snare.  (small trigger)

Not to mention it helps you stay in the road after you come out of one of those impressive "double kick fills!"  ;D
 I may be the last to know about it!  But, what the heck!  There ya go.

Joe Ammons

I was reserving my first posting for a topic that was close to my heart and I believe this one is a good one to get started on. By the way hello my fellow drumming friends. It's good to be here. I enjoy none other than hearing that laying into a good groove that repeats and keeps a band grooving througha verse section and so on. I have a lot of players that I keep on my roster if I can't play a gig. I have a guy that I refer gigs to that is some of the greatest chops for his age. Yet when I refer a him to a bandleader they immediately go. Ohh no...he's way to busy! and he tends to rush. I need a tight player.
 So I then thought I have been hearing alot of bandleaders say that to me lately. Non-drummers appreciate just a 2 and 4 that compliments their music. I see now that alot of the people I play for have not a clue what an ostinato is or playing over the top of a 5/4 bar means. And also they don't really know what playing in the pocket is. They just know what makes their music sound good and what feels good. They do know however, what "to busy is". I love hearing Vinnie go off man....nothing is like having my windows down and cranking his solo on the Los Lobotomy's tune All Blues. Then I throw in Sting's Ten Summoner's Tales and you hear some incredibly controlled, tasteful drumming from the same guy. I'm learing alot here and am enjoying the wisdom from you fellow drummers out there.

It's funny, the grass is always greener . . . .   My strength is my versatility.  I have a lot of divergent styles to draw from and I believe (I hope) that I can make them all groove.  I have decent chops, and I love it when the communication between musicians is really working.  But, I just don't feel comfortable with extended solos.  Trading 4's, no problem, 8's I'm still OK, 12 bars - now your pushing it.  After that I feel like I'm dancing by myself.  I drool over players who can play a 32+ bar solo and know exactly where they are.  Like Buddy, Louis Bellson or Joe Morello.  Then again, who doesn't.

I also drool over players who can play at 350+ BPM (I can't even play that fast in my imagination) for 10 minutes straight.  Then again, who doesn't.

Ratamatatt

Bartman, you're spot on!
I play in a cover band where all the other members are several years younger than myself. (I'm 29 they're all 20-22, don't get me wrong, they're all very good musicians!) But they're constantly telling me about these "@$%#-hot" drummers that they've seen at a gig the night before. Just like bartman says - great chops but no feel. No pocket. When I try to explain this concept to them, I see their faces go blank. The only one who seems to get this idea is our keyboardist.
(PS - I don't expect singers to understand anyway!)

I've heard this argument before and I whole heartedly agree that playing in the pocket is very important.  However, saying a guy with great chops that speeds up or comes out of a fill in the wrong place is saying two different things.  His chops are off.

I also hear way too much that drummers with great chops have no feel or something similar and that always gets my dander up.  

IMO if you are into chops then play music that supports it and vice versa.  Nobody wants to hear unchanging Charlie Watts stuff in a Dream Theater type song and nobody wants to hear Mike Portnoy stuff in a Rolling Stones song.  It's called ruining the song.  They are both great for what they do in their respective genres.

I have noticed however that many chops oriented drummers have difficulty finding that style of music band to play in.  They settle for (as used before) a Doors or other type of band just to play out.  They then become very bored with just keeping a beat and then overplay.  Very bad.  I think chops oriented drummers and musicians should hold out for the right band.

Then there is also the fact that if you are in a chops oriented band you will be held to a higher standard and better be able to deliver.

Maybe I just suck but I never get bored with playing groove...I think it is just as challenging as a mongo fill.

YMMV

I think its more of a challenge and a lot of fun too.  Back in the funky music days thats what got me a lot of sub work.  Solid grove and so funky that if I walked across your lawn your grass would die.

That is one of the BEST lines I have EVER heard!

Beautiful!!!!!!!

"i used to rock and roll all night, and party every day.  now im lucky if i can find a half hour a day with which to get funky."

-homer simpson