Drummer Cafe Community Forum

What's the right way to play clave against the cascara?

When is it cruzao (crossed)?

I have learned it both ways, and have an opinion on which sounds best. I'd be curious to know what you all think. I have seen it written in books both ways.

I think it sounds most musical and dancible when the 3 part of the clave is in the measure of the cascara where the beats fall on the one, the two, the three and three and, and the four and.

What you say?

I consider the way you just described to be crossed or Cruzado.

If we are talking Son style, for example, this is how it's traditionally played:


This would be Cruzado:


Notice how in the second example, the Bell pattern or Cascara doesn't line up with the Clave as in the first example which feels more natural.

As I'm sure many of you know, there are many types of Cascara or Bell patterns. The one I notated is popular with the Son style.

Both sound cool, but it seems like the less complicated one would be the "most danceable."

That'd be my guess, anyway.

Well it depends on what clave you're in 2-3 or 3-2, in Salsa music you are usually told(written on the sheet) either 3-2 Cascarra or 2-3.  The fun part is when the songs switches claves.

But that doesn't answer the question! If clave' changes, then the Clave AND the Cascara pattern both change to match. Failing to change would be cruzado.

Saying that there's 2-3 and 3-2 Clave, as well as 2-3 and 3-2 Cascara, shows that there is an accepted right way to play this. The labels only work if the player understands what they mean. What he's asking is which goes where ... and not be "crossed".

Traditionally, 3-2 Clave and Cascara go together. The way bongo said he thought was the most musical and dancible is actually cruzado ... meaning playing 2-3 Clave with 3-2 Cascara or vice versa.

You are right bart, Cruzado would be playing in the wrong clave (playing 2-3 when the song is 3-2 or vice versa)

It's what I meant to say but some times I don't explain myself well, LOL.  Thanks for the clarification.

I do like the sound and fit best playing it this way, the 3 part falls between beats in the first measure of the cascara, which drive momentum and has nice syncopation.

I think there is some fogginess on what is the right way.

The LP published booklet 'Afro-Latin Rhythm Dictionary' shows it cruzado for the Fast Mambo-Latin Jazz on page 32, but on p.17 they show it the other way.

Also Ed Uribe's book 'Afro-Cuban Percussion & Drumset' shows it written both ways on p. 70.

By contrast, Charley Gerard's book 'Salsa' specifically shows it played the way Bart has it notated, which I think is most commonly accepted as 'correct'.

So have a listen, play it both ways and let me know what you think. What sounds best?

I think what's important is to know what is traditional and what is cruzado. The way I notated it is the correct way if going for the traditional or original patterns. Cruzado isn't "wrong" unless someone is wanting you to play traditional pattern, which should be your default in my opinion.

There has to be some distinction here so that everyone can understand and play what is needed ... and know what is traditionally correct and what isn't. If cruzado was wrong in of itself, then it wouldn't be notated or used, and you would hear "oye idiota - tu esta cruzao!"

So, it's all valid but the notation and explanation IS the correct way; the rule of thumb. If you want to change it because it sounds good and feels right for the song, that's great, but you need to know that it's cruzado. In this case, the only reason it would be considered "incorrect" would be if someone thinks you should not cross the clave, but rather play it traditionally. Make sense?

;D

Oh, how many times I've said that to a piano player friend of mine! ;D ;D ;D

I can understand bongo's point. It creates a nice syncopation, but it would drive nuts your bass or piano player!

I remember the song Patria (Ruben Blades) to have this kind of cross-clave effect, but it doesn't sound crossed within the percussionists; it is the bass player who crated this clave shift illusion. It gave a jazzy feel to a very traditional guaguanco. One of my favorite songs (specially the lyrics).

Just a snack...

The other day, a friend emailed me a picture of a hand with two sticks ala double mallet grip. The stick between the pinky and the ring fingers was supposed to play the cáscara pattern while the one between the thumb and index fingers played the clave. The picture showed a cymbal with a LP Blast Block mounted on top, it can be done with what ever you want. It is an easy excersise and the best of it is that it leaves you a free hand to play somthing else. :D

I think it would be really challenging to try to play the cross-clave we were discussing like this! :o (well, maybe not for a mallet player)

You are referring to this I believe ...

(http://community.drummercafe.com/attachments/LaTercera_mano_Detalle.jpg)

I started doing this type of thing back in college (20 years ago), but not with a block mounted to a cymbal. I used a mounted Cowbell and Jam Block.

As mentioned, if you play 4-mallets, this is a breeze, which it really is once you spend some time with it ... working it slow. I use 4-mallets a lot on the drumkit as well as my perc set-up. Of course it depends on what you are doing, but if you are playing Pop music or working on the pit of a theatre, it really comes in handy. Mallet players won't have a problem with it, except for the difference caused by the drumstick weight. Using Timbale sticks is much easier.

For those who need to see a photo, there's a nice picture of the Stevens Grip for the right hand there.

Also, my buddy Louis Santiago, Jr. does the same thing that you see in this photo, but with his left foot split between two pedals.

Lastly, note the notation of the Cascara and Clave ... it's not cruzado.

Exactly!!!

 :o , your friend must bill people just to watch his left foot technique ;D

As a latin percussionist, the worst thing in a song "driven by the clave" (salsa, son, etc, etc) is to have somebody "cruzao"...In some way is dangerous because you could cross everybody else...The percussion is not the only directed by the clave....the whole band is...It could be messy!   When you are accostumed to play and "feel the clave" when sombody is out of clave it could drive you crazy...

Be aware that although traditionalists will tell you that you should not "mess with the clave", it could be done "subtle" but not for too long for the reasons mentioned before....

Saludos!

Welcome onboard, my buddy! Good to see you here too.

Raymond is good friend and one of the few Pearl Percussion endorsers here in PR. If any question about salsa jumps to your mind, he's the man!

Another sense of the this whole "cruzado" idea, and one which is "acceptable" or correct in traditional music, is the way the bass plays a one bar clave figure (as explained by Malabe and Weiner in their book)
- - - X - - X -, which crosses with the 3 / 2 clave on the second part (ie the "2"). The best way to understand and incorporate this into playing is play clave (or clave and cascara) with your hands, and maintain a one bar clave on the bass drum, which can be the above, or:
X - - X - - X -
The way the bass drum crosses the clave in the "2" part of the clave is so cool! It's also correct and acceptable in a traditional sense because that's what the bass is doing anyways.

Let me clarify a little. Try the following:
RH  X - - X - - X -    - - X - X - - -  (3 - 2 clave)
LH  X - - X - - X -    X - - X - - X -  (one bar clave, 3 - 3)
or
RH  X -X X - X - X   X - X - X X - X  (cáscara)
LH  X - - X - - X -    X - - X - - X -  (one bar clave)

Play around with the sounds or surfaces with each hand. Also turn the cásacara or clave around and play 2 - 3.

Have you seen the Rekow/Perazzo dvd Another day at the park? That's exactly what Raul did in the yambú clip; he played a melody on the tumbas against the cáscara while keeping the basic guaguancó feeling. Curiously, I watched that dvd a couple of times this weekend just for amusement and noticed that.

Are there times when a timbale player would be playing these two rhythms against each other (ie, one bar clave - or guaguanco figure - and palito or something similar)?
Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Rekow/Perazzo. Is it latin jazz? Worth checking out?

"Are there times when a timbale player would be playing these two rhythms against each other (ie, one bar clave - or guaguanco figure - and palito or something similar)?
Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Rekow/Perazzo. Is it latin jazz? Worth checking out?"

A timbalero could everything with its two hands, as independence allow, while playing cascara but never seen it "cruzao"...Again, is difficult to have one musician been crossed in the clave...You could do things that are closed of being out of clave, or against the clave, but you cannot keep it for too long if the arrangement requires clave....It takes a lot of discipline, and/or lack of knowledge of clave, to be out of clave for too long...

Saludos!

Yes, Bart makes the good point that one should know the tradition. It has been my default setting for some time now and only recently have I been experimenting with playing it 'crossed'.

Somehow I expected it to sound bad, that I would go to hill, or something, for playing it that way. It was a discovery to hear it sounded kind of cool. I think it flows more than the stacato feeling of the traditional way.

Just the same, it bugs me if someone plays son clave on rumba, and it would really bug me if they reversed it. I would probably quit playing and ask them to play it right, if it wasn't in front of an audience.

They are the conguero and timbalero (respectively) of the Santana band. They have a cd that goes for the same name of the dvd (I think) where they play traditional stuff. I only have the dvd.