DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

Howdy drummer people,
I must say i have become Greatly Overwhelmed with dam Double BAss ??? ???

1) some peole Say: Pratice slow ( I see no progress)
2) Some people say: just blow your feet away ( I see no stability)
3) some people say: Pratice heal downs ( Still No progress)

Please !! What Do i have to do to play like Lombardo.... There must be some pill i can take!!!!

Which Has seemed to work for any of you???? and how have u done em??

Hunt around on the Web and see if you can find a copy of Rod Morgenstein's double-bass book-and-cassette package - it's the best, most practical double-bass training I've ever seen.

Also, pick up an instructional video or two by drummers whose technique you admire.

If you don't have a metronome or drum machine, get one. Use it to gauge your progress.

This stuff is hard work, if you want to do it WELL. Be patient and methodical.

Here's my view .......


Slow practice DOES pay off ... but you've got to work on getting faster. Once you gain control, real control, at a slow tempo, speed up a bit ... then see where you are at. If you are still solid and have control, speed up some more.

Heels up or down ... it doesn't matter; I actually practice both ways, and use both techniques.

Simple things like taking George Stone's STICK CONTROL and applying it to your feet is a GREAT way to work on double bass.  Check out my 5-Minute Lesson ...  The Endurance Method (http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=28) and apply it to your feet using STICK CONTROL or anything else you want to work on.

It will pay-off, but it takes time, patience, diligence, discipline and perseverance.

You can not expect to master this is a week or so.  Give it time.  When you do speed up, stop playing and then start at the faster tempo, do not speed up while you are playing.  Speeding up while playing will only cause you to develop bad habits.

What I meant by speeding up, initially, was that if you are playing at 80 bpm (for example), then you would move on to 82 bpm once you got 80 bpm feeling good and under control.  The reference I made to my Endurance Method was to make aware of the concept of covering ALL of the tempo ranges, never going faster than what you can play relaxed, and work over a long period of time to build up your endurance and control.

I don't know about the whole thing about having to stop before you speed up or your develop bad habits. I guess you could some bad habits, but I don't really think that if you do this you will definitely create bad habits. If you are maintaining control and staying relaxed ... I just don't see how you could develop a bad habit by speeding up while playing.

Perhaps I'm missing something here ... or maybe we are saying the same thing but in different words. I'm sorry I didn't explain my full intentions with my original post.

Thank you very much for your comments,
I wish to add;
Ive been playing double bass for 1 yr or so, but still I mean i can manage 16th notes till about 134 ish. But then everything seems to break down
Before i played DB, I played a lot of funk type (right hand, rightfoot Rfoot) type triplet patterns and well, when my right foot goes any faster it has the tendency to want to Double Up on things. My left foot is not the problem in this case.... Any ideas??

This is only my opinion but slowly speeding up while learing something new helps to reinforce the bad habit of rushing the tempo.  You play what you practice and if you slowly speed up while practicing there is a good chance that will happen while trying to maintain a fixed tempo.  Its only my opinion, but that is the way I teach.  

You've got what I call the invisible string syndrom. I tell me students about this all the time ... which is basically that when you try to do something, it's as if a particular limb is connected to another limb ... by an invisible string.

The only way I know to fix this is to spend a LOT of time developing the control. You're right foot is going on auto-pilot because it's relying on muscle memory. What you've got to do is create new neural pathways and teach it to ONLY do what you will it to ... not going on a default pattern or rhythm. We all deal with this at some level ... so just practice slow and take days, weeks, months, to build up your speed. When you find that you start into the old habit, slow back down a bit until you can play it clean, relaxed, steady and controlled. When you find that pivot or break point, keeping working on developing the maximum tempo that you can play it at correctly. Over time, this will become so easy that you will automatically be able to play it faster and faster ... making slow methodical progress.

I realized a little more control, power, and speed by playing triplet patterns, at first accenting the 1st note (Rlr Lrl) then the second (rLr lRl) and the third. I still haven't  mastered it at a high bpm, but speed and control have noticebly improved.

Groovesmith, I worked my butt off about 10 years ago, and finally played Angel Of Death to speed...I haven't played fast since ;) (I think it killed me) Lombardo is a freak!

I have recently dug out Kenny Aronoff's "Power Workout Video".  This exercise, when done from beginning to end at speed, is a fantastic way to build speed, strength, and coordination not only on double bass, but between the hands and feet as well.  I love this workout and have started using it again after a few years away from it.  

I will second that Tony.

The other great thing about that video is that it has a written suppliment where if the video goes to fast for you, you can set your drum machine to whatever you are comfortable with and merrily chug away.

Make sure you have really good hand technique...if you aren't a machine with your hands you'll never be able to do it with your feet. Don't even try to do double bass patterns until you have a good sense of time with your hands.

If you're still having trouble I don't know what to tell you...focus?

I bought a double peddal a year ago and i was using it on and off because i just couldn't get the hang of it and it was driving me nuts.  Then one day i thought that i'd start working on rudiments with my feet, maybe that owuld work.  So i did it and within a month i was rolling 16ths as smooth as can be and i've been going from there

you have to take your time its the only way youll get it. Im still working on a different technique. But with the one i have now i can play about 180-200 bpm, the problem with this is that it isnt loud enough for recording or just practice with myself its fine, but with a band cant hear it. I took some advice from tim waterson's website (worlds fastest feet) he said to basically stretch out your muscles play heel down first, like singles, doubles, 1/4 notes,1/8 notes,1/16notes. and after i had done this i raised my heel and i felt great control and power. I say speed isnt everything, lots of drums have great double bass skills but dont have the chops to back it. example drummer from fear factory hes all about feet thats it. treat your feet like your hands, do simple exercises before you play to warm yourself up. Do constant slow double bass to work your endurance simple stuff like this will help you greatly in the long run. ;D

Well, a lot of good information has been provided all ready, but here are my two cents:

Regularly play rudiments with your feet.  Work on playing them both with and without accents.  I would play them in the same way I would with my hands - start open, then close, then open over a 2-minute period of time (slow to fast to slow) making sure to hold your peak for around 8-10 seconds.  Also, I would practice them at a slow tempo (you should play everything to a metronome that you can, imo) for further reinforcement.

Get a double bass book (like Mel Bay's Double Bass Drum Workout) and start working on the exercises.  You don't need a book, but it helps because the exercises are in front of you and there's no need to spend time thinking of them (since this is solely for increasing technical ability).  Make sure to lead all exercises with both feet.

Also, take time to work on single foot exercises with ONLY your left foot.  A good book for basic rock exercises for one foot is The Drummer's Cookbook.

Finally, what I've found to be the key to my speed is an endurance workout I worked up (nothing that special, however).  All of the following rolls should be played accurately, never sacrificing accuracy for speed.  Also, they are all 16th note rolls at the specified quarter note metronome setting.  I play quarters on the hats and snare on 2 and 4 when playing these up until I hit the 200's, and then, I switch to snare on only 3.  Start out with a roll at a very slow speed for you (say, around 80-90bpm) and keep it going for 5 minutes.  Then, move it up a bit (100bpm) and go for 2 minutes.  Move it up again (120bpm) for 1 minute.  Then, move it up to a tempo that's starting to really push your limits (144bpm) and hold for 30 seconds.  Now, put it at the fastest you can play evenly (160bpm) for 10 seconds.  Finally, play as fast as you can for as long as you can.  In between each of the rolls, be sure to rest for 1-2 minutes and stretch your calves/shins as well.  My actual numbers for this exercise are, after 2 years of double bass, as follows: 144, 180, 220, 240, 250/260, 260/270.  They tend to fluctuate a bit (sometimes I'll do 200 instead of 180, etc), but those are current as of today.

As far as technique goes, heel up or heel down doesn't matter.  I play heel down and can play pretty much anything humanly possible.  Hope this helped!

270 bpm? If you're playing 16ths, that means you're playing 1,080 notes in a minute. That's pretty brisk!

Are these bass drum rolls played with alternating single strokes, or with doubles?

If it's singles, I'd love to hear an audio clip. Art Verdi's record with singles (hands, not feet) is 1,116, and the last I heard, Tim Waterson's bass drum singles record was 1,030.

Well, I can't hold anything over 250bpm for 1 minute (30 seconds at MOST).  I might be able to hold 240 for 45 seconds at most, so that's the closest I could come.  And, I play them all heel down as singles.  I don't ever use double stroke rolls with my feet because it's not practical - singles are louder and more energy-efficient (you don't have fingers to control rebounds).  I have a clip of me doing some crap with some fast footwork, I'll see if I can't get it up when I get home tonight.

Yeah try that.

I practiced with weights in my feet, not too heavy, just for endurance.

I, personally, wouldn't use weights simply because they can be hard on your knees (and other parts of your legs) and aren't necessary.

Yep, I agree

Weight might help, but I dont think its physically good.

Look at Gene Hoglan, amazingly fast drummer, but he needs to walk with a stick these days

Check out the new kid on the block.

Guess I'm gonna have to call him "Speedy" or "Flash"

Jeez, when I was 21 I was still playing Pratt Solos and Jim Chapin's stuff.

Everything sure has accelerated.

Felix, youre getting old man!

Those times were different, you know!

hehe

His problems come from practicing with weights??? Jeez, no more weights for my double bassin

Well drummin's like golf in that you can be old (which I don't think I am) and be great.

And I really havn't been playing that long all things considered.

Ok back to werk.

I practice double bass daily and use Bart's suggestion, slow then increase gradually.  I also do the opposite of that. I can play fast constantly at 185 BBm for long periods with no stress or strain, heels up, but ask me to play at 160-170 off the cuff and I lack the control. So I practice from low tempo's slowly going up, and faster 185 going down. Someday both fast and slow will meet and hopefully I will have control. I find heels down harder to play fast, but then again I just started trying double kicks, plus i wasn't that fast of a single kick player to begin with. My focus is control, being relaxed, and speed is secondary. I have a double kick practice pad set up under my desk and try to spend at least an hour minimum per day. That's why it will take me a while to get good at it. Work gets in the way of my drumming. I make adjustments to my routine so I do not become a one trick pony. I think dynamics are very important to keep in mind, thus the Stick control idea mentioned earlier is excellent.

Yup, in the end it comes down to practice time, for me, if I try to get 1.5 or 2 hours a day in, and if i can spend more then 20 minutes really on doublebass playing, then im lucky.

Like i said in the other topic, reaching awesome speeds is nice, but that monkey tricks, Idd rather sacrifice some speed and be able really make creative use of it with the time i have, then to be able to match the speeds of my favorite death-metal band.

Here is a clip with some pretty fast footwork in it:

http://www.suicidetoday.com/mp3/stroggsolo2.mp3

It's not as fast as my workout, but I wasn't really warmed up when I did it and wasn't aiming for real long rolls.

Not too shabby.  Sounds like bits and pieces of a Tommy Aldridge and Neil Peart noodled solo.

Oh, no, it's shabby, heh.

I just wish I could play single bass like Duffy Jackson or BR.   :o

Ratamatatt

We wish you could to so you would quit talking about those two guys  ;D LOL

When i was learning double bass i learned like this

1) learn all rudiments with feet fluently
2) find how fast you can run stabaly
3) keep that pace then work on power, strength of hit
4) from there keep progressing slowly with faster beat, stabalising each speed then adding more power

*rudiment was very very helpful*

dead_trooper


I practiced with weights in my feet, not too heavy, just for endurance.
 
Even though it may seem smart to play with weights on your feet , you shouldn't ONLY practice that way. This is because the muscle groups that PUSH DOWN on the pedals are not the same as the muscles that PULL UP.  By putting weights on your legs you will strengthen the muscle groups that pull up but will weaken those that push down on the pedal because the gravity helps you to push down. I learned this the hard way. I used to play drums with my heavy workboots on. When it came time to play with my loafers or running shoes on, it felt like the spring tension was too high on my bass pedals, even though I never changed the tension.

Dan

http://teachmedrums.com

sorry to bump this up.well firsti would say get a good double bass drumming method or heel up method. i would say after you got a method down then start working on doublebass. I am almost done with perfecting this method that i call or people i know call "flutter foot" Its maybe the easiest method i know. Ive tried heel up using my whole leg never worked. Ive never done rudiments with my feet, only my hands for a lil. I figure that rudiments with your feet would greatly increase your speed so i shall do that. Anyways ive never done rudiments with my feet and i would say i can play songs like "raining blood" "angel of death" by slayer with ease. And its great cause i never get tired at all. but practice slow, and learn a method and that shall help you out alot

search on yahoo for ballistic bass drums
  it's a video about doin really fast bass
  i have it so i'll explain it bc it's really not worth the $30- $50 they charge for it  but the technique really works
      take ur shoes off..  slide ur feet up almost against the chain.. now.. starting with your right foot lift your heel up really high and pust the beater into the head with your toes.. next make a whipping motion making your heel go into the footboard and ur toes lift up then return to the starting position..
   this is not ment 2 be straight 16ths  it's a whip motion and only should have 2 hits to it.. practice it with both feet   then work on having your feet alternate the doubles  i normally do it left heel right heel left toe right toe(i'm lefty) but experiment with it i do it weirdlt.... it normally doesn't take 2 long 2 get the basic idea of the whip motion ..
 

Alternating single strokes.

And yes, only a few deathmetal drummers are able to play at this speed. Pete Sandoval can be heared playing at this speed on the last Morbid Angel album "Gateways to Annihilation". (270/15 = 18 beats/s) But most drummers just can't go further then 240bpm (16 beats/s). Yeah, he played with bassdrum triggers :) But he's able to play it live too. I think you only create very little volume at this speed without triggering. But hey, playing tight at 210bpm without triggering sound @$%# fast too...

It's quite weird, some metaldrummers are able to play 210bpm (14 beats/s) singlestrokerolls for a whole song (4 minutes). But when they must play around 180bpm they can't even keep the beat tight for 30 secs.
Most drummers can't manage to play this speed with singles, even not after 3 years practicing doublebassrolls (singlestrokerolls). But you can, I wan't to hear an mp3 (home recording or whatever)! :)
Hey Dan, you're practicing for the WFD isn't it? I made a topic for common questions concerning basspedal settings: http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=3609

I can do handstands while playing doublebass, Is that cool enough to enter the metal  club? :)  8)

File not found ;( :(

I think Han left the building together with all his Mp3s and fake solos  8)

one thing that helped me get my left foot up to speed was to play left handed, i'm right handed so it made my left foot the main and worked my endurance and speed up and then i went to the double basses. the left hand thing was kinda a mental/physical trianing and a really freakin hard experiance

Here it's quite weird.

My left foot is able to make tighter single strokes than my left foot. But my right foot can make better doubles.

I'm right-handed. By the way, I put off my resonant head for a while now. The rebound is far more natural now, I think it rocks.

I switched hosting.  They'll be back some time.

Maybe try www.geocities.com or www.onlinerock.com ?

I have the space, I just have to upload them sometime - and I will when I feel like messing with it.

Actually I heard Han's solo that he posted and it was pretty good from what I can remember.  I was pleasantly surprised.