Drummer Cafe Community Forum

This is not a link to the kid on youtube that "explains" the polyrythm in his manner (simplifying the beat) it is in fact an opus to the great genius which is Danny Carey.

I'm talking about the rythm that he created in the climax of Rosetta Stoned, the epic track from 10000 days.
I have recorded myself playing this rythm to show some of you that might have missed what great drumming is in this song. So I'll explain in the easiest way, the complexity of this groove.

The bass drum is in 3
The high-hat in 4
The snare in 5
and the toms (mandalas) in 6

The toms or mandalas are played on 3 different distinct sound played in 1 - 2 - 3 - 2 ... creating a 5th rythm.
He then added a flam on the first note of the toms just to add to the complexity.

This is me playing the first 4 rythms. Note that the first 3 seconds are there to show the sticking pattern of the hands.
http://joblo3.homestead.com/files/Stoned1.mp3

Then this is the whole rythm, with the added magistral 5th beat.
http://joblo3.homestead.com/files/Synapsis_-_Stoned3.mp3

While learning this, I was absolutely amazed by the depth of it, amazed, by the tromendous efforts needed to master it, and then the simplicity of manipulating it while perfected. This is for me the greatest polyrythm of the last 2 decades.

Hail to you master Carey!

Can you write this out and post it? It sounds nice, but I'm having a hard time hearing the rhythm the way you described it. For example, with the snare drum only playing one note, what makes you say that it's in 5?


Nice stuff...

the snare is in 5 because you need to play it 5 times before it loops, but I'll try to find something big enough to write this monster down...

Here it is, the first 4 rythms, written in paint :P

The top bar represents the toms, the second one the High-Hat, the third on is the bass drum and finally the last one is the snare.

(http://joblo3.homestead.com/files/Stonedsheet.GIF)

hmm, here's the link to the image, since the board auto-resizes the image to 550 pixels...

http://joblo3.homestead.com/files/Stonedsheet.GIF

You did that in MS Paint? Must've been painful. You really need this: http://www.codamusic.com/

It will even allow you to tie notes together to show odd groupings of 3/5/7 etc.

What about that cowbell sound on the clip? Is that part of it, or is that from a metronome?

To me the thing sounds like it's in 3/4, with a cowbell on 1 and a snare on 3. Still trying to understand...

Can you post a clip of Carey playing it, too?

LOL! it's far from being a cowbell :P it a 6x6 bongo with a high pitch :D

But I reckon it sound aweful, it's the fault of my huge drum vs small old PC mic...

Those toms sound in 3/4 but I count them in 6/2 (which is the same thing).

Anyway, here's danny playing it live, but I think that he adds a little more hits here and there with his left hand on the mandalas...

http://joblo3.homestead.com/files/Danny_Stoned.mp3

Nice! I hear that as a slow 3/4, with a 5-note pattern being superimposed over a 16th-note groove. It would repeat itself every 5 bars.

You'd probably enjoy some of Gary Chaffee's "Patterns" books - they explore a lot of this kind of stuff.

yeah, what he said.    ;D 

Yep - 3/4 with 5/16 in the BD running against across the bar lines.

The toms, hat and snare are all in 3 -

counting in 16ths - the toms play 1 e * a 2 * & a * e & *

the hat plays basic 1/4's - 1 * * * 2 * * * 3 * * *

and the snare on beat 3 only (which fits with a rest in the tom part)

the BD in 5/16 plays on beats 1 & 3  - again in 16ths   1 * 3 * *

very hard to both make feel good and to always know where you are at...


David

This notation explains the independant beats, but doesn't explain the interaction between all of them.

I prefer talking about a 4 way polyrythm between the 4 members of the body playing them. It's much simpler to count afterwards (for me) and easier tu understand for non-drummers :P

And yes, like every complex polyrythm, it's hard to know where your at without strong concentration or muscle memory, and challenging to make "feel good" since a 1 note mis-placement will ruin the whole mesure.

I get what you're saying, but in general, disagree. The benefit of notation is that it is accurate and specific. While verbal descriptions of things like poly-rhythms are often times quite nebulous. For examples, the relationship of the toms to the hihat could be described as "four over three" - but that is a long way from describing the actual rhythm being played on the toms.

The toms against the bass drum are "20 over 12" (20 two note tom events happen in the same space as 12 two note bass drum events) - but again with no info on what those two note events might be. This is a simpler path to learning to play this rhythm? I doubt it.


But this isn't a 4 way polyrhythm. At the most, it is three way. The toms over the hat/snare is 4:3 - put the bass drum against that and you have 15:12 (or 5:4) if you feel the BD against the hat. (20:12 if one to consider the toms the pulse - which I can't imagine anyone doing).

But IMO anyone able to master this groove and actually know where they are at all times - meaning be able to stop on one of the third bar - or play a fill in the middle and then resume the pattern - will not be thinking of the BD to HH as 15 over 12, they will be hearing/feeling/COUNTING a 5/16 rhythm played over 3/4.

You see. instead of starting out with the tom/HH/SD combination as a "this against this against that" thing - which is how a polyrhythm is always described. Isn't it easier to just see the pattern as the pretty basic 16th note 3/4 groove that it is. (I get not necessarily basic for all players - but if the 3/4 part of this isn't basic for a given player, then that player has no good reason to be banging their against the 5/16 against 3/4 part of this yet) :-)

Once the 3/4 Tom/SD/HH groove is established as ONE thing, not three things, then we have a base, a foundation, we know where we are, where "1" is at all times - then comes the work of adding the BD part to it.  We've now reduced this to a single independence exercise - the BD part against the 3/4 groove - which again IMO opinion will be both easier to learn and clearer to explain than a "four-way-poly-rhythm".

As cool as poly-rhythms are, always keep in mind that they really aren't foundational to music - not like pulse, meter (time signature), and basic rhythmic values are. Where's the main pulse? What time signature are we in? Define the simplest things, before filling in the complex.

In this example, that would lead you to the 3/4 stuff first. It would also tend to point out that since everythng in this example is all 16th notes - the exercise isn't so much polyrhythmic as it is polymetric.  There is no "7 over 12" or "11 over 6" here, but rather just 5/16 against 3/4 (against, not "over"). Two time signatures appearing to run at the same time - polymetric.

But like polyrhythmic, even polymetric describes something we really aren't good at doing... which is doing two things at one time.  We are much better doing ONE thing at a time.

So make it one thing - decide on the main meter (3/4 in this case) and incorporate the second meter into the first as a mere rhythm (the BD part).  So when playing it - there is no 5/16 against the 3/4 - there is just this rhythm that we've learned to play in 3/4.

Save the complex description to impress people - but to play this stuff and really "own it", reduce it down as much as possible to pulse, meter, and basic rhythms. Reduce it down to a single composite rhythm - never "four things at once"

David

Well thought out explanation David.

I really like your explenation David, but excuse my english, but when I talk about a 4 way rhythm, I talk about the fact that your 4 limbs are playing 4 diffrent things (grooves, beat, etc.) at the same time. This is what amazed me from this rhythm.

I never really studied notations, and pretty much always made my own. I interpret polyrythms based on each of my limbs having to play each rhythm, in order for me to play it.... obviously :P

So for me, when each limbs play on different meters, (even if you can combine some to simplify the whole) I note the groove on every meters.

I have done this for a long time and yeah... it does confuses people, but it got me playing things that I could not without having to study music for 4 years in College ;)