DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

Just got a new remote hi-hat rig so I can place the hats directly in front of my snare - Feels Great! Kind of an "open" placement without totaly moving it to the right (I'm right-handed) so I can still easily do 16ths with both hands comfortably. I think our host, Bart, does this, too.

I spent the past several weeks trying to place my hi-hat (on the standard stand) closer to the snare, farther away from the snare, more to the left, etc. to find something more comfortable.

Thought this would be a great discussion topic for all to chime in on.

Cheers...

This is what I do.  In front, and just off to the right.  My ride is now right next to my hi-hat.  I can't imagine why folks still use the traditional placement since after doing that for years, and then switching. The traditional approach is too cumbersome.

Sometimes I use your configuration, too.  It works well when you are using your right hand primarily for playing an ostinato on closed hats or ride cymbal.  But I still revert back to the standard 5-piece setup (two toms over the bass and floor tom on the right) when I play music that calls for a lot of tom fills.  Both configurations are fun and I do enjoy switching back/forth as my mood changes...

Here's a photo of my set-up from three years ago ...


Now I have a similar set-up except everything is position much lower, and I'm using the 12-inch to the left of the HiHat (no 10-inch), plus a 14-inch (optional) and 16-inch Toms to the right of the HiHat. I'll try to post a new photo soon.

Bart, does that set up change the way you approach fills? It looks like it will hamper cascading fills down the toms. Maybe it takes some getting used to?

It doesn't hamper my fills ... but then again, I'm not very fast.  :'(   ;D

Seriously though, it doesn't really. I think it freaks people out by the looks ... but when you stop and think about it. The distance isn't any greater than if you were to play a standard "large kit" set-up where you skip a few Toms as you go around the kit. I'll have to shoot some video footage to demonstrate at some point. If some of the members here who take video correspondence lessons from me will chime in, they can tell you that it doesn't inhibit moving around the kit.

It does take some getting used to, but it feels very comfortable. For me, the amount of time on the Toms is far less than on the HiHat, so it was worth the change, giving the HiHat priority. There's not much more distance between a standard 4-pc set-up than my set-up. My set-up is much better now; much more comfortable and tighter. Photos coming soon!

The best way to find out is to try it yourself. Experimentation is how I discovered this set-up, and it was long before I saw anyone else doing it ... even though there were many doing it before me.

Those look like 14" hats and I've always used 13". Maybe that 1" might make a difference? I've always been fascinated by remote hats, but more because of the additional sounds I thought I could produce having two hi-hat rigs. That's right, I'd rather have two hi-hats than two bass pedals! ;)

Yahoo!  Another excuse to post a shot of my setup...  ;D  For those who have seen it too many times, please go easy on me! 

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/ryanculberson/CopyofDSCF0814.jpg)

Wow guys, both those setups look super comfortable.

*shakes fist* Great, now I'm in a 'lets re-arrange the drumkit' mood

Don't believe Bart- he's pretty fast.

For me it's the traditional set up.  Hats to the left- 12,13,16 (after living with 10,12,14 for an extended period- I've perfectly content with 12, 13 and 16- actually pretty musical sizes I think)

But I digress-  If I want to play open armed I just do- then it's just a cooridination thing.

A hat on your right side cheating  ;D

Ryno, what is that?  And how the heck do you play it?

Ryno, cool kit, it looks like Darryl Strawberry is getting a big whack at that crash!

Ahh, the Ryno/Chefdoug set up, (oh yeah and that Bruford guy too)
This is how my kit was up until about 2 weeks ago, I had to modify based on what I have to do in my new band but I still have my hats out front, it's just so comfy. I will post when I take new pics.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/chefdoug/newdrumpic3.jpg)

What "that" are you talking about, Felix?   ;D

I'm assuming you're talking about the remote hi hat stand.  It's a DW.  Here's the link for a good description:  http://www.dwdrums.com/hardware/9550.htm

They call it a "universal" hi hat stand.  It's basically the slave pedal and linkage from a double pedal hooked up to a normal hi hat stand (minus the tripod base).  To me, it feels much better than my DW remote/cable hi hat rig.  It feels and reacts much more like a traditional hi hat stand. 

Cheers!

Ryno

That would be Mr. Tony Gwynn.  A personal hero of mine and an excellent motivator to have up on my wall. 

You're right, it does look like he's having a go at the crash!   

 ;D

Oh OK, I really liked Tony Gwynn, great hitter, great guy from what I hear, much better role model that Darryl too!

Man, you were running that rig YEARS before I even contemplated it, so I find it apropos to correct you... it's the Chefdoug/Ryno set up!

Who is this Bruford person you speak of?   ;D

guess I'll jump in here with the Center Hat gang-  I LOVE this config.  It's the most fun I've had since I started playing.  Has really opened up new perspectives to me.  I also like having a ride on either side now too.  Nice to see other folks are enjoying a middle hi-hat position too. 
I've got a couple pics in my Myspace gallery-

I've also recently acquired a 'middle-pedal' that's allowing me to position the bassdrum in the exact center; it's taking a little getting used to, but it keeps the whole thing pretty symmetrical.

How is the response with that cable hat?  I always figured there'd be a bit of a lag.  Can you do fast hat work with it?  2 & 4 hat ostinato in jazz?

I have no problem with mine, but I can understand why some people might since not every Cable HiHat is smooth. I always keep a standard HiHat stand in my hardware case as a back-up. I've done plenty of sessions, including Jazz sessions with my set-up.

Some engineers and producers don't like the set-up because they are stuck in the "old school" way of mixing the drums ... but they get over it.  :)

I've been using my Remote HiHat for over ten years now, and almost that long as my primary HiHat. Once I started using it as my primary, I got rid of the 8-foot cable and got a 3-foot cable. Truth be told, I was in the middle of a session when the 8-foot cable broken ... in the middle of a Jazz tune ... so I had to finish the session with standard HiHat stand. In defense of my Remote HiHat, which I purchased used, the cable was old and was probably abused. I've had this 3-foot cable for about 6 years now, using the Remote HiHat as my primary, and I've had no problems at all. Still, I keep a standard HiHat stand as a back-up ... for prudence sake.

Here is my new center hat set up as of 2 weeks ago. I like it but it is a little different than what I was used to but so far so good. This is more of a hybrid combining my last set up with a more traditional set up. I needed to do this for the new band I'm working with. Check it out....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/chefdoug/newsetup2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/chefdoug/newsetup1.jpg)

I forgot to mention, based on Dave Kropf's question ... I do a LOT of left-foot (HiHat) work in my playing generally. Everything from syncopated figures to fast eighth-notes with the left foot (HiHat). The Remote Cable HiHat responds wonderfully and is very smooth. The only thing that I don't like about it, response wise, is when I'm doing foot splashes. I can achieve them, but it doesn't feel like it does with a standard HiHat stand. It took some getting used to, but I'm fine with it now.

For Straight-Ahead Jazz, I wouldn't use this set-up probably. Not that I couldn't, but my approach is different. The majority of my Jazz time keeping isn't coming from playing on the HiHats ... like what I do in a Rock/Pop/Funk, etc. This set-up is really condusive when playing a LOT of HiHat or playing in a wide variety of styles. If I were just playing Jazz, by that I mean Straight-Ahead, BeBop, and the like ... I would be using my vintage Gretsch "Progressive Jazz" kit ... with a standard HiHat stand.

Hmmmm ... *is thinking of buying one now*  ;D

What do you think of the cable hat (9502 (http://www.dwdrums.com/hardware/9502LB.htm)) versus the universal remote hat (9550 (http://www.dwdrums.com/hardware/9550.htm))?

The 9502 would be my immediate interest, simply because you can mount it a lot easier ... like on a rack. However, the 9550 is cool because there is no cable, which makes me think it will feel more like a standard HiHat stand.

If you can, try them both out. I really wanted the DW Remote HiHat to feel good (I used DW Pedals), but it just didn't meet my needs. Now, in fairness, I haven't tried these new ones out, so hopefully they are smoother and feel better than the ones I've tried in the past.

The Yamaha Remote Cable HiHat I have is old; very old. My buddy bought one just like the one I had, but it wasn't as old as the one I had, and he says his isn't as smooth as mine. In fact he's been checking out every Remote Cable HiHat on the market and he can't find one as smooth as my archaic Yamaha Remote Cable HiHat. That scares me a bit, because if I ever have to replace mine ... well, you know. (http://www.drummercafe.com/forum/Smileys/emoticons/banghead.gif)

Chefdoug, I really like the looks of your set-up. That makes so much sense.

Hi Dave,

I have personal, current experience with both those stands.  To me, there are pros and cons to each of them.  In my opinion, the universal remote hat is superior to the cable hat in terms of feel.  It literally feels just like a regular hi hat stand to me.  I hope this is a correct descriptor, but the action on the universal hat feels more direct than the cable hat.  The action on that stand is as quick as any traditional hi hat stand I've ever used (Iron Cobra, DW 5000 and 9000 for reference). 

Conversely, I can physically feel that my cable hi hat is just a hair less responsive.  It doesn't adversely affect my playing, but I do notice it.  FWIW, I'm using a 4' cable (stock was 8').  One strange positive of that slightly more sluggish feel is that foot splashes are easier for me with that rig.  Couldn't explain why if I had to...  :-\  The cable hat is much more flexible in terms of positioning ease and possibilities.  It's also a lot easier to transport, especially now with the shorter cable.  I use the cable hat for gigs and keep the universal hat at home on my practice kit.

 

 

The thing I don't like about Chefdoug's set-up is that the HiHat is now placed far forward.

One of the reasons I came up with my set-up is that I wanted to be able to not only have the HiHat accessible with both hands comfortably, but I'm also into having my body in a resting position, which I call "fetal position". With my set-up, my elbows are able to stay down by my side the entire time ... and still reach everything. With Chefdoug's set-up, my arms would have to move forward (or I'd have to lean forward) in order to reach the HiHat because the Toms are between the HiHat and the Snare drum.

So for me this set-up wouldn't work. My concept is to always be relaxed when I'm behind the kit and never have to strain or reach for anything. If I do have to reach, I want it to be something that is rarely played or only struck once ... like a Crash cymbal, China cymbal, etc.

  Yes, my hats farther away now, but it's not as far as it looks.  The two toms out front are an 8" and a 10", those are small enough to keep the hats relatively close. I find that I don't have to reach any more than I would if I were using a traditional set up. They are also 15" hi hats so they, if I had 13's(like I used to) they might be harder to reach. Also, I am on the taller side with long enough arms to be comfortable playing like this. The other thing I like is that my left side has opened up for easy placement of my electronics (newly aquired Hart Dynamics Multi-Pad). Furthermore, you may notice in order to put the hats and toms where they are, I needed to angle my bass drum off to the right like if I had 2 bass drums.

Oh, I don't have a problem with the entire set-up ... and I knew that the Toms were 8" and 10". My point is that you can't keep your elbows down. You have to reach forward. If you can't touch your torso with your elbows ... that's my point. You have to burn energy to just keep your arm/hand where you can play the HiHat. I'm more into being totally relaxed and not burning calories just to hold a limb in mid-air, waiting to be used. With my "fetal position" approach, my elbows are down all the time ... and I can reach everything ... hovering over every instrument while keeping my elbows down. This way I'm more relaxed and not burning any energy.

I'm not knocking your set-up ... just pointing out why it wouldn't work for me and others. When you have a large set-up, sacrifices have to made. For me, I don't sacrifice burning energy to play the HiHat, Snare or Kick drum. These three instruments are my "bread & butter" and I spend a lot of time on them, so I want to be as totally as relaxed as possible when playing them. If I have to stretch or move my elbows from my side, burning calories/energy, I want it to be on instruments that I play the least ... in comparison to the Kick, Snare and HiHat.

This is my approach and how I teach.  8)

You are indeed correct about keeping the elbows down and that is one of the reasons I liked my last set up so much. Like you said, you sometimes have to sacrifice some things in a larger set up and unfortunately I had to switch it up to accomodate the material I am playing. I am only reaching out a little further now, but it does add fatigue. So far this is suiting me for the gig at hand. I am always open to trying new things in my set up. I find myself using my ride as equally if not more than my hats and I am still able to keep my ride in nice and close in this set up, even with the huge 24" ride I am using.  As usual with anything different strokes etc....(pun intended!)

I don't like to have to stretch to reach anything either, and I've found that arranging the hats behind the toms but letting them hang over the rims a bit is a good compromise-  it's about the same distance from me as before they were positioned in the center.  It's been a challenge to find the right hardware to make this possible though.

I might have to try the hat between the toms arrangement though, that looks intriguing.

(http://myspace-287.vo.llnwd.net/01276/78/23/1276923287_l.gif)

I'm with Bart on the "hi-hat too far from me" thought when the toms are mounted in front of the hats. My hats are right in front of the snare and I mounted the first tom dead center over the bass drum so it feels VERY MUCH like a traditional four piece setup. No issues zipping around the kit. I, too, felt more comfortable not reaching at all for the hats so I can sit correctly and groove without (at least subconsiously) leaning forward. But we're all physically different and that's just what works for me - T-Rex arms, I guess!

I have no issues with the cable hats and their responsiveness. I have the new DW remote and it's very smooth, no problem doing foot splashes or quick hat beats. I have the 6' cable. Play with the tension to get it right - my setup came very loose. I had to crank the tension to get it where it felt like traditional hats and now it does.

One interesting by-product of the new hat placement I really didn't consider - awesome entry into the drum seat now! Nice wide open access to jump right in.

My setup is nearly identical to Ryno's.  My setup is a bit more tight though.  I like to keep things as close as possible.  Same number of cymbals, all placed nearly the same... again... I like things very tight.  I also have my hi-hat closer to me... about 25% of my snare covered.  I like to sit back in my Roc-n-Soc chair, pressing my back against the backrest.   Its just soooo comfy.

Got any pictures, dea?  I'm curious to see your setup. 

I just ordered a DW 9000 Cable hi hat with an 8 foot cable.

I set it up and I'm feeling a ton of friction and trying to figure out if this is normal or defective..... it seems like I'm fighting the pedal to move the pole up and down. It moves, but it's making a pretty clear rubbing sound and seeming quite sluggish.

Any thoughts?

- Larry

You are right on my friend.  Elbows down and at your side is the key to relaxed playing.  Remember...You are faster when relaxed.  You also have more expressive resolution at your disposal ( your dynamic variance is tighter ( difference between hard and soft ) ).  This mean more expression can be achieved and this is the holy grail of playing as far as I'm concerned.

 
This new way of setting up the kit is very challenging; since I learned that there exist these remote hi-hats, I've been thinking about how I could use them. But as I can't imagine not having a tom in front of my snare, I'll stay with the traditional setup.
As for comfortable sitting and not moving my arms too much, I never use more than two mounted toms and one floor tom, which all are very close to one another.
 

OK, OK, I am now convinced, I will now be purchasing a remote hat rig.  After watching your video Bart the other day I was on the fence now I will be jumping over.  I know everyone is different, but how long should it take to get comfortable with this new set up, I am a pretty fast learner so hopefully not too long.  Guess I will be getting prices tonight, other than the DW any other MFG's suggested....

i like that placement, but i hate how the two toms are separated so that its tricky to roll down the toms.

You should check out Bart's hi-hat ergonomic placement video.  He doesn't seem to have any issues rolling on the toms with that placement.  Quite speedy! 

FWIW, I think that's one of the beauties of a set up like this... that it stimulates different thoughts/patterns instead of the typical descending tom rolls.  That's the effect it's had on my playing.   

I think it's tough to determine how long it will take you ... but if you are a quick study, I doubt it will take you that long.


Most people freak out based on what they see with their eyes and not what they feel when they actually try it. It reminds me of a past thread where everyone is talking about adjusting their gear so that it looks good from the audience. To me, this just shows again that the focus is on what the eye sees and not what the kit feels like. Not that I don't want my kit to look nice, but the priority should be (in my opinion) on how it feels to me when I play it. If I can make it look nice to the audience at the same time, great.

Don't knock or rule out the set-up for yourself until you try it. If you don't like it, that's cool, but at least try the set-up sometime. As you can see in my video, I'm moving between two Toms that are separated quite a bit ... and it's not stopping me from going around the drums quickly.

Just to piggyback on the statements about how our gear looks...

At every gig I play there is at least one person afterwards that will ask me about my unusual set up.  They also usually tell me how cool it looks because they can actually see me playing every note.

I'll second Bart's opinion of don't knock it until you TRY it.   :)