Drummer Cafe Community Forum

Anyone have any thoughts or theories about how to get a great bop/post-bop sounding drum kit ala Max Roach?  Is it all in the sizes?  Heads?  Tuning?  Brand?  I'm looking to recreate that particular sound (especially in the toms).

I've dug around some, but I'm interested to see if anyone here has had experience duplicating the vintage drum sounds of the 50's and 60's without actually having vintage gear.

Thanks!

Size, tuning and heads, in that order. It's easiest to get that sound with small drums, with 12, 14, and 18 being the norm. Whatever sizes you have, tune tight, and use coated heads. I get a killer sound out of my ultra-cheap Pearl Forums, which I've tuned up high for bop gigs.

I like the Aquarian Modern Vintage heads, but regular coated heads sound great cranked up, too. The coating on the MV heads is pretty thick, so I ended up using coated MVs on top and clear 1-ply heads on the bottoms of my toms, with MVs with built-in felt strips on both sides of my bass drum.

I can only add a couple of thoughts to Mr A's contribution.......
Did you see Max Roach in person in the 50's/60's?
If not, then I guess the recording medium would have a big effect on the sound you are hearing.
It's obvious, but there is no way to replicate those vintage recordings.

Contemporary drums tend to sound very contemporary to my ears. One reason I'm guessing is the edges.
I think many vintage drums had rounder edges. I suppose you don't want to go so far as having your drums re-edged?  ::)

Finally, you can get a vintage sound from newer drums with careful head choice (as Mr A suggests).
Perhaps a Fibreskin of some kind?

I agree with everything Mr. A said about the toms. At least, that's the method I use and the sound I get. I find it's best not to mess with the reso heads, although you might loosen them if you're getting too much tone choke with the tighter batter head settings.

The bass drum is a bit a challenge, though. They sounded like floor toms back in the day, and unless you have a 16" laying around your storage room, it's hard to get more tone and less boom from the modern bass drums. Anyone ever tried the Fibreskin BD batter heads? Felt beater head?

Yes to both.
But I'm not a jazz drummer, so I can't really give you an analytical breakdown.
Sounds nice is about all I can say.

i think the first step is to shoot for a rubbery, boingy bass drum-- the opposite of the nice thud that all us post-hal blaine players usually seek. but back then, though the 20" ruled, there were plenty of 18s and 22's. Maybe a felt strip, but certainly no pillows!

And toms: tune 'em high... and I was treated to a very nice tip from Joe LaBarbara when I mentioned, "I find it difficult to play on toms tuned 'be-bop' high"   He said, "Oh, tune the BOTTOM head real high... the top is pretty high, but still very playable."  He let me tap on his... nice guy!  (Gretsch 12, 14, 18 BTW)

+1 on sizes in general... but considering available examples of modern jazz players' sound, i don't think you have to get all vintage to get it sounding 'bop.'

IANAEBD*, but:

I keep seeing three factors, historical factors, that seem to be the kernel of the bop sound:  portable drums, economy, and volume.

There's the small bass drum, whether it be taxicab-trunk sized, made for a small footprint, or a way for Gretsch to use up odd shells.  The toms as they are usually sized seem an appropriate compromise between tone and overall volume.  The snare drum---well, snare drums can be personal things; you may as well randomly debate someone on the divisive issues of the day. :) 

And, certainly those heads would have to last if one isn't drawing steady pay---I'm sure all of us have (or still do, in the case of myself) reused batter heads on the resonant side, cranking them as little as possible, just enough to get the dishing out---which still ends up somewhat high-pitched.  The batter will most likely follow suit, either sympathetically to the resonant head or to get more life out of it on its own accord.

And then these variables combine, and a preference is established.

Incidentally, I've heard a variety of bass drum sounds out of Mr. Blaine, who's not as known for his jazz playing (bop or otherwise)---everything from high-pitched and barely muffled to "kid in the garage who's been playing for five months and heard a Linn bass drum on the radio".

In the end, you could play good bop on a cardboard box [EDIT:  That's my usual throwaway comment about jazz vs. equipment---the specific bop idiom would be a touch harder to interpret, I would concede. :)]---but there are these factors.


*I Am Not An Experienced Bop Drummer :)

I've tried the extra fuzzy vintage felt beater, (I think it's Vater) and it sounded "vintage-ish" to me. It wasn't too expensive, so could be good to try.

You could, but that's not the sound most people associate with a "bop kit." That's a pretty well-established sound that's been defined and maintained over many decades, a sound you still hear in modern drummers like Bill Stewart, Ari Hoenig, and others.

Small bass drums are a pretty modern development, you look at photos of drummers of that era (Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Stan Levey, Roy Haynes etc.) and they are using pretty BIG bass drums.

I wrote a bit more than that which you quoted, including an explanatory edit a few minutes after that very sentence. :P

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/bassbird/Roy.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/bassbird/max.jpg)

Good point. Your comment made me curious. I'm listening to Bud Powell's Paris Sessions right now, and Clarke's BD is a little boomy (although he's deftly tasteful with his dynamics). Never thought about it before or thought much to listen. His sound does change a little from song to song, but I think these were recorded over a couple of years.

Hayne's drum doesn't look that big in the photo. Remember, he's tiny... It looks like a 20 or 22". That said, Elvin was one of the first guys to incorporate the bass drum in as part of a "drum choir".

Big valid point, partially backed up by the sound of Mr.A's Pearl kit.  Older drums also often had some if not lots of mahogany in them.  Or in the case of Gretsch, a fair bit of gum wood, which is softer than the surrounding maple.   Asian mahogany can't hold as sharp an edge as maple given its looser grain.  Which also imparts a sound with attenuated high end.   That less "precise" edge and softer wood is more comprable to the rounder edges, and warmer woods older drums had. 

Honestly I think Mr.A took a great approach to getting a modern bop kit.  Sometimes you'll want to replace the hardware, but the shells, paired with decent heads, can be a great combo, and cheaper than trying to get that sound out of contempoary maple kits. 

Not THAT tiny, I shook his hand at Birdland a few weeks back and he's maybe 5'5" or 6" now (at 81), back in the day spot him at least another coupla inches. But yeah, a 20" or 22" in that photo.

To quote Lavar Burton, you don't have to take my word for it. Poke around, books or online. Or old album photos. Most folks are playing 26" bass drums.

I totally love the Vintage Bomber. Soft attack, big round boom.  8)

On bop albums? Nope. On big band and swing records, yes, but on the kind of records that people now talk about having a "bop drum sound" it's mostly 20's and later 18's. That's a 20 Roy's playing in the photo you posted, or at the very most, a 22, but the 8 lugs make me think it's a 20. And most of the photos you'll see of Art and Max show them playing 20's, and of course Tony and Elvin really helped make 18's popular.

Nowadays Bill Stewart leads the pack with his 18" bass drum, while Ari Hoenig and Brian Blade frequently play 16" bass drums.

Bottom line, when you hear guys talk about "a bop kit" or tuning for "a bop sound," they're referring to the high-pitched sound of a small-sized set of drums, with the standard being an 18" bass and 12 and 14" toms.

Everyone's pretty much hit the nail on the head, coated heads, tuned up high, and smaller drums.  A good way to get there with modern kits is to go with something like the Gretsch Catalina Club Jazz series.  A fairly inexpensive way to get it with vintage kits, is to go with an old Pearl stencil (Tempro, Maxwin, Whitehall etc).  My first kit was a old Tempro Pro that I got for $50, including a WFL Speed King pedal.  I ended up selling it to a church I was working at, I regret it though.

On bop albums? Yup. The records that most people here are talking about happened well AFTER the "bop" era. Case in point, check out the picture of Max's kit at the recently released "found" recordings of the Dizzy/Bird Town Hall concert, that's at least a 26". And this is a concert that was recorded only 3 months after the first Dizzy/Bird studio recording. I don't think Max left his 18" in the studio so he could bring his bigger drum to the studio. Kenny Clarke and Stan Levey, there's plenty of early pcitures of them with large kits, if you really want me to dig them up I will.

Yes, there was a movement to smaller kits AFTER the bop movement. The small bass drum didn't become "standard" until much later.

I stand by my assertion of what most drummers are referring to when they talk about a "bop drum sound."

(http://pascal.mathelon.free.fr/photos/roach2.jpg)


(http://louisville.edu/music/localresources/images/jazz/jazzweek2002/Photos/Elvin%20Jones%20Clinic/Elvin%27s%20set%202.jpg)


(http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/b/blakey_art~_rootsherb_101b.jpg)

That's Jo Jones ... the drumhead says "C/B" as in Count Basie.  This same pic (but larger) can be found on drummerworld.com. (http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Papa_Joe_Jones.html)

(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum/dpa38/papajojones.jpg)

Regarding kit size, these large kits were used during the swing/big band era for volume  if any other reason (and pre-mic'ing).  In the bop/post-bop/cool/hard-bop era, kit sizes were much smaller.

Here's a pic of Max with Diz, Bird, Mingus, and Bud.  Note the TINY kit.

(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum/dpa16/MaxRoach2.jpg)

... Elvin w/ Trane:

(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum/drummerpictures4/Elvin_Jones2.jpg)

... Morello during the West coast era:

(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum40/joe_morello_card.jpg)

... Kenny Clarke with MJQ:

(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum/dpa52/conniekay1.jpg)

... and Tony (probably late 60's)

(http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum36/tonywilliams.jpg)

PAPA JO - mea maxima culpa, I snagged the wrong pic, I was going for one of Kenny Clarke.

MR.A - The lead picture of Max in your post is NOT from the early part of his career (just look at the tie!), my contention has never been that drum sets didn't get smaller. The MASSEY HALL concert occurred at the very end of the "bop" era, in 1953 about a year and a half before Bird's death. Look at Max's kit (playing with the same frontline) on the LIVE AT TOWN HALL recording from 1945. Contemporary photographs aside, what Elvin/Tony/Blakey played in the mid to late 50s doesn't really have a bearing on what was recorded from 1945 - 49, which was the height of the bop era.

If I've got to drag out pictorial, gimme a few days to get stuff scanned.

kohei,

I know you play that genre now. What configuration do you use? Do you use the big BD, like Clarke? If so, any other players comment on it?

I'm not arguing music history here. I'm saying that the sounds (and sizes) associated with what MOST drummers call a "bop" sound are small drums, like the photos I've shown. It might be more historically accurate to say they are "post bop" sizes, but I've never heard a drummer call them that.

Instead, when somebody talks about a "bop kit" the automatic assumption is a 4-piece kit in small sizes - whether or not that's what they used in 1945. Fair enough?

I'm not a drummer, but I play one on TV.

I'm a bassist and most of the drummers I  play with are using 16s. But that's because they are going for a more post bop sound AND because it's a lot easier to get around on the subway with it. But that's one of the reasosn for the evolution in drum size, the guys that were getting away from playing 4 on the floor wanted something a lot more controllable and responsive which is why, in the VERY late 40's (48,49) and early 50s drum sizes started coming down.

I'm not saying that they don't call it that but, again, that seems to be based on music that came "after the fact". On another board somewhere somebody had posted some remarks attributed to Stewart Copeland where he talks about "early Miles records". Which is all well and good until he starts talking about the way Herbie, Ron and Tony are playing on them. So, to him, a record that was put on vinyl 15 years or so after Miles first date as a leader is early. Well, OK, but not really.

The bottom line is that, as someone said earlier I think, it kind of doesn't matter WHAT you play, it's HOW you play. I have had the good fortune to play with a couple of drummers from the post bop era and it really didn't matter what size drums they were sitting behind.

True, but this thread is about how to get a certain kind of drum sound. My answers have been focused on that.

Got to agree with Mr. A.

And if people talk about Elvin's sound, they mean Gretsch drums and the old imported K's. That is--dark sounding cymbals and drums. Which is by no means the only sound used by jazz drummers. But to a whole lot of people that was the bop sound like Slingerland and Zildjian A's were associated with big bands ala Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich. Both drummers also used the same stuff for small combos too, but that is not what people associate them with.

About the coated heads, just about everybody used coated heads for all types of music in the 60's. In the 50's everybody was using skins, the real thing.

I'd love to hear a Krupa bop tune.  :D

Too much iformation!  :)

Well it ain't Krupa but there's a nice vid on youtube of Buddy Rich (I know, I just like to hear it) with Bird, off of French TV...