DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

I'm a little wary about asking technique questions on here because it looks like most of you are far more experienced drummers than I am. My questions may seem a little simplistic. There are a couple techniques that I have yet to master however and one in particular frustrates me. That is the 'press' roll. On the snare drum. I have yet to figure out exactly how that is done and am always impressed when I hear someone do that very well, making a hissing sound. Within your ability to explain that on a forum, what are the basic mechanics of doing a press roll, i.e. grip, stick action etc. BTW, I hold my sticks left hand thumb up and right hand palm over, not the traditional grip so to speak.

I guess to be clearer on exactly what I am speaking of, I don't mean a standard snare roll, I'm refering to that real tight to the head with nearly no lift creating a more hissing sort of sound. I've always thought that technique was called a 'press roll' but maybe I'm incorrect(?)  :-\

You mean a "multiple bounce roll" or a "press roll" or a "closed roll" or "buzz roll". The trick is to get as many bounces from the sticks with the least amount of tension or pressure with the hands.

Just to start, Hold your forearm roughly parallel to the floor and drum head. Cock your wrist back so the stick is about 6 inches from the head. Following the natural arch of your wrist, drop your hand and the stick to the head. Notice I said "drop" not push, throw or stab... Keep your hand relaxed and only grip the stick as tight as needed to not drop it altogether. When the stick hits the head, just let the stick do what it pleases. Don't squeeze your fingers tight, or pick it up, just drop it loosely and let it bounce. Notice that the stick bounces on it's own with the bounces getting a little closer together as it loses momentum. With a closed roll you're trying to encourage as many of those small bounces as possible.

In order to close the space between the first bounce and the next, a slight bit of pressure must be applied to the stick with the fingers, particularly the middle finger for matched grip players. Try this: when the stick hits the head, close your hand - i.e. pull up with all your fingers (not your wrist) reasonably hard. Notice that the stick bounces close together, but doesn't bounce for very long and quickly stops against the head.  Do the same again, but don't pull up so much with the fingers. Loosen off until you can get as many bounces as possible without the initial gap. Don't choke the stick with your middle finger, just pull up enough to help tighten up the bounces.

Try it with one hand at a time at first. Just repeat the same motion until you can get the right "pressure" to control the bounces without stopping them or tensing up. The whole motion should be relaxed. With a little encouragement, the stick will do the work for you. Each time, let all of the momentum bounce its way out of the stick until it stops on the head. Then pick the stick up and do it again.

When you have some control over the bounces with both hands just play alternating strokes and try to get as many bounces as possible. Do it slowly, even if there is some space between when one hand leaves off and the other starts. First concentrate on getting lots of bounces and staying relaxed through the entire motion. As you get it, you can speed up, close the roll and you're off to the races. A good way to work on this is to play a bar of 8th notes as single strokes and then a bar of 8th notes as buzz strokes. This will help get your hands used to alternating between the two motions. The wrist movement should stay the same, you just adjust the pressure with your finger(s) to create the buzz.

Also, check out Bart's 5-Minute Lessons - there's something in there called "The Rebound Game" - check it out.

I can do it, but it's sloppy enough for me to be embarrassed by my current state of closed/press/buzz rolls.

But, even while still not being totally there, I think I can safely  :)  offer up these two adders to what has been said:

- You really should have general double stroke technique down first.  It's a precursor to then pressing the rolls.

- When you do get this, a whole lot of speed is not necessary.  Your hands don't have to alternate very quickly to create the roll.  It's all about seamlessly overlapping the bounces and strokes of each hand.

Thanks to both of you. So, if I understand this in a nutshell, it is less control of the sticks with ones grip, not more.(?) That's likely at least a part of the trouble I have in doing it well. I'm always amazed when I see guys effortlessly zip a long one of those off like no big deal as an accent put on the end etc. With a distinctive shimmery hisssss. I've always liked to play hard/heavy etc and have neglected alot of more subtle, basic drum techniques. That's the kind of drum stuff I'm working on now and giving my attention to. Also, to allow the sticks to 'do their thing', seems like you need pretty tight tension on the batter head of the snare to get any duration out ofthat kind of roll otherwise it'd peter out quickly. I hear guys doing quite long press rolls and can quite figure out how that keep that going like that.

I wouldn't use a term like *less control*.
A Loose grip is recommended, but it's still Controlled.

You mention seeing people able to do it for a long time.  When you get this, you'll be able to do it for 5 seconds or 5 minutes - it won't make a difference.  It has nothing to do with muscling it or needing a whole lot of energy or endurance.

My recommendations would be:

1. Study good, loose, bounce-based grip/stroke technique.  Dave Weckl is a good source.

2. Practice standard double stroke rolls at various tempos.  The VicFirth site  has some good clips you can play along to to measure your progress.  Get comfortable control of your doubles.

3. Start your press/buzz roll journey, staying focused on a relaxed approach.

4. If there's a teacher in the area who knows this stuff, hook up.

5. Go further than me.    ;)   [which isn't very far]

I've done press rolls for several years. It just takes a desire to learn one hand rolls, and many hours of practice. That's the hard part.    ::)   I can do short ones during songs, but I've gave up on doing long ones.   :-[ 

Well, they've managed to get lots of bounces with each hand, and then have learned to alternately overlap the bounces as they use both hands. If you can play rrrrrrrrr lllllllllllll (a buzz stroke with each hand) you can play a long buzz roll for as long as your hands will let you. It's one stick at a time.

I forgot to mention this in my earlier response, but the advice given to find a qualified teacher in your area is the best given here. So many things are far easier to demonstrate than to explain in text. Get a teacher, you'll thank yourself later. ;)

He's right, it takes a lot of practice. If you get around to practicing it, don't get discouraged, it's incredibly easy once you get the hang of it, I find myself improvising with them all the time :)

I've really desired to get a drum teacher for some time now even after all these years, but feel a bit goofy going in and asking just for lessons in certain techniques. I am pretty cocky(or maybe hardheaded) to be honest when it comes to my own 'stuff' or my own personal mechanics of how I play and shy away from seeking teaching ONLY because I just don't want to argue or debate with a teacher about anything. You know how it is, you'll get in there with the lesson already agreed upon, then this guy will start picking apart every little thing you do that hasn't a thing to do with what you're in there for. I deal with that alot and it's like hey, I want to know about this or that, not have you try and reconstruct me as a drummer. Hope that doesn't sound bad but I have to believe I'm not the only one to experience that...I can see it now...;Newspaper advert,..."Seeking Drum Teacher To Show Me How To Do Press Rolls'...I love to be taught, don't get me wrong because I do enjoy learning from someone who is good in their own right, but that's the experiences I have had in the past. Guys who's doors I could blow off in the overall, wanting to learn one lil thing I don't do well and they lean right in to overly critiquing my whole catalog if you know what I mean. Just not fun. Be nice to have someone so good they aren't the least bit 'threatened' by me, so then it'd all be straight up learning.

[off-topic maybe?]
I think I could do this press roll when I played with a traditional grip long ago. Now I don't think I can with the matched and heavy playing grip. Does anybody think it may depend on the grip, too? (I don't think so.)

 I first learned it using a matched grip, I was able to learn right away how to do it Traditionally (albeit I wasn't nearly as good at it). I think most of the same bouncing and control physics apply. I guess it depends on the player and the amount of time spent fooling around with the technique, (or maybe different areas of wrist development?)

I think the first thing to understand press rolls is understanding the strokes (the motion of the sticks) are exactly like an open roll. The difference between open and pressed rolls is how the fingers work to produce rebound. Just like open rolls, pressed rolls have a "skeleton" stroking system -- typically eighth-note triplets, sixteenths, or even sextuplets. Whichever "skeleton" you're using will determine the intensity of the roll, and the more strokes you use per quarter- or eighth-note will decrease the number of bounces required to produce a press roll. So if you're using eighth-note triplets as your skeleton, you need probably twice as many bounces in your press roll then if you use sextuplets, because there's half the space between strokes in an eighth-note triplet from a sextuplet.

Bart is the first person I've ever heard actually counting rebounds for a press roll, which is dang impressive to me. I learned by just "crushing" strokes, one by one in quarter-note succession, until each hand could produce a crushed stroke that sounded like those in a press roll. Then I started putting them together and worked on smoothing them out. I have no idea how many bounces I produce. Wish I knew Bart back when I was learning how to do it!

http://www.icanplaydrums.com/lesson_multiplebounceroll.htm

Heh. That's a pretty good intro lesson but his buzz rolls stink. They pulse too much. :P

I think the guy's explanation in the video above is pretty good.  The beads of his sticks should probably be closer together to facilitate getting the same sound from each hand.  Also perfectly matched sticks will help.  Playing a good buzz roll is easier said than done.  If you think your roll sounds pretty good just tape record yourself.  You may be surprised.  I know I always am. 

Here are some other suggestions and tips: 

• When practicing try turning the snares off your drum.  The vibration of the snares can help mask some imperfections. 
• Experiment with placing each hand on a different practice surface (pad and drum, two different pads, etc.).  This allows you to isolate each hand and really focus on the quality of sound each hand is producing.
• I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but where the beads of your sticks strike the head in relation to the snares is critical in getting an even sound from your sticks.  Position the snares so they are either running from 9:00 to 3:00, or from 12:00 to 6:00.  Then make sure each stick is striking EXACTLY the same distance from the snares.  If one hand is closer to the snares, your strokes will always sound uneven, no matter what you are playing.
• Also, it's much easier to play a buzz roll closer to the edge of the drum.  Playing dead center is extremely difficult because that's the node of the drumhead, the point of least vibration.  Try playing about about 2 to 4 inches from the edge of the drum.
• Another thing is that the softer you play, the slower your hands should move, and the louder you play, the faster they should move.  When playing softer, move closer to the edge of the drum.
• And last but not least, get a good pair of sticks.  Chipped or nicked up beads will make your roll sound uneven, as will sticks that are un-matched in pitch or weight.

For some additional info, here's a link to a website I used to maintain. 
http://f.unkster.tripod.com/faq.html#buzzes
I haven't updated the site in years, so it's in really bad shape, but you might still be able to get a little something out of this explanation of how to play buzz rolls.  If not, that's OK too.

I think this is a good example of all our different levels - and ears - and priorities.

I personally think many people would be just Delighted to play a buzz roll that way.

Bottom line - he's a very good teacher, and a very good player.

Just to be clear, when I made the above statement I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular.  I should have said, "If one feels their buzz rolls sound pretty good, they should tape record themselves."  The point is we can often fool ourselves into thinking we sound better than we actually do.  Recording yourself is an easy way to step back and listen to yourself objectively.  I honestly don't know if I've every heard a perfect buzz roll, although some orchestral guys like Buster Bailey and Tom Freer come darn close.   

A great buzz roll is an art in and of itself.

There are some orchestral players that have buzz rolls so perfected that it sounds like sand being evenly poured over an outstretched piece of tin foil.

Besides all the other good advice in this thread, I'd just add to do them slow and deliberate when you are practicing them. Then work them up to speed.

Wow. Great info guys. I hadn't been on in awhile and didn't get to see all these great responses til today. I'm growing in my drumming and that wouldn't be a big deal except I realized there's alot I simply didn't use in terms of techniques and until recently didn't care much to be honest. I'm also playing more in the last year or so than I had in maybe 10 years prior so like my other post about musical styles and learning new ones same applies to what I've left out in terms of what to many may well be basic stuff, like press rolls. Probably simple stuff for many of you, but I just never botherred with it. I'm approaching the drums now in a way as though I am just starting.

motech, I know that my teacher has a couple students who are out on their own, playing in bands, who come in for an occasional lesson to brush up on something that they're weak on. I don't think that you should feel "goofy" asking a teacher for specific advice, and I'd think that a good teacher would be happy to teach you at the level where you are, w/o feeling like you need all the basics regurgitated at you.
 I am wondering about your grip tho--you say that you hold your left hand thumb up and your right palm down, but not traditional grip. So you're talking matched grip. But I was taught matched grip as being both hands w/ palms down. I'd think your left hand would tend to be a bit stiff playing w/ thumb up. So that might be a basic for you to work on.

Don't worry about asking questions, even if you think they're too simple. This is a great place to learn, lots of good advice and professional attitudes. No flaming here. :)  And there's always many more of us who have a lot to learn too.

robyn

 Yes, that's why I was careful not to even use the term 'matched grip' because in truth, I don't have a matched grip that way. Actually my left isn't stiff. I have a relatively loose grip with alot of wrist action. I think, if anything, my wrists are my strength among many weaknesses in terms of drumming. I've got quite strong and flexible in all directions wrists lol. My strokes are fairly compact. Only drums I really ever put alot of arm into are my floor toms. I am sure, however, the grip likely changes at least a little as I play in terms of position. Not something I really notice while I'm playing. Just not that technically knowledgeable about it. I just know I naturally tend to hold the sticks that way. Doing it the 'right' way, traditional grip I doubt I could even play the drums at all, just never worked for me.

When you refer to your grip,I have heard the thumb on top of the stick being referred to as the french grip,palm down as german and somewhere in between as american,In thunder of drums , John Bonhams bio,they said he played one hand french and one german alot of the time.I have seen many drummers use french grip on the ride cymbal for certain figures.

When I first heard of these 3 distinctions, back in the '70s, it was in connection with timpani playing. The French grip was indeed held with the thumb on the top, so when you are looking straight down at your hand, you see the thumb. But it's more than just a position, it's also how you use the back fingers, a lot more finger control of the stroke than wrist. German was explained to me as pretty much the standard snare drum grip, back of the hand up, more of a wrist stroke than fingers.

Then a graduate student came in to North Texas who had been studying Timpani in Germany for 3 years. Completely destroyed what I had thought German grip was. Yes, the back of the hand is up, but the sticks were held very loosely, back fingers completely off the stick, and the stroke was a Moeller type. The mallets were also very different, very thin shafts with very large, puffy heads. Extremely relaxed, very dark tonal sound.

American would be what I was taught by Kal Cherry of the Dallas Symphony. Closer to the French, but the hand slightly tilted to the inside, so the muscle between the thumb and index finger is on top. The stroke, however was completely different, a wrist rotation similar to what I do now with 4-mallet marimba using Stevens technique.

Here's Dom Famularo doing an OK job of explaining grips. It's not Jojo good, but it's plenty good enough:

French Grip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTPbb35JcUI)
German Grip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYj8N3bQ8VM&feature=related)
American Grip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VUTwzxR2o8&feature=related)

I personally refuse to teach American grip because I'm convinced it leads to bad habits -- rotating the wrist in a way the wrist was not meant to be rotated, leading to potential damage. For matched grip, I prefer to teach German grip, but I personally use a French grip in the right hand for swing ride.

I wish Dom had explained the rotation of the forearm in the French Grip. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of the thumbs-up grip. I see a lot of people play with their thumbs on top, but their forearms are spread too far apart and they're using the limited motion of the wrist side to side and the the elbow to produce the strokes - a recipe for disaster in the wrist and thumbs. It's SOOOO important, with all the bad information kicking around on the web, etc., to emphasise that the French Grip uses the rotation of the radius over the ulna bone like when you're waving to someone.

Doubles are way too under rated.  
I use them more than singles in every aspect of my playing ( slow or fast.  it makes no diff ).
Doubles are way too under rated.
The expressive headroom acquired by doubles is far greater than singles ( assuming identical playing circumstance, i.e. same speed, same groove, etc. )
Broken doubles are to die for.  Especially, when coupled with accent placement.
Doubles are way too under rated.
Speed is only one skill doubles can help one achieve ( way too over rated ).
Doubles can help one create wonderfully expressive single handed melodic tom fills that are not overbearing ( again, slow or fast, it makes no diff ).
...and Doubles are way too under rated.