Drummer Cafe Community Forum

I hope this thread hasn't been done before.  [searched, didn't find]

I'd like to get some dialog going on how people have successfully used Audacity.
Audacity, if you don't know, is an amazing, free - yes, free - multitrack recording app for Windows PCs. 

I need to record some clips this weekend - rapidly.  I will not be overpondering tone.  Especially since I am probably going to have to do this with a single Radio Shack mic.
But, I need to get some clips together of me playing - even if the sound quality is poor - since this recently got in the way of getting an audition.

Have you succeeded in recording a track while listening to the playback of a track?
I know that's the whole Point, but when I tried it last year, I got some latency, and the time of the two tracks was not In Sync.  It freaked me out until I realized it was the App.  :)  I later found one or more settings I needed to change, but now I can't remember what they were.

Anybody?

I have Audacity but do not use it to record.  If no one answers I can check into it when I get home and should have an answer for you by Friday night.  I also know two people who mess around with it and will call them to see if they have an answer off the top of their head.  They should be home around 5 or so tonight. 

Louis - thank you much.

All - can anyone recommend a cheap, 1/8" jack mic from a Best Buy or Radio Shack that won't completely rot for this exercise?   :)

Since I have Pro Tools the only time I use Audacity is then making RingTones ... so I don't think I'll be much help or have much to add or suggest.

Frank,

First import or record the first track. Next open the "Audio I/O" section of the Audacity preferences, and check the box labeled Play other tracks while recording new one. Close the preferences and press the Record button.  That should do it for you.  My friend was between flights and gave me this info.  If you have more problems let me know. 

Thanks so much.
There may be one other setting I need to find, but I'll see.

I have a vague recollection of quickly finding the setting you mentioned, and getting the multitracking working properly, but then needing to find another setting to reduce/eliminate recording the second track out of sync with the first.

Thanks again.

He said that setting would correct most latency problems.  There can be problems with some computers that can not be corrected.  If you do not check the box you can still record multiple tracks but they will not sync automatically.

You do have some closed-ear headphones (or at least some earbuds) to listen to playback with, right?

Yes.

Frank,  Audacity is great!!  I used to use it to record directly to my laptop.  Now I use my IPOD, then use Audacity to edit and convert to MP3.  My needs are real basic and I don't use 90% of Audacity's features so I'm no expert, but....

I don't know if this will help but a while back while setting up "PrintMusic" on my laptop to transcribe drum parts from my Roland VDrum I learned that recording through the external usb midi device while listening to the click directly from my Vdrum created a delay.  The problem was solved by by using the midi device for both input and output.  I don't know enough about your setup to say this is a similar problem but I can tell you that if you don't have a good sound card or if your using different input and output, you can create the latency problem.  Good luck.. 

If you're still having latency problems it may be due to your sound card/interface, or lack thereof. The more tracks you build up the more you will notice the latency, and how much your computer can actually handle. When recording, you'll want that latency as low as possible. When you mix, you can actually bump the latency up to take some of the load off of your PC, freeing resources to run more tracks and/or FX smoothly.

I didn't realize Audacity was free. I'll have to check it out again. There is another free multi-track program called Reaper.

Most of what I'll be doing with it will be just two tracks:
- Reference track of some sort
- Me

I have used it for song edits and song transposes for years. 
This is the first time I'll use beyond one track in a while.

Can't wait for the weekend to get to this.

Hopefully what I hear on playback won't freak me out.  :)

Well, I either have to put all my sticks into a wood chipper, or
go buy a recorder I can't afford, because I can't spend another minute trying
to do it on the computer.

My playing is way behind the beat, and either I'm that terrible - a possibility - or this computer is torturing me.

A terrible morning.

Ah man, that is no fun! My guess is that if that setting Louis suggested didn't solve the latency problem, you need to buy a decent sound card or USB/Firewire interface. There are relatively cheap stereo and mono interfaces. You will want one with mic inputs, not just line inputs. Check this one out by Presonus...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/PreSonus-INSPIRE-1394-FireWire-Audio-Interface?sku=241483

Here's a review from Tape Op.
http://www.presonus.com/tapeopreview-inspire1394.html
And the main product page at Presonus
http://www.presonus.com/inspire1394.html

That will give you the ability to record four tracks at once! It also has phantom power in case you eventually pick up a condenser microphone. You can daisy chain up to four of them together if you need more inputs. It doesn't have MIDI I/O though, which I think is a draw back for any audio interface, but if you don't need that then it's not a problem.

I've used the Presonus Firebox for about two years now and it has been rock solid.

Even after recording just solo, so that I don't have latency to blame, I'm hearing very bad things in my playing that I just didn't hear before.  It has been a dark weekend, to say the least.

Anyway, while 80% of what I'm hearing wrong is My Playing, 20% is the horrific audio I'm getting.  Right now I'm using - don't laugh - a computer mic - and it's giving me exactly what I paid for it.

I can't afford a whole set of good drum mics.  Can anyone recommend a single, inexpensive omnidirectional mic that Might be able to capture the drums not too badly?

I'm not looking for ultimate tone.  I can't afford it.  I'm just looking to be able to put my barf pail away.   

Hey Frank,

I use Audacity to record myself singing and playing guitar, and I just use a SM57 to capture it. The quality isn't great of course, but the 57s are cheap and will record your drums a lot better than the computer mic.

But an SM57 is unidirectional, yes, meaning I need a bunch.

?

You don't need an omni mic for your OH (though they are nice in that role). You can use a mic with a cardioid (unidirectional) pattern. With omni mics, you are getting a mix of what you are pointed at and the room, whereas a cardioid pattern will block out a lot of what it isn't focussed on. Many times people use a stereo pair of cardioid mics for OHs. Personally, I've enjoyed using a single omni OH (plus a mic on kick, snare, and maybe a room mic). If you were to get two matching cardioid pattern mics you could set up via the Glyn Johns method- using two mics (plus maybe a kick mic) to get a pretty good image of the whole kit. If you get a single mic for OH, you may want to get an extra mic to put on the kick. However, instead of using a single mic as an OH, you could use it as a room mic a few feet in front of the kit about level with the top of the kick, and you will get a fairly decent image of the whole kit. My band mate and I use a mic in that way when we record our practices. It's nothing spectacular but it gets the job done well.

I would suggest getting a condenser mic if it is the only mic you will have. A large diaphragm condenser works great as a room mic, and if it can handle high SPL levels, as an overhead. However, you will need phantom power to run a condenser mic of any type. My LDC is the MXL 2001. Works great as a room mic. My SDCs are two MXL 604s, with swappable cardioid and omni caps. I use one of those as a mono omni OH on my kit, and sometimes I'll use one on my snare with the cardioid cap. MXL mics aren't anywhere close to a Neumann, but they are good enough on a budget. You will also need a preamp for your mic(s), and a proper interface for your PC. You may be able to get by with a dynamic mic and an adapter going straight into your PC mic input, but I don't know if you'll be able to boost the gain enough. I also wouldn't guarantee there won't be a noise issue when hooking a mic up to a PC in this way.

There are a couple mics that hook straight to USB. I'm not sure how one of those would fair as a room mic, but it may be a more affordable option than buying a regular mic, plus a new interface for your PC.

The radio shack pressure zone mics aren't completely horrible sounding.  These are high impedance.  I also have a Behringer 8 channel mixing board that needs to go.  I can cut you a great deal on these three pieces which should get you up and going.  When you get a few extra bucks you can use the PZM's for overheads and substitute a good kick and snare mic.  This board will have room for two tom mics after that (4xlr inputs and 3 or 4 stereo line input channels- I have to look).  The PZMs can be rewired to be low impedance also if you get ambitious, but for now they should be an improvement over what you have.  It's small too.

I have two pairs of the PZMS that I never use as well as this board.  I can sell them to you if you wish.  Your latency problems can be tricky, but if you monitor everything "live" before it goes into the computer using a mixing board you will be ok.  And if you go eventually with a larger hardware interface on your computer with multiple inputs, this board has inserts/direct outs, so you will can use its mic pres and or as a headphone amp or in conjunction with another headphone amp.

You need a little board to start with man.  Most people just cough up the dough for a fancy hardware interface these days, but you might be able to make this setup work.  And if it doesn't, you have a board for a PA worse comes to worse.

Felix is right.  It definitely makes it a WHOLE lot easier to run a mixing board for purposes of "live monitoring".  We are drummers, and what we are recording is all going in to the PC via microphone--as opposed to a direct line-in instrument such as a guitar or keyboard (or even e-drums).  So, we really need the ability to do "live monitoring".

In that case, the mixing board gives you that ability, and like Felix mentioned, it also gives you some headphone power, too (maybe not a TON, but it's still a whole lot more than what you can get from your PC alone). 

Now, I would also like to add that as far as a "fancy interface" (a/k/a analog to digital converter) goes, well, I personally would recommend investing in a nice one, but my recording goals are different from yours.  But I can tell you from experience that the converter is just as important or more important than the mics in the recording process.  In other words, a great quality mic makes a huge difference over a low quality mic and the same holds true with converters.  So put a really nice converter with a set of really nice mics (and adding in some good quality mic pre's makes it even better) and you're going to get a GREAT sound with lots of clarity.  But your mixing board at least gives you that "built in" mic pre for each channel. 

What else is important here?  The SOUND CARD....

Anyway, I think you have enough to get started and at least accomplish what you are wanting to at least accomplish initially.  I just thought I'd add some additional food for thought for when you want to improve the quality of your recordings further down the road (which you WILL   ;)).

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress. 

The only downside to using the mixer is that you will end up with a single stereo track recording of both you and the backing track. It's not really a problem, only a minor limitation to keep in mind. Basically, if you want the ability to adjust the levels of the drums or the backing track independent of each other in the mix, you won't be able to. You need to record them separately if you want to do that. If you're good at mixing things the way you want prior to recording, than you should be good to go. However, if you want to overdub on that track you will be in the same position you are currently unless you dump that audio file to a tape or CD, then play it back again through the mixer while you record new stuff. That may not be a concern of yours though since your current needs are just overdubbing to backing music.

As far as monitoring, regardless of whether you're going direct or using a mic, if you are over dubbing you will still need to monitor what it is you are tracking over. Whenever I record I have the headphones on so I can hear what I've done before, and if it's the first track, then I am hearing the click.

You don't need a fancy interface. The Presonus one I linked to is far from fancy and will cost about the same as a small mixer. It uses the same audio drivers and mic pres as the Firebox and Firepod, but levels are adjusted via software rather than manual controls (that's where they saved the money). It also has fewer i/o's. If you get a firewire (or USB) audio interface, you won't need a separate sound card. That interface acts in place of the sound card. I use nothing but my Presonus Firebox (which is a great firewire interface for someone not needing 8 inputs, but more than a stereo pair).

The main reason I suggest a better sound card or interface is that it upgrades the audio drivers on the computer (very important), aside from giving you the proper inputs and connection to the computer as opposed to using a little adapter to plug into the mic or line in on the back of the motherboard. Now don't get me wrong, those little jacks and onboard audio drivers (on some motherboards) will get you by to an extent. I used to use that stuff years ago. I've gone through two top of the line Sound Blaster cards over the years as well. Once I got my Firebox I realized how much of a difference a real interface designed for recording makes. Ten years ago when I started messing with audio on computers you couldn't get a budget interface. Now they are all over the place.

Regardless, good luck with your decision and I hope it helps you get the gigs you want.

Ok, another week has elapsed.
[that pesky job that pays the bills really gets in the way]

I'm set again for another round this weekend.  I still won't be going for
other boards, etc.  But, I do have a legitimate omni mic that says it's *great for instruments* that I will use today.

I also - Finally - figured out the trick that I used to use in the past - to be able to record a CD track and my play-along at the same time.  The *trick* is to select Stereo Mix from the Windows Volume/Sound Control Recording properties.  Once you do that, the *input* to the recording will be both any audio you're playing on the PC at the time, as well as any audio you're collecting through the mic.  I won't be able to mix it later, but at least I'll get a recording - with a reference track - that is guaranteed to not have any latency.  So, one source of my playback torture will be eliminated.

As for my actual performance - suffice to say I have work ahead of me.  I trusted someone here who listened to a few tracks and gave me some feedback.  He heard what I heard, which was not very good.  Listening to the playback was shocking and hard to deal with, because, outside of the fact that I am returning after a long layoff, I Had played for a very long time.  And formally studied - although some won't believe that after I finally share a track publicly.  It was very, very hard to swallow, but, I'm going to Try to not put my sticks in a wood chipper and instead work on improving it.

To be continued...

One thing you may not be aware of is you are facing a two-edged sword.  You are listening to yourself the first time and also dealing with recordingitis.  Remember the first time you heard your recorded voice?  Do I really sound like that?  Recording also increases the pressure on you and can cause you to tense up and not play as well as you normally would play.  The only way to overcome this is to record yourself often and let others critique your work until recording is no more stressful that practice time.  So, for anyone recording themselves the first few times, go easy on yourself when you listen.  I am sure you are better than you will sound on the tape. 

A combination of:

- Relaxing, really relaxing

- Getting the right mix for what I'm Hearing as I'm playing

has made a big difference.

I have lots of work to do, but I'm feeling ok now about keeping my sticks
out of the wood chipper.  The fun has returned.

To be continued...

Definitely! I can practice something so many times and feel really good about it, but once I hit record I have this natural tendency to just tense up and overly think it. Part of relaxing can be your atmosphere... the lighting, the wall color, decor, etc. I can't wait to paint the walls in this room to help me feel more cozy.

The headphone mix is important too. That's why having the ability to create a separate headphone mix from what is actually being tracked is so great- even more so in a band setting where each band member wants to hear something slightly different.

Scenario:
Stereo track with rest of band on left, all of drums on right.

Can Audacity allow me to split left and right, throw out the right, replace it with the left,
so that I have the band in both ears of the headphones?

One of the ways I just Forced relaxed playing is: to play some jazz.

Might sound weird.  But, for me, jazz is much less about power and arrangement, and much more about listening and interacting.  That naturally forces me to relax, so to speak.

I just had a very pleasing play through some jazz tunes.  It's official - I'm sparing my sticks from the wood chipper.   ;D

Stay tuned for the next episode of the daytime soap:
"As Frank Finds his Way"...

I use Audacity too, and it can do this really easily. Hit the down arrow in the trackname just to the right of the close button. Select "Split Stereo Track", then copy and paste one over the other.

To put it back together, go to Project -> Quickmix after selecting which ones you want to put back together.