DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

Okay, first off i've been playing drums for a long while, just as a recreational activity.  Lately I've really wanted to start taking my playing seriously.  I'm okay on the set, but I hardly ever practice with a metronome, so I need to change that I know...  But right now due to scheduling and such I don't have much time on the trap set anymore.

I picked up a practice pad and a few books on rudiments and such (Stick Control is one of them), thinking if I get my hands solid on time and get some good control, I should be a little better coordinated and such on the set.  There's one problem ... I don't know how to read the music.

I struggled and eventually figured out the timing for triplets, but "seeing" what to play is difficult.  Right now i'm trying to play the first solo in "The Rudimental Cookbook" by Edward Freytag.  I'm okay for the first few measures, then there are what look like triplets with one note stretched ... and I don't know if there's a rest there or what.  If I heard the solo played it would be easier, but the book didn't come with a CD.

I've looked at some guides to reading sheet music online, but still can't quite figure it out.  If any of you have this book, you'll see that the measure divisions aren't exactly uniform as well, so that makes it a little more difficult as well.

I'm willing to devote the time it takes to get this down, as I feel it will really improve my playing ... I'm just lost as far as the timing goes. 

Any help or input would be greatly appreciated.

And Hi, this is my first post here.  I'm Mike  :)

EDIT:  I was just poking around again and found a clue ... what do the number of bars connecting notes have to do with the timing?  There's like a single bar connecting two notes, then a little bit of a second bar right above a note.  Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I really can't find anything to help any more.

Check out Norm Weinberg's Web Rhythms (http://www.vicfirth.com/education/features/webrhythms/intro.html) on Vic Firth as a practical introduction to reading. They're progressively difficult passages right from basics, and each has MIDI examples at various tempos for you to listen or play along to.


The number of lines in the beam is the same number of lines that you would have on the "flag" at the top of a non-beamed note stem. In other words, if four notes are beamed with a double-line, those are sixteenths. However, notes that are beamed do not all have to have the same value. To get the value of any note in a beamed figure, just look at the number of lines touching its stem.

You will learn this SO much more quickly and easily with a live teacher. Invest in a few lessons, and you'll avoid making any mistaken assumptions, plus you'll be able to rapidly eliminate any of the occasional confusion you'll inevitably encounter.

Books and the Internet are great resources. But when you're getting your basics together, there is NO substitute for a real live teacher. A teacher can see and hear what you're doing wrong, and correct your problem in minutes, not weeks or months. Just say yes to drum lessons!   ;D

Amen, Mr. A.

When I first started playing I was taught patterns, scales, chords and rudiments.  From there we were taught basically to improvise by ear and I learned many jazz standards and other great tunes that way.  I still think it was a great way to begin because I found myself actually playing tunes as a beginner and I was never board.

It did not take long however for the challenges of not being able to read to set in.  Had it not been for the fact my Dad is a great sight reader and knew the importance of reading, I don't know if I would have made it!  LOL

Reading is a must and something you get better at simply by doing it.  I could not imagine learning to read however without the help of a teacher and some private lessons.  Make an investment in yourself and your playing with a good teacher and I promise you'll leap light years ahead of where you currently are in no time at all.

Reading is fun!

Enjoy...

Hannah

Exactly. And realistically, since you're "starting from scratch" as far as reading goes, you don't have to hire a "top-name" teacher. The drumset teacher at the local music shop should be more than capable of helping you out (at a very reasonable rate).

Sweet, thanks for the advice, guys.

I'll look into getting a teacher, it's just gonna be difficult with my schedule.  I just gotta make time for it though.  Sounds like the way to go  :D

4 Words dude "Sheet Music......is....evil...."  When it comes to drummers, sheet music is their weakness.  I may know about 5 years into playing piano, and can name every note and type of rthym... But hell it's just doesn't mix in with drumming.  It just adds into the coordination, you have part of your mind on time, part on what drum to hit, part on listening to the other instuments, and part on the music.  @$%# that's too much man, for any musician.  Especially when there's a conductor, I mean the conductors I've worked with always want your attention, but it is soooooo @$%# hard to do that when your trying to get read the right beats and watch what he's doing at the same time.  It just really really pestors me.  And the repeat signs in sheet music just adds on to the horror, they throw you off so easily.  All sheet music I've played with have that, the "Play this beat, ok now repeat the last measure, ok now do it again, and another 64 measures after that."  I've met with other drummers and went through couple of instructors that tell you to memorize the beat, read a couple measures, get it in your head then look up at the conductor every once in a while. Then they say to just make up your own beats (as long as it fits in with the style of music) every once in a while, then there's the 4 bar phrase thingy, bah so many methods, but even then it is hard to master it unless you actually memorize the whole song.  It's hard, especially with jazz bands, even though jazz bands usually don't have conductors, sometimes there is, and it's a pain when the conductor barks at your for your attention.  I mean, it's just... drummers don't read music, it's not their thing, they're a drummer, they make rthyms and keep time.   Not make melodies.

I pray that you're kidding.

That would make a good SNL skit but I hope the newer drummers understand you are kidding.   ;D

I'm not sure what part of your statement I disagree with the most so I think I'll just point out that drummers do make melodies. I NEVER sit behind a kit that I somehow don't think about being melodic and playing musical and being not just a drummer but a musician.  

If drums weren't meant to make melodies or be melodic why would there be different sizes for different tones and pitches???

I'd much rather be a drummer that makes melodies than a drummer that just plays with blazing speed or crazy chops.

Maybe I'm the odd one...but I'm betting there are many others here that would agree.

Hannah  

Pretty much my first thoughts too.

My opinion may not count for much, but I actually enjoy reading sheet music. I find sight reading to be a really fun challenge every once in a while. Also, I can say that my experience learning to read "normal" music (non-drum music) has defiantly improved my set reading, not to mention my versatility percussion-wise in school.

I look at the conductor out of the corner of my eye as I read the music. Eventually as I memorize parts, I can watch more, and rely less on the sheet music.

Repeat of what Hannah said.

Hey Thick, welcome aboard.  I agree with the lessons.  Even a few will pay huge dividends.

To answer your question directly, the notes in question are an eighth note and two 16th notes.  The eighth note gets exactly one-half of the beat and the two sixteenth notes comprise the last two 4ths of that one beat.  If you think of the spacing of the 8th notes in the first line, the two sixteenth notes just "replace" an eighth note getting two evenly spaced hits in place of the one eighth.  The resulting sound sort of resembles a gallop...

Unfortunately, the cookbook does not have a note chart to show you how notes get divided into their smaller components.  One book that I know does is the Elementary Drum Method Book by Roy Burns.  Page 3 has the chart.  

Please keep us posted!

Based on some previous posts.....I fear not.


Sticking to regular times might be difficult for you, but the actual time saved will be enormous. You would have had an answer to this in minutes, whereas it seems you've been digging around for information for quite a while.

Excellent advice there from Mister A, Mike (welcome to the Cafe, by the way). 

A teacher - even for a just a few lessons - will get you going in the right direction.  They look over your shoulder, correct things on the spot, explain things in a manner you can understand, answer your questions, and give encouragement and feedback.  All good stuff.

Also, Drum! Magazine has a monthly feature on reading music - you might look there for some help in the mean time.  But, by all means, try to get a teacher!

Heheh excuse me for that, I guess it's just me who hates sheet music, as for the melodies, I meant that drummers don't actually.... man it's hard to explain, They don't make the tunes of the song... But even that even doesn't explain it... bahh....  But, I've known drummers who don't like reading music.  Not many that I know read music.  But for me, music is just to restraining... I mean sure it gives the beat that fits right for the song, but I'm an independant type drummer.  I would love to use my beats instead of the written, but if anything I would use the music to get a beat off of.  But what I meant by sheet music, is the sheet music for Jazz band specifically,  Concert band I can work with, but jazz is my main killer when it comes to music.  I'm not sure if yall too me wrong for rthym sheet music or not, but that is totally different than what I'm talking about, I love rthym sheet music, they help me learn a lot when it comes to rudiments and rthyms, they play a large part in how I make up beats and good rthyms for songs.  I meant sheet music for songs, not rthyms, but if that's not what you were indicating, then I apologize, I was taking it from the drummers I've known personally. 


Yall really did kill me with this, I can still feel the pain X.X

Sorry, heh

Got too offensive there.

It's probably not so great to give advice based on some personal prejudices.
Reading music is a handy skill. there is nothing about it that cramps your creativity. I use drum music to help me learn songs quickly. It helps me practice other drummers playing/ideas, and we use it all the time to communicate on The Cafe.


Any chance of spelling rhythm correctly and using some paragraphs in your posts?  ;)
They are a bit hard to read.

Amen. Ignorance tends to provide a pretty shaky foundation for opinions.

... or when there is a lack of real experience or knowledge.

When we have opinions based on limited experience or knowledge, we look foolish. It's one thing to have an opinion based on one experience, it's also a completely other thing when someone makes grand/broad absolute type comments or statements when they have very little experience or real knowledge of the subject matter. FYI ... if you are a teenager or have only been playing a few years ... it's wisdom to not make broad, absolute statements. There's a very strong chance that your assessment or opinion is completely incorrect.

If you absolutely must make a statement or give your opinion, and you have little experience or knowledge about the topic, it might be wise to qualify it first ... admitting up front that your opinion is based on limited knowledge. This will keep the respect level high on your behalf and will probably keep you from getting your wrist slapped in public.  8)

Glad we got all of this cleared up!  ;D

This is only my opinion but it may put things in perspective.  If you can speak and hear but not read or write you are considered illiterate in today’s world and are at a distinct disadvantage when compared with people who are able to read and write.  Music is a language and sheet music is the way we read and write that language.  If you are not able to read music well you are as disadvantaged in the music world as the person who is unable to read or write the written word is in society.  I am not great at sight reading and I certainly will never write a musical masterpiece but I can read well enough for the times it is needed. 

Don't ignore sheet music. It taught you many styles of the drummer craft. If you can read music it tells other musicians you've been through many types of training. People that just bangs away on a set is one thing. People who can show that they've been down that road it tells them another thing. I've never been sorry for the experiences I've had. But I have seen people tell they didn't pay attention to their teachers. It has a way of working against you, and sometimes it shows.   ::) 

Here comes my two cents:

It all depends on what your musical goals are.

But, no matter What your musical goals are, everyone should at least learn basic reading.

Will it take lots of time and effort to build the skill to read Any piece Anytime in Realtime?
Depends on the individual, but - probably.

Will it take lots of time to build basic reading skills?   No way.   

Getting basic reading down is very straightforward, and every percussionist should at least get that far.  Again, the size of the effort after that can depend on your specific musical goals.

I know how to read music, it's just that it isn't my most favorite thing when it comes to drumming.

  Yeah, you might see me speak without thinking sometimes, so just you know, ignore me when I do that eheh ^^'.  I'm just your typical teenager... blahhhh, though I do respect other drummers, and I do learn a lot from them.  They are the teachers of drumming.  I do gain lots of info. from drummercafe, and I love it always and hope to always learn from it.  Even if I do make a stupid comment, I learn from the mistake when yall correct me for it, so in a way, I guess I'm thankful.

But again, I don't hate sheet music in all shapes and forms, it's just that when it comes to drumming, it really grinds my gears.  Especially when you've got a conductor clawing your back about not playing specific things, and if not everything.  For I'm told that you don't have to play everything on sheet and have some sort of relaxation and independance. 

Sheet music does help me, even if I feel like shooting it when it comes to sheet music for songs I have to admit it.

One of the greatest lessons we can learn (I'm still working on it) is that it's not always about you!

When challenged to play something differently we can be defensive, assume people are out to get us, and assert that "our way" is the "right way". Or, we can take it as an opportunity to learn something new and expand our playing vocabulary by learning to play what is asked for. Assuming the goal is to be a great drummer who people want to hire, which of these helps you get there?


Another approach to "a conductor clawing your back" is to put the end result out of your mind and concentrate on the process of producing the result. It can be quite liberating to stop worrying about whether or not the part is right in the overall scheme of things and relax and focus everything you can muster on playing the part correctly and with conviction. Again, ask which one serves your goals in the long run?

I'm currently working with a band who consider themselves "amateurs" and me a "professional" because of my experience and training. However, we came to a point after a few rehearsals where they were worried that if they told a "professional drummer" what to play, that I (thinking they're "just" amateurs) would tell them to stuff it. My response was that as a "professional" I consider it my job to make the song sound good and to be open to any possibilities that might make that happen. THEY wrote the songs, they know how they want them to sound. I'll certainly put my opinion out there if I think it doesn't work, but only after trying the idea. The result? The band is getting along great, the songs sound better (they have some  cool ideas for drum arrangements) and I'm being pushed outside of my comfort zone to play grooves and fills that I wouldn't have thought of off the top of my head.

It's the same with reading written charts. They aren't your enemy, they're a guide - a set of ideas that work in the ears of the composer. Even if we are going to concern ourselves with the overall result, rather than blindly asserting our "rightness" and trundling out the same ideas every time we play, we have the opportunity to open up our ears and try to hear what it is the composer and conductor hear. We can try and understand and gauge the musical importance of what they're asking us to play. Again, assuming the goal is to be a great drummer and have a wide vocabulary of ideas to be able to draw from in any situation, what attitude serves us best? The more of these ideas that we try and absorb, and the more we develop the skills to play them (including reading) the more our opinions will have the weight of experience behind them when we do speak up and say, "Uh-uh, like this." 

 

Ninja, you have gotten some very good advise here and I hope you are able to learn from it. 

I'm reminded of a management course I took years ago that was called "Don't be a victim".  It taught that people fall into one of two groups.  You are either a "victim" or "user".  A victim says to himself "How can I get through this?" whereas a user says "How can I use this for my benefit?".

Instead of worrying about how to please your music director why not take a different mentality and ask yourself how you can use his knowledge to help you become a better musician?

Lol I'm not a rapist, but still, yeah I really do try not to be selfish, it's in my family blood to think about yourself so much, but I really try not to.

 As for the music, I do use the the music as a guide, is just that, when I'm trying to work on keeping time and getting the feel of rhythm (there I spelled it right  :P) it annoys me how the conductor will stop everything just to point me out about that, even though I'm trying to break it down.  Then he does it again if I do it again.  And I'm pretty shy so I'm not much of the type that defends himself out in the open.  But I do follow the music, there is another fellow drummer of mine that plays along with me in a local jazz band ensemble that just takes the whole beat of the song and plays it in a whole different beat, but in the same relative style of music as well... so ehhhh.

But thanks for the advise, I do take it in well, and again I do take in a lot of thinks here at drummer cafe, it is where most of what I learn comes from.  It's just sometimes I get carried away when I'm trying to chip in my opinion on things, and include everyone and me instead of just me. 

I get so omniscent sometimes and I feel real bad when it affects people..... ><

thanks,

Ninja_Drummer

Why do you want to defend yourself if a conductor tells you your feel isn't right, or there are problems with timekeeping?
Firstly you say you are working on it, that's good, but secondly if you are in an ensemble with a conductor it's usually their job to get the best out of each player.
The conductor obviously thinks you can do better.
It's a pain, but it's a great motivator to improve.
I wouldn't think to defend myself, but work harder if I were in your shoes.

I've been reading music since I was 4 years old, so it's difficult for me to imagine playing anything worthwhile without being able to read music. That's whether or not there's music in front of you. When I play I "see" music in my head. I tend to notate as I go along.

Really, if you can't read music, you've missed out on these awesome perqs:

- Able to know meter when you hear it. Any meter, including changes.

- Quickly compile any drum part you hear. It's like the entire mystery is resolved. The more advanced your reading/writing skills, the less mystified you are by any drum part. You almost never have to go a message board like this and ask, "How does X drummer play Y part." Even if you are not currently capable of performing said drum part, you will at least be able to write it out and understand what is being played. That's pretty much my entire experience with any Vinnie Colaiuta chart

- Able to be more creative. There. I said it. If you can read/write music, you become more intimately aware of context of the music. If you can see in notation how the parts fit together, you will be less likely to get locked into rhythmic jail. Where there was once a finite possibility, you will see infinite possibility.

- Always know where "1" is. I honestly don't know how drummers exist in the professional world without this. I guess they just make a million mistakes until it becomes intuitive, but it comes 20 years earlier if you can read/write, without first damaging your reputation with important people.

- Be exposed to many advanced concepts that are simply not available to listening to music as it becomes available to your corner of the universe. Things like metric modulation, playing over the bar, halftime/double-time -- these are no longer things you have to first hear and mimic. You can actually practice and apply these.

I've been a teacher for a good long while, and I've never had a student that stuck with it and really got into the meat of reading and writing that DIDN'T have some kind of existential experience. It's like they hit a certain point and their brains open up and all of a sudden music is something entirely more fascinating than three chords and a lot of bashing. They start hearing MORE in the music they listen to and crave to be exposed to all kinds of new things.

There's a story one of my old sociology professors tells of an archaeological dig in Europe. The diggers found a dinner-table-sized pyramid made of stone. It was once very sharp at the tip. They could not for the life of them figure out what it was for, but felt bold enough to make broad assumptions, they surmised it was possibly:

- A sharpening tool
- The world's first melon opener
- An iconoclastic place of worship

It wasn't until the dig was moved about 50 meters elsewhere that they were able to conclude it was actually just the tip of an unusually large minuet or watchtower of some kind.

Summation: Sometimes you have to dig deep and in more than once place to get the right perspective.

I hereby nominate Gadabout's post for "the post of the month!"

I like it, too!!

It's rubbish. 
 







;D
Only 5 weeks away from entering the running for post of the year.  :o

Boy, isn't that the truth. I know, because I've had to do lots of digging. Many times I didn't find the answer until years later. Sometimes the answer was right in front of me, but I was too blind to see it.    :o   Well said.....   ;)

Thanks everyone, including Chrisso, who's like my anchor. And by that I mean he keeps bringing me down.  ;D

Really really just kidding C-Dub. You know you're my brutha from anothu mutha (land).

When you only have time to make one post a week, you try to make the most of it!

Wow, great posts Gaddabout.

I already had becoming fluent in reading music as one of my goals for 2008, but this really reminds me how much all the work developing this skill will be worth it in the end.

Right on Gaddy.  I'm not as advanced as you, but I can relate in a lot of ways.  I see the notes in my head.  Of course, I see donuts too...   ::)

Wow!

This is done....

Thanks Gaddy!!!

Hannah

My first post!

Anyway...

I think reading is so critical. For me, it provides a "spatial sense" to technically understand what I'm playing. To think of note values on paper is the cornerstone of having good time, IMHO. Understanding how to read and count a phrase for instance means that my brain is quantifying time-- so there's no "guess work" about how to be on time when executing a fill, etc.

I also think that to really take your metric or polyrhythmic comprehension to the more advanced levels you really have to be a proficient reader as well. I can't imagine someone like Virgil Donati or Marco Minnemann doing what they do without understanding what they do on paper. Not to mention how much reading opens up limitless doors for education in different styles...

Yes, that was a very well explained post, it really does define a true TRUE drummer, if not a musician in general.  It's like all of my music teachers of all sorts from the past all putting their musical life lessons into one post. heheh ^^.  But it does really give motivation for me to really reach out more.

I loved the little metaphor about the digging, quite interesting if you put it into symbolic form.

And now that I think about it, from all the well known professional drummers I know, and from the people I know that talk about them all the time, are quite different from each other ironically.  There are those who specialize in time, others and great rhythms, others with reading music, and those who have great style.  And I guess it's just what makes them so great in the drummer world, their ability to do so well in a certain area of drumming.  As if I didn't know that already, but I really do understand the deep depths of that now. 

But, even then of course, all drummers should have some experience in all areas of musical requirements.  That's pretty obvious right there. Just like Gaddabout stated.

And I do try to improve, little by little in every area. 

And I'm still pretty young in my drummer years.  So I've got a ways to go before I can start to realize which area I'm fixing to really get into.  And lots to learn from people and my mistakes.

But enough about me, even I'm starting to get annoyed by myself. 

Reading music does give lots of information and knowledge to musicians around the world.  It has since the early times of it's birth.  It allows musicians today to play what was famed back then.  Sort of I guess, how the tradition of the Bible and God have been passed down since back when.  Kinda like a way to share one's idea to other musicians, and a guide for those having trouble.

Who are your favorites in each of those areas?

Wow, that's pretty random... I'd have to say for style, there's Neil Peart, for time, Chad Smith, for rhythm, The Reverend (drummer for Avenged Sevenfold), as for music, I don't really know of any famous music readers in drumming...

Hey Ninja...I've been following along on this thread and even chimmed in a couple of times myself.  I have a couple of questions...Since I'm only 17 there is still so much for me to learn as well and I found out a long time ago there's nothing wrong with asking as long as it's done with respect.

1. How old are you?

2. Do you study privately?

If these questions have already been addressed I apologize for being redundant.

Thanks,

Hannah

Vinnie Colaiuta!

He's known as an uncanny sight reader.

I think that's what allowed him to navigate through Zappa's stuff with such panache... especially on Joe's Garage!

I think the point is, every drummer is required to be as good as they can be at time. Most drummers pride themselves on great rhythm and style. You can't pick any famous drummers and compartmentalize them into these random categories.

-----------------------------

I think this thread has gone off track a little.
The original poster was spending a lot of time trying to comprehend some basic drum patterns.
The general advice was given; get some basic drum lessons, it'll save you a lot of time.
Following on from that, most of us agreed that with some basic reading skills under your belt, a lot of previously incomprehensible drum figures would become clearer. Being able to understand note values and written drum parts enables drummers to quickly recognise common groupings, and therefore break down some quite complicated rhythmic concepts into easier to understand phrases.
It's all about finding ways to make learning quicker and easier.

Now I studied notation from the age of 11 to 20 years old.
As luck would have it, I was never asked to read a note of drum notation as a professional from 1979 to 1987.
That doesn't mean I didn't use my reading skills.
As I mentioned earlier, I was able to listen to drum parts and picture them as notation, helping me to understand them more quickly. On recording sessions I wrote my own very simple drum parts, enabling me to follow drum parts and song arrangements, instead of having to remember them.
This means you can concentrate purely on the playing. Also that you can play and record a song you've never heard before perfectly after only a couple of run throughs.
You don't have to read to be a good drummer.
My advice is to give it a go though.
It's really not that hard.
Once learnt, never forgotten. It's almost a life skill (for a musician).
You'll be surprised how helpful it is, how many the doors it opens up, and how much it can positively help your playing.

Hey Hannah...

Cool stuff on your website! You're really getting out there!

I just moved to the Chicago area... I'll try to catch one of your shows at some point :)

My best friend's band Polydream is playing at The Republic Ballroom on December 5th. I can't wait to explore more of this area... and hopefully be playing out soon myself!

Take care...

why not go visit him off line and ask for his help?  if you approach him in a gentle and open way then perhaps he will treat you differently during class... let him know you are trying...

Just to make sure, I don't want to glorify reading/writing music as the nadir of drumming.

There's a legendary story about Buddy Rich. Don't remember who he was playing with, but I seem to recall it was a famous singer, a woman. She asked Buddy Rich to sit in and threw a chart his way. After the show someone asked her what she thought of the famous drummer. She said something to affect of, "He didn't play a note on the page but he sure can swing."

To the best of my knowledge, Buddy never read music. There were a lot of drummers like that from his era. They just grew up in that genre and knew it well. While I think the demands have changed tremendously on drummers -- multiple styles, many different artists, lots of songs and drum tracks that require some knowledge of reading/writing -- you're still going to come across a successful drummer who can't read music. Talent always trumps technique. That's the way it should be, IMO. I have no problem with that.

So if you're still guessing what gets you employed, it isn't reading music. It's being a great player and a professional person. Learning the written notation of music just keeps all the doors opened -- in terms of what you can learn and how many people you can play with. You won't have to turn down gigs (in shame, no less) because you limited yourself when you were younger. And if you think you're the next Buddy, keep in mind he was a "name" drummer at age 6, so don't dwell on your own greatness too long.

To the specific question, I really like the comments about spacial relationships, because that's what reading music is all about. That's also what good time is about. A steady stream of 32nd notes is easy to read, assuming the notes are for batterie close enough together I can pull them off. ;) You're not really getting into a reading challenge until you've seen triplets nested inside duplets in 12/8. The challenge in something like that isn't in playing the notes themselves. Even at a moderate tempo, any one with healthy limbs is physically capable of playing them. The challenge is knowing the space between the notes. If you don't know it before you see it, your goose is already cooked. You have to instinctively know how those notes are spaced before your eyes cross that passage. If you really want to fry your brain, start dropping notes from those triplets and adding dots and ties. hehe

Yeah, the space between the notes. That's what drumming is all about anyway. I've made this analogy before, but I like it, so I'll repeat it. A newspaper page designer starts the day with a blank page. Or, really, several blank pages. Bad designers think their agenda is to eliminate white space, to fill it up. Good designers look at the white space and realize the beauty of it, and work their pages so the white space becomes the featured part of the design, not the ink that mucks it up.

Wait ... what was the question again? hehe Sorry. I've really gone off the path here and I'm lost. Don't know how to find my way back to the trail so I'm sending up a flare and hoping someone can rescue me. Time for bed!

Wow.

Ninja, you have much to learn. This may be a time to read more, and post less, because your opinions really seem to have been formed in a vacuum.

My advice is to go to drummerworld.com, and start clicking on links to drummers you're not familiar with. There will be a fair number of them, I daresay.

God, Hannah is so well spoken. I really forget she is only 17 at times, special kid.

Good post Gaddy (where you been?  Learning all those V.C. chops at H.O.D.com ?  ;D)

Having gobs of talent where you can sneak by without reading is really rare.  Learning to read and taking lessons will make it much easier in the long run like Chrisso suggested and will help you understand what your idols are doing over at drummer world.

No big deal- I know plenty of guys that can't read and honestly I rarely play anything more "complicated" than they do; but I used to be a snob towards non readers.  Now I just don't care.   One can be illiterate and still be my friend  ;D

Nadir? Did you mean "zenith"?  ???  ;)

Hey Johnny,

Welcome to Chi-town!!!  lol

Make sure to look us up and say hi sometime real soon.

Thanks for the compliment....

Hannah

Thank you Felix.  My Dad's a freak!!  LOL....not really, he just thinks it's important to spell correctly, use proper grammer and communication skills.  I"M  REALLY CHALLENGED AT ALL OF IT!! lol

I'm guessing Neil Peart, Chad Smith, and the Rev all read.

LOL! Indeed. I was looking at that word for a few minutes before posting thinking something wasn't right. A good night's sleep and I can see now my sleepy brain was thinking in antonyms.

Urban legend recalls that Neil Peart could not read until he studied with Freddy Gruber back in the 90's IIRC?  *He made millions off the 3 stroke ruff boys and girls* ;D

I would say, like his style or not- Neil Peart has a great mind and is a fantastic talent. 

Ninja,
The bottom line here.
Some forum members who are older and been through the personal ups and downs of the business are trying to help you here, not trying to put you down.
In my opinion, reading is not a law.
But like there is no law to eat vegetables, most sensible people say it's a good thing to do.
As I said, it isn't hard and it will add a lot to both your playing and your employability.
I studied at music college for four years.
I never got invited to join any bands because I could read or because I had a paper qualification. That doesn't mean the skill of reading didn't come in very handy many, many times in my career.
There are a lot of gigs that do require reading; pit orchestra (Broadway etc), talk show band (Late Night, SNL etc), many recording sessions, especially film score work.
Do you know at 15 years old you'll never want to follow one of those avenues of work?
I've done the loud rock band thing, and plenty of recording, but right now if anyone offered me the job on Late Night With letterman, or Saturday Night Live, I'd saw off my left leg if they asked me to.  ;D
Times change, and you'll change with it.
It's exciting to be 15, with lot's of amazing adventures ahead of you.
But this is the time to soak up knowledge like a sponge.
As all the top businessmen and intellectuals in the land agree.....knowledge is power.
The power to work how and when you want, for fun or for money.
The majority of young drummers like you (early teens in 2007) will never be able to work whenever they want (either for fun or money). That's the tough nature of the arts. Most will give up at some point over the next few years.
The more tools you have in your kit bag, the less likely you'll be to fall by the wayside.

Whether you learn to read well or not - and no, it's not a necessity - you seem to embrace and defend ignorance. I guess that's your right to do so. But when you then choose to spout strong opinions that are clearly based on very little knowledge, you're gonna rub some people the wrong way.

You're content not to know much. Fair enough. But it doesn't give you the right to say much, does it? Not if you want to be taken seriously, that is.

This may seem harsh, I know. But man, I'd have given my left (pick an organ or appendage) to have a resource like this when I was your age. You're surrounded by folks who have played drums - many of them professionally - for longer than you've been on the planet. There are folks here playing with world famous artists. Folks with incredible educations and experience. You have such an opportunity to LEARN, and instead you're wasting it, defending your limited knowledge as a carefully chosen lifestyle preference on your part.

Sorry, but you're too freaking young to be shutting out so much information. Welcome it, drink it in, and let it transform you.

Or not.

It's your call.

Wow.  I've been following this thread but staying out of the dialogue. But as I read today's posts I was hit with a sudden sense of incredible awe:  I am reading posts by so many experienced drummers willing to share their thoughts!  Crimony, two of the contributers to this thread have toured with some of my musical idols!!!!!!!  And like Keith, I could not have even imagined this concept when I started drumming as a kid 30 years ago.  We're all receiving absolutely priceless information IMHO and it's easy to take that for granted.  I just want to offer up a hearty thanks to all who contribute here.  I can't begin to describe what this means to me. 

Carry on! 

Lol, I couldn't help but laugh at that Acrolite, it reminds me of how I find my sister and my husband fighting in front of me like a common comedy series. 

Anyway, yes, yes I am defensive, but not openly in the world like I said, kinda wwhiii... shy... It's at places like this that I really crack a shell.

Yeah I know, you're all gonna say I should go out and socialize and not be afraid... I know, I know.

But I'll grow out of that habit of being defensive when I hit my college years, it's the common nature of teens turning into adults.  I'll start to learn and ashame myself for the stupidest things I've said and done in the future.

But the teen years is the one time here you can be free and have fun and act like your boss.

I'm sure all you pros out there remember those days...(and flashback to early 1960s-1980s teen years).

I'm sure that in the future I will start to be in your shoes and want to fufill your dreams of playing for this and that, but I'm I'll be sure I'll be sure to try and learn at least a little bit of everything need for drumming.  Thouh again, I'll still have my areas that I'd wish to profess in I know that part.  But that will be told by what I favor in the future of my exploration in drummer knowledge.

And I hope I don't give up on drumming like so many I've know that have done it hitting or leaving their teen years.  I don't really like to give up on something I've come so far in. Especially if I've learned so much of it just to drop it and let it  collect dust.

Man I hope I'm not the only one taking in all this info. here.  I'm getting crucified (in a good way) over here and I hope I'm not the only one getting something from my mistakes.

OFF THE ARGUEMENT QUEST.:

Do any of you know of any great linear beat books DVDs or both that I can get my hands on?

I think you missed the point of the post. I didn't want to discount established drummers who've already made their name without knowing how to read music. What those drummers have done is incredible. But I think even most of those drummers would say they were foolish not to learn how to read music. I was saying it can (and has) been done, usually because they had no access to a formal music education. I was NOT saying it should be done.

If you have access to learn how to read music (such as a school program) and you take it for granted, that's an attitude problem that will plague you in any music pursuit (and in more ways than just playing music).

I remember.....
At 15 I was picked for the National Youth Orchestra of Wales.
Serious reading skills required.
At 16 I left school and attended music college full time, hundreds of miles away from home.
We were thrown in at the deep end with more orchestral work, plus big band and small ensemble work. This was the days of fusion and that's what everyone wanted to play.
I met Gary Husband (younger than me) and thought...... jeez, I'm never going to get work as a drummer with guys like this competing for the same gigs.
At 17 I was gigging with the National Youth Jazz Orchestra (percussion) and I spent 8 weeks over the summer entertaining US troops in southern Spain (in a cover band).
I was the boss of no one.
I was just hoping to keep up with the talented and ambitious kids around me.
It was fun, but I've no doubt most of what I have now, whether that be ability or relative success, is as a direct result of the efforts I put in between 13 and 19 years old.

As you might have noticed, Hannah Ford is 17, is already touring, doing clinics and endorsing professional drum products.

I think the bottom line is--

Just learn to read music.

Learning to read drum set music is, in my experience with learning piano as a second instrument, probably the easiest reading you can learn. Of course, that doesn't always make drum notation the easiest to play, but if you want easy, you picked the wrong instrument to try and gain any mastery over!

BTW, the standard for linear drumming/groove books is, IMHO, David Garibaldi's "Future Sounds." It's a classic, and his work with the band Tower of Power is legendary. His "Tower of Groove" videos are worth checking out as well... a bit dated now in terms of production, but the playing is world class. I've found with my drummer friends who weren't previously familiar with his concepts that this opens up their playing like few other things... and in a very practical way as well.

I think that growing and improving is an ongoing process that has little to do with age.

You have a player such as Virgil Donati who is in his 40s and is still practicing (according to him) 4-5 hours a day, schedule permitting. I remember reading in MD that when Dave Weckl was in his 20s and living in NYC, he was practicing up to 8 hours a day.

I just don't think that anyone should have the belief that the teen years are the most critical stage of development... in fact, many of the top players seem to go from good to great when they hit their adult years. You just have a different kind of commitment and focus to practice when you're out in the "real world" of trying to make this a career.

I think you misunderstood me.
I actually never said anything about stopping growing.
I was highlighting how important the formative years are, especially if you want to be more than an average player. I would be very surprised if Donati goofed around in his teenage years, had fun and thought to himself he could catch up once he was 20.
I remember my teenage years very well.
I did goof around too much.
Some of the young drummers around me spent 6 to 8 hours a day practising.
When they weren't practising they were either playing in a band or ensemble, or listening to other drummers playing (on record for the most part).
The point about age is that it's never too soon to start getting serious.
Some players have burnt out by the time they are in their 20's.....no doubt.
Some players have peaked much later in life too, but they are very much an exception as far as I'm concerned.
Making a living out of drumming requires a level of commitment in the teenage years I believe, and most young players are living up to that commitment, knowing full well how tough the business is these days.

At least in a "First World" point of view, you'll never have more time in your life to lay the foundation. The great ones didn't think of drumming as imposing on their free time. They practiced endlessly and never thought of it in terms of hours put in because it was an obsession. I've met very, very few pro drummers who didn't obsess over drumming every free moment of their teenage years.

But, hey, not everyone's meant to be a professional drummer. If that's not your goal, by all means, enjoy your hobby and don't sweat the time you don't put in.

God I couldn't Imagine putting in 8 hours a day of practice. There's too many distractions, and even with warming up, stretches, small rests and warming down 3 hours seems to be about the best for me, otherwise the following day isn't as productive as i'm still recovering from the previous.

Sadly, it requires that you read music.

Da-Boom!   ;D

It's all a matter of conditioning.  ;D

That said, I would actually say that Future Sounds is a GREAT book for learning to read!

Lol is that a sort of mockery to me? I don't despise all sorts of reading, just songs.  Rhythm music is awsome, couldn't live without it. 

As for the book source, thanks for that, I'll look it up and look for a couple of little sneak peaks into to it to see what it's like before I have the intent of purchase.

As for the teenage development, I would think that it depends on what type of development you would be speaking of that makes that statement true.  Psychologist as well as neural brain scientist theorize and I guess state it as a fact that individuals during teenage years usually is the one time to "mature" or learn about the morals of life, whether it be from a wise older adult or by personal experience.  And I guess in some cases such as mine this could be fit in.  Though it is true that you never stop learning until you die.  Maybe even still learn up in Heavon, from asking those questions you've been wondering about your whole life like who killed the dinosaurs or are aliens real... But in any case, knowledge never stops, you learn something everyday, and it's not just one little thing, it's just like how many times you blink in a single day.  The amount of knowledge you gain in a day is just massive. 

Though that still doesn't count in for adults still wanting to act like a child... Some people just don't want to give up their childhood behaviors.

And I do try and spend at least 30 min everyday to try and squeeze in some drumming. Though my parents always nag at me and keep telling me to limit it and think about school first.  Which is very true in a lot of ways.  It's just... like Chris Whitten said, it's al about committment.

I don't want to give up drumming, I've come so far into it, even if it's just a couple of years...  It'd be a waste of a part of my life that I could've used for something worthwhile. 

But it saddens me in a way how friends of mine would give up drumming or any other musical talent because they are too busy with something else... Though I don't blame them...

That clears it up for me, thanks.

My apologies if you took offense.

I think it's about time to end this thread, if you don't mind me saying.

A part of growing up is learning how to set priorities and budget your time.  At this stage of your life, school should be very high on your list of priorities.  If you are truly committed to drumming you will find time after schoolwork is completed for the drums.  Demonstrate to your parents that you can excel at your schoolwork AND play the drums. 

ps. did you read my latest signature line?

Thanks for that... though... I'm not doin oo so hot in school right now... but not really bad either... but that's all cuz I'm real slack which I'm trying to clear up

And that sig. is pretty hilarious, you really do make some good laughs man I love it.. XD


Heheheh no no problem... I actually found it kinda funny.



yeah I agree this thread is starting to go off and mostly cause of me SORRY >< It's just that I was inspired by all the opinions on here, and that means I've taken in a good moral here.

With all due respect - might I suggest spend a little less time here and spend a little more time focused on school work? 

 ;D

Great tag - great way to end it!!

Or, rather, just make sure your homework is done before hanging out at DC!

The balance between school work, family, friends and drumming (or what ever your passion is) can be hard to find.  

I can tell you from experience that trying to balance my life is probably the biggest challenge I face.

Since I was old enough to understand english I've heard my Dad say "work at keeping your priorities right."  God first, family second and work at whatever you love and would like to succeed at with ever fiber left in your body.

I travel all around the country with my band and with my Peace Love & Drums show.  The one question I get asked most by both parents and kids alike is..."How do you find time to practice, perform and get school work done?"  Not to mention fun time.

From a time management stand point nothing can take presidence over my school work.  I understand that's just the way it is.  I'm an honors student and will work however hard I need to so that it stays that way. I LOVE DRUMMING TO MUCH TO LET IT BE A REASON TO FAIL AT SCHOOL.

If you sit down and add up all the hours in a week, then day by day start going through the week and determining the things (like school or work) that you must do every day and back those hours out you'll begin to see you have more time than you may think to do things that are important to you.  I go to school about 7 hours a day and sleep about 7 or so hours a day.  That leaves 10 hours of free time to manage.  10 hours!!  Let's say I totally blow 2 or 3 hours fooling around on the phone, with friends or whatever...that still leaves 7 hours.  If I practice 2-3 hours that still leaves another 4 hours for me or family or whatever I decide I need to spend it on.  You sit down and do the math on your personal time with 24 hours a day and I think, like I was, you'll be surprised how much time you have.

Reading a book, reading music, practicing drums or anything else "worthwhile" takes time and dedication to improve.  However you spend those extra 10 hours a day is what you will become good at.  Want to learn to read?  Spend the time.  Want to improve your independence?  Spend the time.  Want to become a couch potato?  Spend the time.

I did read earlier here someone said it's ok if you just want to drum for fun and have no desire to become a pro.  For me, it's all I've ever wanted to do...be a professional musician/drummer, so naturally my mindset needs to be a bit more intense.

Ninja I'm not sure what your goals with drumming are and whatever they are does not make you right or wrong.  They are your goals and if you're happy with them, congrats.

IMHO,reading music is important.  As a musician in an ensemble, following the direction set forth by a conductor is your job.  Between the notation on paper and the leadership of the conductor an ensemble comes together to make beautiful music.  How many hundreds of years has it been done that way?  It's kind of hard to make an "intelligent" argument otherwise.

I think it's great that you've opened up to everyone here at the DC and you've taken some very critical responses to your thread quite well. Although I don't any of the professionals here have swayed your thinking I applaude your ability to take constructive criticism with regards to your views on reading.

Just remember...your mind is like a parachute.  If it's not open....well, I think you know what happens.

Good Luck,

Hannah

I'll make my last comment by noting I lost scholarship opportunities because I flunked out of high school because I spent 5 years obsessing over drums. I remember spending almost every hour of junior English ditching so I could go work out ideas in my head from the morning in one of the school practice rooms. I was probably the only kid who ever ditched and never left campus.

Definitely, school work comes first.

You, sir, are biased. ;)

If anyone needs me, I'll be over here eating hot dogs and listening to this rehearsal CD.

Totally awesome, Hannah! Your attitude and wisdom is better than a lot of us "dudes" here...

I'm getting a myspace soon with some video of my playing on it... hope you'll check it out when it's up and let me know what you think!

Blessings :)

Hey Johnny,

Thank you for the compliment.  Honestly I'm always a little uncomfortable when someone asks me for an opinion of their playing because I feel like I still have so much to learn myself.  LOL

I'll look forward to seeing that video.

Hannah

Hey hook me up with a pm when u get it so I can see em too (if you don't mind :)).  

Yeah, I tried the schedule thing... heheh didn't work, though I try to subdivide my time everyday little by little, so as to eliminate my habit of being lazy.

But for the most part... At least drumming took place of my habit of being a couch potatoe and play games and TV all day.

Anyway, yeah I've taken criticism a lot of times throughout my life.  Mostly since I draw and I post my art on the internet and taking any criticism to improve my work, which helped a lot and I get better with all the info. I get from people, from people who don't know a thing about art to the professional artists.  And I'm doing the same on here.  And it does help.

Knowledge never comes from yourself, it isn't like a plant whom feeds itself through the sun and the soil.  It must be obtained through another, and it is ever so hungry.

Whether it comes from paper, a person, tv, or anything, it comes from another person who presents to others in order to pass down information they knew so as to allow the other person to use that information to discover another, and past that down to the next, and etc.  

Kinda like how you would pass down family secrets.


Hey, don't be shy, no one knows right from wrong unless they are told by somone more mature.

And even if you don't know much, it doesn't mean your opinion doesn't count.  Just tell em from what you know already, and from your own feeling. 

Every penny and nickel is worth every cent.  Even if it takes a million to get to your goal.

I will! I'm also gonna post in the see/hear you play thread.


You should really check out Mike Mangini's "Rhythm Knowledge" books. There are two-- Volumes 1 and 2 to be exact.

Really groundbreaking stuff in there... the first book is all about how to practice, manage your time, etc. It also covers the basics of reading...

It would be the perfect book for you right now!

It's all good :)

Sorry if I put you on the spot... just trying to do a bit of networking in Chi-town! But that's great that you're humble. I'll just add you when it's up and you can just say hey or whatever's cool with you!