DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

My DI gave me a copy of this essay by Brad Houser in Bass Player magazine. I wonder if Chrisso knows this guy, as he plays w/ Edie Brickell, among other bands.  I thought it was a really great piece (altho I did "clean it up" a bit :)).


robyn


~~~~~~~~~
Resist The Urge

Having played bass for a long time, I have noticed some destructive tendencies among bassists and drummers:  Gratuitous Fill Playing. That phrase alone pretty much sums up the entire matter, but let's dive a little deeper into it.
 
 A "fill" is just that:  filler, not substance. It seems that most of us bassists and drummers throw in more fills than necessary. This tendency becomes especially acute during funk grooves, althought a lot of us over-fill in any style.  Have you noticed that we tend to put in a fill every fourth bar, or every 16 beats?  Almost all of us do it. But in a lot of African music, and in classic James Brown, the bass relentlessly repeats the same figure over and over.  While some of you might think this is boring (I did at first), what actually happens is that a trance--an energy field--begins to build, which can and will produce an amazing feeling in the audience/dancers/musicians.  There is nothing quite like it.  In these situations, Gratuitous Fill Playing will destroy the trance and make you or me sound like Jackass No. 1.  It will also piss off the dancers, and the bandleader will start cursing at you.

 As an instant remedy, I propose the quick fix of No Fills 16.  Resist the evil temptation to put in that fill every 16 beats.  Drummers, please avoid the dreaded groove-stopper fill and the obligatory cymbal crash on the next downbeat.  It's as if I were walking down the street, and the...RED LIGHT!  STOP!  Then I need to wait for the fill to finish before I get to start walking again.

 Bassists do this just as often, and it is equally egregious. To illustrate, here is a little story:  A few months ago, I was doing a jazz-funk gig.  Big stage, huge low end.  I noticed Fills 16 happening, as they usually do, especially coming from me and the drummer--although the whole band was in on it, resulting in kind of like a bunch of pathetic little ejaculations, draining away the groove's vitality.  I caught myself (No Fills 16, bitch!) and forced myself to stick to my bass line.  Lo and behold, the band solidified, becoming more focused and coherent, as did the dancefloor.  Wow! What a difference!  I have also noticed that if I stick closer to my bass line and remember No Fills 16, when it comes time for a (gasp) bass solo, I have more energy and ideas available--and my fellow musicians seem to lend more support.  Strange, but it works.

 Before you play a fill, ask yourself:  Is it necessary?  Is it contributing to forward motion, or is it a groove-killer?  Wait...don't fill...wait...wait...build...breathe... wait...keep those shoulders down and relaxed...wait...okay, now drive the band into the next section with a powerful melodic idea.

 Have fun stripping away all the extraneous BS.  Your fellow musicians and audience members will think you are a genius, and Miles Davis will be smiling as bright as the sun.

Some good advice ... and definitely a topic that needs to be discussed.

I think drummers play a lot of fills simply because they aren't listening. Musicians in general, nowadays, don't listen to one another or the overall ensemble sound.

I'm sorry, did you say something?  :)

Seriously - that was a great essay.  My mind immediately jumped to the incredibly tasteful drumming of Karen Carpenter, who IMHO, was one of the best when it came to placing just the right fill at just the right moment. . .  and only where necessary.

I've met him a couple of times - played with him once of course.  ;D

His suggestion to try not filling every 16 bars is worth having a look at.
I've done it for fun (practice) and professionally and it is harder than you think.
Not too hard on a funk jam, but when you are playing a song it's almost compulsive to mark every section. Automatic.
Sometimes when I'm recording I notice my hi-hat opening every 8 bars or so starts to bug me. The music might not demand it, but I still can't stop myself from doing it. I don't even know I'm doing it until I hear the playback.

Interesting article.

This is the mark of someone who's spent a lot of time listening to studio drummers or playing in the studio in the 70s and 80s. I almost say don't fight it because I've already given up!

I believe Ringo said in a MD article that he never liked to play fills doing a shuffle - the reason being that it messed with the groove.  The one statement made me think a lot about the feel of the groove and how I play.  This is why Ringo was so good - he was so sensitive that a slight disruption to the flow would cause him a lot of grief.  Another way to look at this is that the fills or other "filler" stuff MUST draw attention to itself which can distract the listeners from the groove.  Good essay Robyn, thanks for posting.

Let's not get too down on fills.
The right fill at the right moment can lift a whole band performance, either live or in the studio.
This is a good reminder to think about how you want to play something.
Also a good reminder to keep working on your playing - in my case practicing not opening the hi-hat (disco style) every four bars.  >:(

Personally, I play no fills by default. I only listen for clues in the music, and all the variations of the grooves (fills, crashes, hi-hat lifts, ruffs, syncopations et c) are based on that. If you think of it, there are LOTS of great songs that has no fills, not even cymbal crashes. Yet, I think a lot of us feel a bit scared of playing simple (I know I do). We're scared that the audience and fellow musicians are going to think we're lame-ass drummers, because we're not "playing anything". You have to be convinced that what you're doing is right, and the next step is to convince everybody else.

Great discussion.

I definitely like how it all feels and sounds Much more when I cut back on the fills.
However, at this audition I'm going to next week, I Guarantee I play more fills
than I should.   :) 

It is a coincidence that Robyn posted this topic.  The past few weeks I have noticed that many of the older #1 hits were shorter songs.  Most are less than 3 minutes and many are less than 2:40.  Almost without exception these songs were totally groove with few drum fills.  I was also trying to find reasoning in the fact that when the same musicians play live the drummer used more fills than on the recording.

I'm glad for this great discussion! For me as a noob drummer, it's always been a source of anxiety to "come up with" different fills during a song, so that I'm not playing the same fill every time. ::)  Reading this was actually a great relief, that, boy I don't have to come up w/ beaucoup fills every 4 bars--hurray! ;D
 One song we do w/ the praise band is in 6/8, the original (I'm very anal about copying the original as closely as I can when it's warranted) has a very simple tom pattern, kick on 1 and 4, w/ a few snare accents on the bridge, no fills, and ends w/ the only cymbal crash in the song. Very simple to play, but gives the song a wonderful Celtic feel and a ton of energy! The first time I played it this way, many people came up to me afterwards and commented on it.
 So I'm gonna work on this no-fills/frills thing, and see what happens when I do them less often. Altho many times my "fills" are just a hit on 4a, and that's it.

robyn

I'm with Chrisso.  Let's not get too down on fills.  If a song is only 3 minutes- I want to hear something happen.  I want to hear some drums and hopefully they will be hip!  I also agree with the person whom said one has to be confident in their approach.

I've been working on our new record the past year and I have been taking a minimalist approach.  I got flack from it when I first joined the band and some of the fans (now gone).  But a year has passed and the band has a bigger, fatter and better sound now that everyone is starting to "get it".

I still want to hit the listener over the head with a sledge hammer though.  So I'm marking the important changes in the music; playing simply but hard and precise/obviously grooving the best I can while implementing theme and variation and hopefully musicality.  The latest song I've worked on is a culmination of this; I will have to post it here shortly to see what you cats think.

My problem is I do this thing where I fill, but disguise it as part of the groove. Its a problem because I just cant stop myself.

Whenever I play and 8th note on the hihat grove I always sneak in some sixteenths on the hihat. Usually around "4 e &" sometimes around "2 e &". Measure after measure. My rationale would be that it helps the groove, or that since it is on the hihat it doesn't count as a fill, but a better guess would be that I can't stand dead air or can't maintain time without subdividing. So I try to be rock solid and simple in my 8ths, kick, snare, etc. But as soon as my mind wanders I'm doing it again.

Hey, let's face it... playing fills is fun & exciting!  What drummer would think not?   ;)

However, I lost a gig once b/c they told me I "over drummed" and played "too many notes" ... that was for a smooth jazz band... you know, that "elevator music" where there's lots of groove flowing but not much energy... and after I thought about that for a while I saw their point.  That, for me, made me more aware that music listeners (as well as your fellow musicians in the band) prefer groove than "small solos", otherwise know as "fills" ... that experience taught me to focus on the musical experience instead of demonstrating chops... sometimes the music calls for a "short solo" and other times not... probably most of the time, in fact...

Don't get me wrong... I do love playing fills... and they can add spice to a groove when used appropriately... the more difficult thing for a drummer to learn is when to play one...

Al Jackson, Jr (great 70's soul drummer) would play song after song with no fills. I cover a lot of his stuff and have tried to emulate that.

My adult son is also a musician and has heard me play many times, in many different styles of music. He has started counting how many fills I do per song. A month or so ago, I played a soul tune... at the end he held up one finger. Seems I hit the small tom once in the song. Funny.

OH, I recently listed to the playback of a rock gig I did a couple weeks ago. My juices got flowing and and the groove suffered because I played too many fills and crashes. @$%#, see what trying to show off got me?!

I've investigated this.
My conclusion? The drum performance is less important to the enjoyment of the song on record than it is in live performance.
On record the listener is focused on the song, the melody, lyrics and vocalist and then the backing (an amalgam of guitars, keys, drums etc).
In live performance you have to add in energy, enthusiasm, dynamics and the visual experience. The audience wants to experience in effect the record plus.
Over many years I've experimented with a stripped back, groove oriented live performance. On listening back to live recordings it often appears too clinical, too workmanlike. I also noticed my fellow bandmates were less engaged with the drumming.
By contrast, with a slight ramping up of energy and a few more carefully orchestrated fills than the original recording, I find the audience perceives more enthusiasm, spontaneity, and a commitment to entertain (whether all of that is true or not).
I also find your band mates appreciate a 'playing for the song' mentality in the studio and a playing for the moment, with energy and enthusiasm, attitude in a live setting.

I guess it goes back to my comments in a thread about the Weird Al show.  It was something to the effect of "Not only excellent musicians but great entertainers!"  It must be that old adage of what the song requires and adding "at the moment". 

I'm with you on this, but I think the problem is in the interpretation(s) of playing "in the moment" ;)

Live drumming today seems to be much busier than the old days, in general, while the drums on record are still fairly simple, IMO. I guess the audiences have a higher tolerance for overplaying these days, or rather, they want to hear some chopsy drumming. Personally, I'd rather see/hear a drum solo spot, than hearing over-the-top drumming destroy the songs. But that's just me (who hasn't been to a concert since Steely Dan last July, on which Carlock didn't overplay) ;D

Overplaying can be technically very subtle, you know? Let's say somebody is covering "Georgy Porgy" by TOTO. The drummer plays 2 & 4 with 16ths on the hihat, and then he adds the hi-hat accents on every 5th stroke, creating a "metric modulation". Now, that sounds really cool and interesting, BUT it's totally irrelevant to the song. Technically, it's a very subtle variation of the pattern, but musically, it's not. Likewise, I could come up with many one-bar fills that would fit the song nicely, although the original is much simpler.

That is why music is art rather than a science; however some science can be practiced as an art.

Hmm, when I think of overplaying (in the best possible way), I think of Mitch Mitchell, Ginger Baker and Keith Moon.
Then in the 70's you had the popularity of jazz/rock; Gadd, Cobham, Mouzon, Simon Phillips. In the same era the emergence of art/rock; Yes, Genesis, Rush.

I think the drumming of today is some of the most pared down, least self indulgent playing I can think of. Especially since so many modern drummers have been influenced by machines and repeated groove loops.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "old days" and it varies considerably by genre and style within a genre.  I remember some very busy (manic) players in my youth as Chris points out.  I do get bored easy also, so I don't listen to a lot music that is "trance inducing".  

What I listen to and what I get to play live are not always the same thing if you know what I mean.  I often listen to either very busy music - fusion, big band, prog OR Benny Carter, Billy Evans.  With other musicians I mostly play R&B, Rock or church praise stuff.  So it takes some effort to move from one style to another.  I absolutely love Portnoy on Neal Morse's "One" but I can't take that kind of playing to the gig for two reasons 1) whenever I try to get fancy, I get in trouble 2) even if I could, it would be a distraction.  So it seems to me that knowing when to do what is the name of the game and learning to listen from an audience point of view is a skill to strive for.  

Mitchell, Moon and Baker could often be very busy, but personally I wouldn't use the word overplaying. To me, overplaying means throwing in things were they simply don't belong, like playing a busy, syncopated 16th-feel when the tune screams for a relaxed straight 8th feel. But I certainly don't mind busy drumming, as long as it's within the right context. I think Mitchell, Moon and Baker all did what was right for the music. But I don't believe they were much busier live than on record.

The drumming on today's pop/rock records is extremely simple, no question about it.

See, I listen to alot of that older stuff now and I don't really like what Mitch Michell, Moonie, Genesis and even  some  of what Rush and Led Zep did.

Same with jazz and other prog rock stuff.  It just sounds over the top at times.

Which is cool for some folks.

I really like how Chrisso said a live performance should be stepped up in intensity.  I will have to remember that.  I do indeed forget that at times, especially at gigs I can't stand.

Maybe I'm wrong.  ???

It's the conclusion I've come to though after a few years of playing.

I agree.

I can personally guarantee I never "play perfect" for the situation.  But heck I'm playing so that's all that matters.  If somebody likes it, awesome.  If I like it, awesome.  If they don't like it and I don't like it then things can get rough.   ::)

Alot has to do with the sound, and I usually know pretty quick.  If everything is phat and sounds good, hopefully my musicality will take over and I can try and make some magic.  But if everything is lame and I'm in hell; I just won't take responsibility for my actions there on out ;D

I won't argue with the fact that audiences in general seem to love busy, intense drumming. The more I play, the more compliments I receive - no question whatsoever. This is really a sore spot for me. I love busy drumming, I love simple drumming, but I just hate when things sounds out-of-place. This also goes for overly simple, lazy drumming, when the tune really needs an intense, lively drum part. But maybe I'm just being too sensitive here. I'm playing for an audience, not myself, after all ;)

As for overplaying, I'm really not sure if I understand the true meaning of the word, either. It's just my interpretation.

I tend to do that, too. It's easy to fall into habits like this, or like going to the ride cymbal for the chorus of the song, etc. But habits are NOT a good reason for playing something. It should be a conscious choice.

Also - and this is something that may affect older drummers more than younger ones - the common structures used in popular music have changed over the years. We used to have very distinct sections to songs: verses, B sections, choruses, bridges, intros, outros, etc. Each of these sections often required a different groove, or at least some modification in the drum part.

With the advent of sampling and computer-based recording and composition, we're seeing a lot of music with less distinct sections. Many hiphop tunes don't have a bridge, and/or they don't require a different groove for the chorus than for the verse. I read a Steve Gadd interview where he said he doesn't put nearly as much emphasis on changing grooves for different parts of songs as he used to, because these days the music often no longer dictates changes like that.

Many very popular - and thus, influential - songs have drum parts that were not crafted by drummers. They were programmed by producers or songwriters, or lifted from the grooves of other songs and assembled in a sort of sonic collage. This, too, has changed the landscape for us.

But I will say one thing about the notion of needing to play more notes to excite an audience. I don't think that's a necessity. What IS a necessity is playing with conviction, and conveying that conviction to your audience. You can do this with how physical you get with your instrument, with how animated you are when you play, and with your facial expressions - no matter how many notes you were playing. One of the keys to Ringo's success was that he looked like he was having fun, bobbing his head nonstop to the music.

From Aronoff to Gadd, when you watch those guys play, there is NO question that they are "into it" - as a result, drummers and non-drummers alike absolutely LOVE to watch guys like that play, no matter how simple or complex their drumming may be. So I recommend that you give serious thought to what you look like when you play if you're concerned (as you should be) about appealing to your audience.

Habits are very hard to modify.  I worked with one group in the late 70 that required the ride on every chorus.  It took a long time to change that habit. 

After all this reading, Chris mentioned something here that I kept thinking about the whole thread. What would Rush, Early Journey, Santana, Mitch Mitchell, John Bonham, Ginger Baker, Keith Moon, Tommy Aldridge etc,etc and on and on and on, sound like with no fills?
I was playing to James Brown on Sex Machine and the snare work I was doing on that groove is what my wife upstairs said she liked hearing the best out my 2 hours of playing.
I was wearing the snare out with fills that worked with the groove and I don't mean every 8 or 16 measures either. Something a little different each time but it felt the same, groove wise.
I am not sure about any of this.  I think it all depends on what the music calls for.  You wouldn't put Neil Peart on a Karen Carpender song. Ginger Baker on a Beatles song. John Bonham on a James Taylor song. These are different types of music that require different types of drumming. You wouldn't take a trash metal drummer and play Stevie Ray like that either.  Just my two cents.
                        Nutty

On the flip side, I was told many years ago that the hardest thing for a drummer to learn is where not to play.... Todays standards has changed, so I think I'll just continue to be Chip. I've never had a problem with that. Plus I've been told many times by audience members how much they love my playing. I guess it's either "What do they know vs. What do I know." Either way, as long as people like it I won't argue with them.  ;D

Well said.   

I played with a certain drummer for about a year, and when people from work would come hear us play, they'd often kid me about whether or not the drummer was awake or not.  He was a good player, yet it was low energy and - he just had no presentation.  No doubt it sucked energy from our performance.   

Unfortunately, these players got a little too laxed about the whole deal.
They used to joke about "getting paid to practice" when the crowd was small.
Maybe the crowd was small because we were a bunch of middle agers who
weren't really entertaining with energy.

I never got with the joke.   Never will.

Getting paid to practice is fine.  The energy should be there for practice too! 

I don't want anyone to think I'm talking in these extreme terms.
For me, I generally trim down my playing as much as possible in the studio.
Every fill, every ghost note, every open hi-hat (oh yes  ;)) is justifiable or it doesn't go to tape.
In the live context, I tend to think less about these aspects of my drumming and focus more on making the band feel good, conveying the message of the music, and not forgetting to include an element of entertainment in what I'm doing.
It doesn't mean I go from machine-like to busy and self indulgent.
For example, in the studio I might lay my drums down before any guitar solos.
If I know I'm playing through a proposed guitar solo I might start to open up the hi-hat towards the end, or (less often) go to the ride. Then I'll mark the end of the solo with a fill.
When I'm backing a guitar solo in concert I generally play with more energy. I'll probably double my fills (from one to two at least). The fills I choose will definitely be something aimed to give the guitarist an inspirational kick up the bum. And I'll often choose a fill that includes elements of what the guitarist is playing in order to reinforce the climax of their solo.
In other words, if they are climaxing on a rhythmic figure (often 3 against 4 repeated), I'll orchestrate a fill between the toms and cymbals in a 3 against 4 pattern.
If they are playing a 32nd note scale up to the top end of the guitar, I'll play a loud 32nd note snare roll.......or something along those lines.

Great topic!!  This is a skill even the most seasoned of drummers can struggle with.

It's great to read about this stuff.  It's great to listen to all of our heros and up and coming artists as well.  There are so many awesome players out there; all so very different.

I think the really great players can cop alot of different styles and grooves.  I also think many great players just are/were themselves.

After years of learning the basics/playing technique (or not) then delving into advanced areas of study (or not) the drummer is faced with choices.   Then you have your choices and  the environment in which to use them.  I don't know about you guys but my body and head come into play also: everything might be going well or I might be having some problems.  It's the pinnacle of the art: how one plays in different situations.

  I like the zen aspect of channeling fills from "the great ocean" but I think there are times where I get a fill in my head and I want to keep it and use it.

There are times when I get a floor of dancing people and ya' just have to keep the momentum.  And there were times when I have played rockstar as well as taking cracks at being a fusion player.  yes there have been times I have been soaked in sweat and other times I have played so lazy that I garnered looks and negative comments from others.

Speaking for myself- I try to do whats right for the situation and that situation can last years; ergo, I start "specializing" in that style.  Just keep it smooth whatever ya do and enjoy it.  People will dig it usually.  I am just just flesh and blood though and I have high highs and low lows.

I think I like drumming more than ever these days, and hopefully can continue to play and maybe improve a bit too  ;D

Oh wow, my wife just got me a new book entitled "The Consolations of Philosophy" by Alain de Botton (he's on PBS- very wild stuff for the hed  ;D)  Maybe it will help my drumming in some abstract way?  Art imitates life I guess.

Journey on fellow drummies!

Thanks for the clarification.  It makes the discussion more interesting because now we can talk about how best to incorporate fills - which everyone has a different perspective - as opposed to whether they should be played or not ( everyone has a different perspective, but it's just yea or nea ).

I don't know about Yea or Nah.  In my opinion, a drummer that does no fills and plays with no emotion or feel can be replaced with a drum machine ;).
                         Nutty