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What do you people feel is the best-feeling e-drum kit out there, (past to present)? Not wanting a gear-slamming thread, just individual opinions :) Not just kits, Octapad/DrumKat devices are also welcome.

My personal favorite is actually the original ddrum kit from around -85 or so.....I think it was called ddrum Rack  ??? Anyway, it had four sounds per drum, bass/treble/pitch and sensitivity controls, and no MIDI. The most usable of the available sounds were no doubt the Simmons-kit that they sampled (think "Chicago 17"), they sounded really nice, actually. Not great for everything, though ;)

What I really liked about this kit however, was the sensitivity of the pads. To this day, I haven't found anything close to it. Not that I've tried every kit on the market. It should be noted, that the triggering systems are different, since the old ddrums were not MIDI devices. But these pads had the best dynamic response I've ever experienced in an electronic kit.

poor dynamic response has been my primary complaint for E-drums. 

I had Roland kits for a while but ultimately sold them on Ebay... one kit had a TD-8 and another had the TD-10 module.  My buddy bought the flagship TD-12, along with the newer pads & hi-hats.  There wasn't much difference in the sound on any of those modules, IMO ... and they all lacked the dynamic range (which is primarily a function of the transducers inside the pads) but they are very fun to play and easy to setup for recording.

I've heard that the DDrum module has superior sounds but I've never tried them.

Concerning the "feel" I much prefer mesh heads to the rubber pads.  The mesh heads don't stress your joints as much as the rubber pads.  Neither type of heads feel like real drums.  I've heard that Heart Dynamics offers heads that come close to the feel of real drums.

I agree with you, the dynamic range is the real problem with e-drums. While I see that it's unfair to compare the different triggering systems of MIDI-pads and the older ddrum technology, I'm imagining that it should be possible to get a better response out of the 127 dynamic levels that MIDI offers. Again, I've only tried a few of the kits on the market. I must say though, that the convenience of an e-kit and the sounds available ( like the wonderful Toontrack libraries) keeps me interested.

BTW, I have no financial interest in Toontrack. Possibly, I'm a little patriotic :-[ ;D

They say (regular e-drummers) that poor dynamic response is down to a lot of tweaking of the settings, and not a basic problem with the kits.
I've certainly seen some people play e-kits as if they were acoustic kits. Quite amazing.
I haven't played any D-Drums although I've heard they are good.
The best e-drums I've played have been by Hart Dynamics.

I think all the onboard sounds (Roland, Yamaha, Alesis etc are bad).

You're right, I haven't done much tweaking with the new kits either. And I imagine these settings are also dependent on the volume level, since our ears are not linear......maybe ???

The ddrum kit I'm speaking of, BTW, was made before ddrum AT, before ddrum 2, before ddrum +.........I'm not even sure if these things were available outside Sweden ???

Tweaking of the settings can improve the response.  However, the dynamic response is a design limitation of the transducer and, as such, has nothing to do with the user settings.  One can minimize the inherent limitations by tweaking the user settings... for example, adjusting the "sensitivity" to "zero".  The transducers used in E-drums are somewhat like switches (not exactly, but similar)...

Hart Dynamics only manufactures pads... not the "module" or "brain" as some people call it.  The module is what generates the sound... the pads that Hart makes are just the "switches" that trigger the module.

Sooo, what does all that mean?  Well, I can play an E-kit at a very low force and the module will never generate a sound... you could adjust settings until you are blue in the face but no sound will be generated... Thats what I dont like about E-drums!  the church I play at has an older model Roland TD-10.  Sometimes when I play at "ppp" level the darn module never makes a sound!  I've since learned to play all the time at "fff" to ensure each note gets produced!  That's what got me to not like E-drums!   :-\

Why?
I started this thread because I was simply amazed at the dynamic playing on an e-kit by Nir-Z:
http://www.drummercafe.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,23065.0

He's promoting a new product, but I believe he uses e-drums at his own studio a lot and has spent some time 'tweaking the settings' to suit his way of playing.
If you can stand to watch the video all the way though, he plays whisper quiet at various points.

I watched for a couple of minutes but got impatient... not sure what he was getting at...

anyway... not wanting to argue about E-drums... just responding to the topic..

i'm pretty happy with mine:

(http://home.earthlink.net/~jokerny1/music/drums/spacemuffinsstage.jpg)

Hmm, I'm not arguing either.
You proposed e-drums were never able to be played sensitively and at very low levels no matter how much they were tweaked.
I merely posted a link to a film clip that I believe proves the opposite.
Nir-Z is lightly tapping his Hart snare pad and the module and sound samples are responding in kind.

Apologies for the salesman voice over.....
But 50 seconds in Nir-Z is hardly tickling the Hart e-pads and the samples are still sounding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVUVnSzlAd8

Even easier to hear at 1:29

I have a combination of Roland mesh pads and a Hart 13" mesh snare. They have a great "feel" when I play them. I joined a new band recently and I have been using a set of Pearls at the rehearsal room. I don't notice much difference in "feel" between the A kit and the E kit, but my ears do. The room and my ears were saturated with sound last night. Since this is a cover band it makes more sense to play the Es because I can get closer to the drum sound of the various music we're playing. I will probably stay with my acoustic cymbals though. As good as my Roland and Hart Ecymbals are, they don't sound as good as my 25 year old Zildjians.

yeah, synthesizing cymbal sounds pushes the limit of today's digital sound generators (the electronics inside the Roland box)...

Chris, I understood your point with the video clip... my opinion on E-drums is based upon previously owning and playing this equipment for years... along with an intimate knowledge of how the electronics work (and how to tweak the user settings)...  I did enjoy playing them and , yes, I was able to adjust the user settings to match my playing style.  However, I was simply pointing out that Edrums do not have as good of dynamic range as Adrums... which can be measured and quantified in dBs (decibels)... that's not an opinion... that is a fact... can Louis (for example) adjust his Yamaha drums and play softly?  Yes, of course.   ;)

If you set and forget they do not have the same range.  The ekit requires different playing techniques.  For some songs or parts of a song I must "turn up or turn down the volume" much the same as the guitar player.  I worked with my ekit 2 years before I was comfortable enough to play it on a gig. 

I don't like playing them myself I admit.
Rather than dynamics, I find the inability to hear different timbres with different stick strokes a barrier. I'm just so used to the feel of acoustic drums. Hearing the same couple of sounds, no matter where I hit the pad, just seems odd to me.
But e-kits (with this software) are getting more and more responsive and more and more multi-timbral.

If I ever buy a legit electronic kit, it would be for rehearsal at night.
I just can't see myself ever playing out with one - it's gotta be acoustic for me.

Mine is a Roland V-Session with the TD10.  I haven't played too many other kits, even within the Roland family but I absolutely love my V-Session.  We've been slamm'n on this kit for years now and never had a problem.  Everything has worked, the hardware is solid, documentation is decent, tech support at least for the one question I had was superior.  The sensitivity/dynamic range is NOT the same as acoustic but out of the box without extra stuff it's very good. Good enough to do some pretty nice ghosting and to pop simulated rim shots.  If I play very, very softly on the mesh heads, they don't respond whereas an acoustic would produce sound but it's at a level where an audience wouldn't hear it anyway.  There is a more pronounced issue with the cymbals and this is the weakness.  The sound and timbre is not acoustic but again, out of the box are some kit sounds that work really well in different settings and you can tweak everything or download a bunch of awesome stuff from different sites.  I've taken this into live settings with a big band and rock/R&B thing and got lots of complements. In one case the Vdrum was need because it was an outdoor gig and the board had only one input available.  Mic'g the acoustic would have required a separate sub mixer which I didn't have at the time.  My preference is always to play an acoustic kit but the V-drum works - it's just different. 

Mine was the V Session, too... also had a TD-8 with mesh heads... I actually liked the cheaper TD-8 better than the TD-10.  I played lots of gigs with them and was very happy for a few years... used then to teach students... and they did great for some recordings.  I just prefer A-kits now.

I've been playing a set of Yamaha DTXTREME ll's for 2 years now. I don't play my acoustic kit anymore. The DTXTREMEll kit sounds and feels great. The new DTXTREME lll kit will be in my local drum shop in a few weeks and I'm picking one up. They've made some huge improvements and the kit is the best I've seen as far as E -kits go.

Please tell more.  What makes it the best for you?

Chris,

What MIDI interface are the Hart pads going into?
I assume it's Hart pads->(interface?)->computer(with DFH) and then there's some kind of audio interface to output the sound.

Don't know if you are privy to the setup details but I was interested.

Jim

My guess (because this is how I set mine up):

Hart Pads -> Roland TD-20 (Hart Pro Triggers are designed to do their best work with a TD-20) Midi Out -> Simple Midi Interface -> Superior 2.0 -> Audio Card Out to Monitors.
out of t
I run my TD-20 into an Echo Layla, recording the 8 direct outs and the midi signal.  That way, we can go with the sounds from the TD-20, or we can use the midi to trigger sample banks. 

If you didn't care about the audio from the Brain, you could get away with an M-Audio Midisport or something similar.  You would still need a decent 2 channel audio card to run sound to your monitors.

I have a love/hate relationship with my e-drums.  I have gigged with them, and I do a lot of recording with them.  I use Hart Pro triggers with Ecymbal II's.  I run them into a TD-20 Brain, and I have a couple of the VexpressionsLTD presets loaded. 

I decided to buy E-drums because my neighbors back in Connecticut were elderly, and weren't too fond of all the recording I was doing.  Soundproofing was not an option in that house, so I did some research and took the E-drum plunge.  I chose Hart mainly because of their hardware.  Roland's hardware is proprietary, so if something breaks, I can't just go down to the music store and pick up a Gibraltar rack clamp.  I played both Roland and Hart triggers, and they feel and respond the same.  I couldn't tell the difference. 

I enjoy the ease of recording with the e-drums.  The tracks are very easy to manipulate, since there is only one instrument on each track.  The kick drum track only contains the kick drum sound, for example.  The downside is that you end up with a very sterile drum sound, with no room sound.  It takes some tweaking to get things sounding nice.  That's the reason that we record the midi output as well, we can take the track I laid down, and start messing around with sample libraries like Superior to get some room sounds happening. 

The downside is that you don't have all these beautiful pieces of wood and metal vibrating and responding around you.  I find that I miss that feeling when you're really grooving and you have that instant feedback from the acoustic drums.  Rock and Jazz are especially tricky on the Edrums.  Rock, because you need to convey all of that energy and drive into the recording, and Jazz because of all the subleties that need to be happening.   

Playing Live with the Edrums can be a lot of fun, or it can be a headache.  You absolutely need to have a good monitor setup, either with IEM's or a big old wedge.  I found that if I couldn't hear the drums well enough, I would end up playing way way too hard.  The upside was that I could replicate a lot of the crazy sounds that were happening in the songs that we parodied. (My favorite song for e-drums was Pink's Just Like a Pill, parodied as I need Dr. Phil). 

Cymbals are the weakest link in anyone's e-drum setup.  I think Roland has the most responsive and best feeling hi-hats out there, but you'll pay for it.  Hart's crashes are similar to hitting a frisbee on a spring.  They do the job, but it's my least favorite part of my kit. 

I have also used a Yamaha DTXpress III SE drumset for practice, and we now use it so the singer can do dummy drum tracks to send to me when we're writing.  Yamaha makes good stuff, not quite as nice as the Hart and Roland, but it's much more affordable.  If I was on a budget, and needed a small drumset for practice, I'd definitely look into Yamaha. 

It's been 3-4 years since I bought my Hart drums.  I still like them, but for certain projects I want a lively acoustic drum performance that I can't quite achieve with the E-drums.  They are excellent for easy, quality drum recordings.  I plug in my 8 cables, fire up Sonar, and I'm ready to go.  If I have another 2 grand to burn, I would upgrade all the cymbals to Roland, because I really like the way they feel and respond.  I have sent my Ecymbal hi-hats, 2 crashes, and kick trigger back to Hart to have the Trigger housing fixed.  The kick was a flawed solder at the ouput jack, which they fixed and reinforced.  The cymbals were another matter, they just decided to stop working.  It could be player error, it could be something else entirely, I'm just not sure.  I do not like the design of the Ecymbals, and if I had my druthers, I would've gone with Roland cymbals from day one.

I would not try to gig with them again.  They are not really rugged enough for that, and it's cheaper to replace a broken drum head than a broken mesh head or a bad cable. 

A nice way to go Nathan. 8)

However, I'm thinking that Roland was left out of this equation. This is a DFH demo as far as I can tell. The way I see it, they probably don't want anyone calc'ing in Roland sound modules in order to play - more sound sources.

If you also factor in that much of the V-drum technology that gives the sound/feel of a real drum set doesn't work on triggered MIDI sound sources, a TD-20 would be less useful. I was thinking that the Hart pads might be going into a DrumKat or possibly the Roland TMC6 and then into a Pro Tools interface since DFH is usually used as a VI within a host program.

I'm thinking of eventually getting DFH and I would use my SPD-S as both MIDI interface and trigger. However, I'm stepping gingerly into this area. I was burned in the 80's by the technology tidal wave that was changing incredibly fast back then. You had to be in a special place to be both current and getting a decent ROI in drumming electronics. My SPD-S was the first step back into the e-ring after being out for about 20 years. It's been a good investment and is still very current after having it for 2 years. This timeline was unheard of in the '80's.

If I were to start having opportunities to earn serious money from a more robust e-drum setup, I'd probably invest in the setup I was speculating that Nir-Z was using. By the time I do it though there may be very different choices and technology available.

You may have noticed my emphasis on how electronic/digital/MIDI technology changed quickly which became very expensive for working Joe's in the '80's. I would also point out that you can use use, love and cherish a beautiful snare or cymbal for decades. Spend a few hundred (or less) and you have an almost timeless acoustic investment. Not so with e-drum purchases.

Electronics can be like a fickle (Southern California) trophy wife who only goes and stays where the money is. Fun at first but painful later.

Poor taste analogies aside, my advice is to make sure you know why you are spending money on electronics and that you don't go into debt for them unless you can pay it off the next month or two with wages earned using them.

Nuff said.

Jim

Jim,
The midi and audio output are both handled by a Digidesign MBox.
You still need the e-drum brain to translate trigger information to midi.
Toontrack have their own software playback product which is cheaper than Pro Tools or Cubase. It's designed for e-drum live performance and is called 'Solo'.
The chain in the video was this:
Hart dynamics Pro
Roland TD-20 module * midi to Digidesign MBox
iMac
Toontrack Solo set to 64 buffers

Lots of Superior users are using different set-ups and having good results though.
But the Toontrack boys have always used Hart pads and a Roland TD20 brain. I guess they must like that combo.
Just to remind everyone, no Roland sounds are used whatsoever, the brain is merely there to convert trigger impulse to midi.

Thanks Chris.

And Nathan - I stand corrected. :P

I honestly didn't think the Toontrack guys would use a competing sound source, even just as a MIDI interface, in a demo. Like I'd mentioned, a DrumKat has so many MIDI features and capabilities, I'd think that the DK would be the first choice for these guys. I also was trying figure if using the TD-20 vs. a DrumKat has any MIDI latency issues. But....apparently not.

Thanks for the info Chris and Nathan.

Jim

Lot's of people do use the Drumkat.

I think the thing with the Hart/Roland combination, you can play it exactly like an acoustic kit.
I could never get on with the small size of the Drumkat pads, although I know you can use their remote pads and pedals too. Do the drumkat pads have multiple sensing zones?
That's a big part of the realism in the Hart/Roland combo.

As far as 'competing', the Roland sounds are as close to Superior as a Fender Rhodes is to a Steinway IMHO. Apples and oranges as they say.

Makes me wonder why, thats quite an expensive item if you use it for interface-only tasks. An Alesis IO would do the job as well.

Semi-on-topic; I`m looking at getting an electronic drumset. Being on a (student) budget I was personally thinking about getting a simple drumkit (2nd hand, or a Pearl Rhythm Traveler), use it with mesh heads and triggers, run the whole thing through an Alesis IO into a computer with the necessary software. And adding some 'standard' cymbal pads. I was thinking about using the DDrum Pro series triggers, does anyone here has some experience with these regarding sensitivity etc?

Hmm, dunno.
I'll try and find out.  :)

I can totally see using the Hart pads with the DrumKat therefore retaining a drumset paradigm. You'd just plug in the pads and use the DrumKat as auxiliary striking area.


I guess my question is: Once you stop using the Roland brain for sounds, do those multiple sensing areas translate to DFH software? I thought that kind of response went away and you were left with setting crossfades for velocity based switching via MIDI. Still - I don't know whether the DK pads have multiple sensing areas.




I've never A/B'd the sounds but I certainly was hoping for that. Still convincing a price sensitive public that they need a high end sound source drum brain to work with higher end sound source could be a tough sell. I might mosey over to the folks at edrumming and throw around what we've been talking about. I'm sure to get some helpful info from dyed in the wool e-drum fanatics. ;D

Jim

Yes, that would be interesting.

The only other answer I can give you right now is that the multi-sensing pads definitely have an effect on Superior.

Apparently the Toontrack team weren't happy with the results using the Alesis I/O, in particular the latency. Although they admitted they didn't spend a lot of time trying to tweak it.

"One issue we experienced with the Trigger|iO and our Mac was latency. When we struck the drum pad there was a slight delay in the response of the sound from the Mac. There is a section in the manual that addresses latency issues and provides suggestions for how to resolve the problem. To be clear, the latency issue has nothing to do with the Trigger|iO. This is a common problem with computer sound cards and in most cases is resolved when the buffer in your audio software is set to a lower number. We contacted Alesis about this issue and they also recommended using an external audio interface such as their Alesis IO 14 or any other USB or Firewire device with dedicated software drivers (as opposed to relying on the default audio technology built into the operating system). Fortunately, we had a third party audio interface at our disposal which resolved the latency issue."

http://www.musicplayers.com/reviews/drums/2007/1107_Alesis_TriggerIO.php

That does make some sense. A dedicated audiointerface (with it's own ASIO drivers) should work better than the run-of-the-mill drivers our favorite OSs get shipped with.

I was going to try to answer this last night, but after wine and scallops with my Valentine, I figured I'd better leave it til the morning.

The TD-20 is able to convert everything into a midi signal.  This includes the position sensing, the snare roll thing, cymbal rolls, etc.  Depending on your software and sample library, you may not be able to replicate those things once the midi data is recorded.

From Nir-Z's demonstration, the toontrack software is fully capable of utilizing all of the midi information from the TD-20, which is pretty darn impressive.

You can go into the TD-20, and edit how much midi information it sends.  If you wanted, you could simply have it send velocity, note, pan information.   

The Alesis unit would not be able to translate the position sensing of the pads into a midi value.  It's just not designed to be able to do that.

Yes, it's a valuable piece of equipment to be relegated to a midi interface, but what it's really doing is converting all of the information from the pads into a midi value.  I've taken that midi recording, and played it back out through the brain while I switched between patches.  If you want a different snare, it's just a matter of switching the patch in the module.

Yes, the positional sensing is not supported by the Alesis. This is quite crucial to getting the best out of the Toontrack software.

This is not the answer I'm afraid.
Toontrack have been in the business of sample triggering for many years.
They routinely use top of the range sound cards, dedicated audio interfaces such as those from Digidesign etc. This states you can't rely on your computer's onboard system which most certainly would not have been the case.
I'm told they also trialed both set-ups with drummer Nir-Z, who is himself quite expert in e-drumming. They found the Alesis quite lumpy, but the Roland very smooth.

Is there any other software designed to work with the positional sensing? 

The more I hear about this Superior 2.0, the more impressed I am.  I think I'll be picking this up.

Yes.
There is quite some competition (tell me about it  ::)).

There are many drum software products, some deal with multi-samples, hi-hat controllers and positional sensing more than others.
There are Toontrack products (EZdrummer and Superior2.0), with whom I have a connection:
www.toontrack.com
There is an equally popular product called BFD2 by FXpansion:
www.fxpansion.com
One of the great things about BFD is that there is a third party developer also offering great sounds in that format; Platinum Samples.
www.platinumsamples.com
Another popular product is Addictive Drums.
The pros for that are it's quite easy to use and people love the onboard fx. A con would be the limited number of drums offered (3 kits) compared to BFD and Superior.
www.xlnaudio.com
A new arrival on the scene is Ocean Way Drums:
www.oceanwaydrums.com
And possibly the ultimate product for microscopic detail is Mixosaurus:
www.mixosaurus.com

As I said, the field is very competitive and each product has it's differences.
Some work seamlessly with e-drums, others struggle. Some cost hundreds of dollars, others less than a hundred.

I've heard also of a product called gigasample. I know nothing about it but our band's bass player is doing some recording projects and is using this. I should be finding out more this year since he's asked me to play on some stuff, using this product.

All the products I linked to above are drum specific, and in most cases designed to facilitate e-drum triggering.
Gigasampler is just a software sampler (like a software Akai S1000). people use it for pianos and orchestral sounds etc.
I'm sure you can use it for drums, but it almost certainly wont be as natural sounding as some of the above products:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec98/articles/gigasample.143.htm

Wow, I have some research to do.  Thanks Chris!

That does make sense. But for a guy on a budget (like me) who isn't able to afford a TD20 (or even a TD6), would it be an ok piece of equipment to use in combination with triggered meshheads etc? I don't think the TD3 or TD6 drumbrains have that many dedicated options compared to just triggering through the Alesis using software.

I guess it depends what results you would be happy with.
I must say I've been resisting the e-drum purchase because it is such an expensive area.
Probably worth googling some e-drumming forums too (where there's a wealth of user information and feedback).

Will definitely do that :) The thing is that even I get individual roland pads, a hihat controller etc that it's still much cheaper for me to just go with a midi interface instead of buying a drummodule.