DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

Lately at the kit I've been trying to improve my overall ergonomics, make everything easier to play physically, so that I'm not trying to put both hands in the same conflicting space at the same time, etc etc.
But I've noticed...

While just grooving, it seems my right hand impedes the room of my left.  My left hand (snare hand) seems to be limited in it's range of motion (or just getting claustrophobic).  When I'm grooving on my ride with my right hand far away, my left hand is comfortable and happy, but as soon as I'm back on the hats, it's put in it's little crawl space (so to speak).

So I guess my questions are:
Have you just gotten used to using your left hand in a smaller space?

How do you have your hats and snare setup in relation to each other? Let's go with the hats' position relative to the snare for explinations (ie- Hats are at 9 oclock to the snare).

How far are your hats away from you? And at what angle? As in, your lead hand reaches to 9 or 11 oclock grooving on the hats.

I'm trying to just get real comfortable grooving and getting my snare hand to feel good about hitting the snare, not as if it has to get power that isn't there from a 1/4 or 1/3 (at best) of a full-stroke.
(mind you this is all assuming that I don't emphasize the strokes on my hats when playing the snare on the same beat)


Thanks!
Z

I experienced the same feeling, TamaDrummer.  Crossing my right hand over my left just became uncomfortable and didn't make much sense to me anymore.  Mainly a product of tradition and how I learned, I guess. 

I spent a long time looking at Dony Wynn's and Bill Bruford's setups, wondering how funky and weird it would be to play my hi-hats in the 12:00 position.  Then, shortly after joining the Cafe, I started seeing Bart's setup and chefdoug's setup, also with the hi-hats in the 12:00 position. 

So I spent some cash on a remote hi-hat and have never looked back.  If you haven't before, try it out.  That claustrophobia your left hand is feeling might just disappear.  Seriously, give it a try.  Remote hi-hats usually keep good resale value should it simply not work out for you. 

Short of doing that, Billy Ward goes into good detail about positioning one's hi-hat for optimal left hand range in his Big Time DVD.  That's a great watch if you haven't seen it, and he devotes a lot of time to the ergonomic set up of his kit, with utmost comfort being the objective. 

Good luck!

Try the second approach shown in this diagram, which doesn't require your left stick to be under your right:

(http://www.keithcronin.com/drumstuff/hihat_sticking.gif)

Short thread, but already a solid gold one. 

I have mine set up kind of like the second diagram in Mr. A's picture.

I use the Gibraltar Ultra-Adjust hi-hat stand so that I can keep my feet comfortable, too.

I tend to play style #1 (from Mr. A's pic) more b/c my elbows stay closer to my sides... that makes for a more relaxed posture.  With that in mind, I like to adjust my hats to be ~ 8-12" above my snare.  However, if I need to play a strong back-beat then I move to style #2... but find that this method stresses my muscles more...

I play like in the second picture and had a guy tell me I reminded him of Ringo

My hi-hat is at about the 9:00 position to make room for my rack toms, which are mounted on a tom stand to the left of the bass drum (if you are sitting on your throne).  What this does is puts my right arm closer to my stomach while playing, and also behind and above my left wrist.  As long as my range of motion with my left hand is mostly in my wrist, I have plenty of room for the stick to travel without hitting the right stick playing the hi-hat.

Just another angle to try if you want.

Rick

I was just pondering this same thing today!  Will have to try that alternative playing position posted by Mr A above.  Funny enough what brought it on was the same thing you mentioned too - trying to work on grooving and developing a good feel on the snare.  Some good advice here!

The other solution I've seen is to move the right hand (or hi hat hand) to the very left edge of the hat. The left hand comes under the right but extends far enough in that you can still raise the stick up considerably to get a backbeat without conflicting with the right hand.

I've tried this and occasionally will do it but - couple possible problems.

First is that you need to have a well developed wrist technique to give solid backbeats without using your arm very much. This works OK in low to medium volume but I just don't see how high volume slammers would benefit from it.

Second is it just doesn't 'travel' well. Going from hi hat to snare and back feels awkward to me.

Right now I tend to use the second example Mr. A. gave.

However I am trying to slowly work open handed (Left hand on Hi hat/Right on snare) playing in. This is going very slowly for me and I only break it out on gigs for very simple patterns. I'm trying to work more complex things like Purdie/Porcaro shuffles but....lotsa work.  :P

In using example 2 style, I have had to 'choke up' on the stick more. If I leave the stick at full lenghth, I start to collide or play backbeats far into the drum.

[Sigh]  :-\ work, work work.

Jim

[EDIT: Sorry Rick I should have taken a little time to see your post before I put mine in.]

I set up more like M.A.'s first drawing but hold my sticks like the second photo. I to have been in an ergonomic frame of mind lately.

Wow, I think one of my questions actually started a pretty great thread here. Lots of good advice!

Mr. A! Nice diagram. Somehow it didn't yet occur to me to simply try it that way.  I'll have to give it a shot at my gig this weekend.  


How is that workin' out for ya? I've seen the ads, and they seem like a great thing, but at the expense I'd have to know they're AWESOME before I could spend that dough.

Thanks for all the comments guys!

Z

My response is to try and remember not to start incorporating too much elbow if my hands open up! I do often find that if I say, move my right hand over to the ride, my left hand suddenly starts making a bigger motion. I figure if I can keep my hats volume down, and then keep my snare volume down when I uncross my hands, the restricted space when playing the hi-hats will be inconsequential.

However, when finances permit, I would like to try a centred hi-hat set up.

I have a Yamaha remote HH with 3 ft cable for sale if any one wants to experiment with setting HH at 12 o'clock position.  PM me if interested.

paul

Great thread!  I had the same problem, then moved my HH to Position 2 in Mr. A's diagram.  That solved the problem of the sticks being crossed. 

However, I then noticed that when I brought my snare hand up during my stroke, both wrists were still crossing on the same plane during my stroke. in spite of my sticks no longer crossing.

I realized my solution was a 3 dimensional one.  I raised my HH about 2 inches, bringing the cymbals high enough that my wrists were no longer at the same level. I also found that in doing so I am using more of my larger muscle groups (shoulder and pecs) during play, not just my wrist and forearm which goes a long way in improving my stamina and power.   

Yes, I think that is key to solving the "cross arm" problem.

Actually I don't think that is true, although it certainly makes it more comfortable.

To resolve any "crossing" that happens with the arms/drumsticks, it comes from:

• Centering the Snare drum with the body.
• Not sitting directly behind the Kick drum.
• Setting the first Tom so that it is not directly centered and in front of the Snare drum.
• Bring the HiHat forward and more towards 11 O'Clock position to the Snare drum.

If you play the HiHat with right hand, the HiHat being forward as opposed to the side of the Snare drum, allows you to play the HiHat without having the right stick cross-over the left drumstick ... assuming that the left stick is playing the center of the Snare drum.

Since the sticks aren't crossing, there's no need to raise the HiHat with the exception of comfort and the right stick not coming close to the Snare every time it hits the HiHat.

A good rule of thumb is to have your HiHat 6-inches above the playing surface of the Snare drum. It can be hire, but it is a comfort issue based on each individual's body structure.

What I meant... with the HH much higher than the snare then it becomes moot... at least is does for me.  In other words, my left hand is no longer "constrained" even though my arms are crossed.  I rather like playing in that position b/c it enables my arms & elbows to be "tucked in" close to my sides... a more relaxed posture.  As such, I'm able to play using up to a 3/4 stroke... but if I need a full stroke (left hand verticle) for triple-f levels then I need to use Mr. A's figure 2... but that position causes your arms/elbows to move away from your sides, thereby increasing muscle tension.  Does that make sense?

I understand what you are saying now.

However, when I use position #2 (per Mr. A's diagram), my elbows are still down at my side and I'm totally relaxed; no tension.

I'm going to make a video lesson on this and share it on Drummer Cafe TV so I can demo what I do and what has been working for me for many years ... even without a Remote HiHat.

I set mine up as diagram 2 after reading about it here a long time ago.  I've never looked back.  I also set my double pedal to the outside of the hi-hat pedal which allows the hi-hat better positioning flexability. 

I should also add that although the 12 O'Clock Hi Hat is a very ergonomic idea, I had to forgo that for practical reasons. The main one being that I play in so many situations where the drum set is already there and set up in a conventional matter. If I fell in love with and got used to a custom/remote hi hat solution, I'd have to experience weirdness on these gigs.

I'd like to try it one day but.... maybe when I'm making my second million in my own band. Let the cartage guys worry about it.  8)

Jim

C'mon cavanman, you know you want to!  8)  It is kinda weird playing a "normal" kit after playing hi-hats @ 12:00, but after the first song or so the brain remembers what it was like. 

Added bonus - this set up keeps knuckleheads from wanting to sit in! 

 (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/ryanculberson/CopyofNMM02-29-08Dagnys002.jpg)

That's hilarious to think about!
"Uhm, I wanted to show my stuff, but that hi-hat, uh... better not."

I find this thread important, especially now that I have to cover Iron Maiden's "Wrathchild". No fill or chop too hard, but I can't keep up with the right arm on straight eights like on the song, so I need to do everything I can to improve my right arm's usability and enhance my left arm's supposed loudness.

Looking forward to the Cafe video, Mr. A's 11 o' clock method seems a little unfeasible to me at the moment. Feels like I would end up neglecting the floor tom's easy use and I can't see how I'd get myself and the hardware in that position in the first place.

You da man, Bart! Can't wait to see that video. 

I think after this weekend's gigs (the last booked for a good month or so due to my son's not-so-distant birth) I'm going to re-arrange my setup.  Start with the hats, snare and ride placement and then move on from there.

Back inthe day I developed endurance and groove speed by playing my 33 1/3 records on 45 speed.  Not sure what kids are doing now-a-days...

I wouldn't say it's the ultimate hi-hat stand or anything crazy like that.  I posted a review on this page (http://www.drummercafe.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,19974.0).

I've always been fairly interested in new hardware stuff, so right now I've got the Gibraltar Catapult pedal, Ultra-Adjust hi-hat and their tubular snare and cymbal stands.

I used to have one of the Mapex Janus Transmission hi-hat / double bass set ups.

It's not the best hi-hat stand I've owned in terms of ordinary workings (my DW 5000 felt sturdier and smoother for example) but it's the only one I've ever tried that gave me this comfortable placement.

I haven't ever tried a remote hi-hat, but this was cheaper and all I needed and it definitely fills my needs.

I have my hi-hats set up at the 11 o'clock position like the second set up in Mr. A's diagram. Since doing that, I also started putting my slave pedal of my bass drum pedal on the left side of my hi-hat pedal. I use a normal hi-hat stand and the connecting rod of the bass drum pedal goes over the hi-hat pedal towards the top of it. It might sound like it would get in the way but I have never once had a problem with it. It actually puts my feet the distance apart I like when playing double bass. I love the set up. No more crossed arms and no more reaching a huge gap to play my hi-hats with a traditional double pedal set up.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but with Mr.A's method, wouldnt the snare stand legs be in the way of the high-hat pedal...at least for comfortably keeping the foot on it?  Also, I use a double pedal, so that is something else that may get in the way right??

No, not necessarily, but then again it depends on your hardware and body size.  ;)

Hang loose ... I finished a video which I entitled "Ergonomic HiHat Placement (http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/193/19/)" which will air next week on Drummer Cafe TV (http://www.drummercafe.tv). The video is over 15-minutes long and I demonstrate how to set-up your kit, piece by piece, to get the most relaxed placement of the Kick, Snare, HiHat and Mounted Tom. I demo the 11 O'Clock HiHat position as well as the 12 O'Clock HiHat position using a standard HiHat stand and Remote Cable HiHat respectively. There's also a few aerial shots.

Not a problem for me. I'm not using a double pedal in this photo, but as you can see, there's room for one.

(http://www.keithcronin.com/drumkits/aerial_kit.jpg)

(If the photo is resized by the Cafe software, you can also see it here):

http://www.keithcronin.com/drumkits/aerial_kit.jpg

FWIW: I was just watching Billy Ward's Voices in My Head DVD. Billy dances across his hi hat from say, 10:00 o'clock to 11:00 clock, arriving at 11:00 clock for back beats. It's actually a very cool way to work this issue. Although this is still using the 11:00 clock method, there's a natural flow to the way his hands are working. Billy is a very involved hi hat user, incorporating all kinds of color and dynamic ideas with footwork, hands and different striking implements.

BTW: VIMH is a great instructional DVD. I noticed him doing this in the sections where he explains what he's doing on the the CD included with the video.

Jim

Okay, I've added my video, "Ergonomic HiHat Placement", to this weeks episode of Drummer Cafe TV. I discuss, show and demonstrate the 11 and 122 O'clock HiHat positions using a standard HiHat stand and Remote Cable HiHat respectively. I wouldn't say I was completely thorough, but I believe I covered the basic concept(s).

Bart, excellent video! Really puts everything together ergonomically. I especially enjoyed the few aerial shots.

Big thanks to you, Bart!  ;D

Z

Mr. A, you just made made my day. I use a single pedal and have been putting my hat in that same spot for many years. Thanks for showing that picture.  ;)

If you missed the DCTV episode that featured my Ergonomic HiHat Placement (http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/193/19/) segment, it's now available as a 5-Minute Lesson. Included in the lesson is a complete description of my approach, photos, and the supplemental video.

View it here:
http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/193/19/ (http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/193/19/)

Only registered members of the Drummer Cafe will be able to view this complete lesson.

Thanks Bart and Mr. A.

I have been playing Mr. A's style the past few months and I have to admit it has really turned alot of things around for me; better posture, more power and more room for moeller.

One drag is you can really make some pain if you clock your right hand with the left stick- jeez a few times of that and I was about ready to pack it in.  My right hand is also close to my left crash so I have to be careful.

But that's it- a great playing technique.

Just an FYI ... there's a slight difference in what I'm suggesting versus what Mr. A is suggesting.

If I understand correctly, Keith is referencing more about where you play on the HiHat, so that your sticks don't cross. The HiHat stand can still remain around the 9/10 O'clock position. This works very well and is definitely something I approve of doing.

What I'm suggesting is more about where you place your HiHat stand, which allows you to play with the left foot forward on the HiHat pedal AND play on the HiHat without having your sticks cross.

Both work ... so you have to find the method that works best for you. Obviously I like and use what I'm suggesting, and I feel a lot more comfortable because both of my feet are facing forward, as opposed to the left foot facing off to the side ... which varies a lot between individuals.

I'm trying my best to follow a sort of mixture of both presented approaches, where you play and where you place as Bart just wrote, but I'm not getting any space for my left bass pedal when I get the hi hat and snare done alone first.
Sadly it's not the kind I can put to the left of the hi hat pedal, which is something that one day I'd like to try.

Hey Fellow Drummers,

Cool forum, 1st time here.

When I started playing the drum set I assumed the hi-hat went in the 9 o'clock position, but this did not make sense to me because for me it seemed like the rest of my set was too far away when I was playing the hats. Just starting out at the time it was a big leap to go from the hats to the toms. So just of of sure comfort I started staging my hi-hat in the 10:30/11 o'clock position and that did the trick. For me it seems more natural to have everything relatively in front of you.

I was glad to see the Bill Ward DVD where he covers this and plays the same way. I thought I was out-of-step with the rest of drumming community until I seen this DVD. I do like my hats low and close to the snare so the Bill Ward technique of angeling your right hand out like in the 2nd diagram perfect for me.

Also for more leg room you might try a 13" snare. With a deep 13" and some tuning and proper heads you can make it sound like your 14". You would be surprised how much more room 1" gives you.

Hi 1tt.

I like your name  :)

Definitely have been considering a 13" snare drum for my next kit.  I have a 12 already but you can guess how I feel about that as a main snare drum  ::)

Great video, Bart. I gotta start watching more of those!

I'm going to give this (trading hi hat and tom positions) a try, since 99.9999999% of my playing in my current band involves snare, kick and hi hat. I'm still a little concerned about going around the toms but I'm still going to give it a shot.

Just ordered one of these:

(http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/1/0/7/537107.jpg)

I'll let everyone know how it goes. See you on the other side....

after watching Bart's video and seeing Ryno's and Steve R's hats I'm thinking 12 or 13" hats would be the "ticket".

I'm really happy tho' with just moving the right hand off kilter from being directly over the left stick- however one manages to do that.  FWIW I have a dbl pedal also and a high hat with legs that swivel.  I only move the kick and toms slightly to my right and have been prefering this setup to the toms being centrally located, next the ride, then the floor tom.  But I can play it both ways.

Good thread.

The Remote Cable HiHat sure comes in handy when trying to deal with a Double Kick Pedal. You can always place the HiHat's pedal right where you need it, no matter how uncooperative your Double Kick Pedal may be.

When I'm using a standard HiHat stand, my DW Double Pedal was able to be placed on either side of the HiHat pedal. It sometimes took some doing to get it just right ... feel wise that is. If you have a HiHat stand that swivels, it sure is a lot easier to adjust it all.

When I went back to using acoustic drums my first snare was a 13". It's the only snare I've got and now that I have a 14" Vistalite on order, I'm actually a little bit nervous about the 14. I don't know how well it'll fit me,  if it'll sound right to me, etc. I do love the sound of my 13x6.5. Although sometimes I wish I'd gotten something shallower. I'd even consider a 12" snare but I can't imagine the cross stick being very practical for some reason (it's a little awkward on the 13" as it is).

Also, Gavin Harrison seems to make great use of what looks like it could be either a 12 or 13 snare drum. I loved whatever that snare drum was in his 19 days video shown here on the cafe earlier.

  I am sure many of you have checked out Bart's video by now. On "my" never ending quest for being comfortable and " economy of motion - like", I actually gave up using my 8 and 10 inch tom on the left, moved the hat and took the 12 and 13 off the mount on the kick and moved them to the double tom stand (from 8 and 10) and placed them to the right of the kick. Got the hat where it feels good now and also moved my ride right in front of the snare  at 12 o'clock to the left of the kick.

  One other thing that was a revelation for me and some may want to revisit the video, the angle of Bart's snare. Not really the "angle" but the direction of the slope. I have always had mine sloping downwards TOWARDS me. Bart shows his sloping AWAY towards the "front". At rehearsal yesterday I rearranged mine and minimally corrected the height. What it affords me to do is maintain the height I like but now allows my legs not to graze the underside of the snare.

  Sure I could have corrected the "contact" in many other ways. But the fact that the bottom edge closet to me is now "higher" allowed me to basically keep everything else with regards to the snare the same. My distance behind it, the angle of legs and my height above it namely.

  Little things mean alot.... ;)

Has anyone tried the Ultra Adjust HH by Gibraltor?

http://www.gibraltarhardware.com/?fa=detail&mid=2110&sid=549&cid=27# (http://www.gibraltarhardware.com/?fa=detail&mid=2110&sid=549&cid=27#)

It looks like it would solve some of the issue. I wonder if it feels more like a cable pedal or a traditional HH?

I'd like to know as well. I was going to order it, but I had some financial issues (hello...April 15th) to take care of and had to put it off.

It would seem like the perfect compromise for someone like me who wants to try this new hi-hat position, but isn't quite ready for a remote setup just yet. Sure would like to read a review of it from someone here before buying it.

What I HAVE done is to move my hi-hat as far right as it can go. Even to the point of my hi-hat pedal being to the RIGHT of my double bass pedal. Makes the double pedal harder to play because it's wrapped around the hi-hat pedal now, but I only play it on 3 or 4 songs, so no big deal.

Just having the hi-hat in this new position has really wetted my appetite to see what it's like to go all the way - and have the hi-hat at 12 o'clock.

I have one and posted a review in the Gear section - Gear Reviews (By Members) (http://www.drummercafe.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,19974.msg262724#msg262724).  If you have any other specific questions about it, PM me and I'll try to add on to the review.

Ryan, thanks for that review.  In your experience, does the Gibraltar hi-hat allow for 12:00 positioning of the hi-hats?  I'm only going by pictures... never seen one in person.   

I don't have mine quite to the 12 o'clock position, but I'll give it a shot when I get home and post the results.

Here's how I normally have it.  The Hot Rods are pointed in the 12 o'clock position.  I have the assembly from the hi-hat stand pointed in roughly a 45 degree angle up and to the right and it runs pretty much parallel to the floor.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/tsefardayah/SA400400.jpg)
This is with the assembly pointing straight to the right (3 o'clock) but still parallel to the floor.  I had to move the pedals together a little bit more and I moved the snare closer to my bass pedal.  Unfortunately, the Hot Rods aren't quite in the 12 o'clock position in this picture.  I must have rotated the snare slightly and didn't realize it.  This is about as far over as it conveniently can come.  And note you can't really change the height very much.  If you do, you lose some of the reach.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/tsefardayah/SA400401.jpg)
I don't really want it this far over, it fits pretty well in its normal spot and lets me put the tom and ride in convenient places as well.

Thanks Ryan for the detailed pictures and reply.  Your setup looks nice and comfy.  Looks like a great compromise between a regular hi-hat stand and a remote. 

Yes, thanks a LOT for the review and especially the pics, Ryan. That helps a lot.

No problem, guys.

Many thanks to Bart for the video.

I play double bass, and curently I use the 9:00 position, with my hats quite high to make more space for the left hand, and I put а splash to the 12:00 position (between the HH and the first mounted tom). I don't really feel uncomfortable or like I have not enough space for the left hand; however, when I want to play open-handed, my left elbow goes way backwards into some unnatural position.

Pictures are here (http://drummer.org.ua/forum/download.php?id=3691) and here (http://drummer.org.ua/forum/download.php?id=3689) (sorry, you can't see pedals there, so I tell you - the slave BD pedal is to the right of the HH pedal).

I was considering trying the Gibraltar thing, but as far as it is actually a cable-driven HH on a stand, now I consider buying a "normal" remote HH which I'll put on a stand more to 11:00, while my splashes will go more to 9:00 (thanks Bart, you are right - I use HH more often than splashes :) )

Andy Gone ... glad you liked the video; thanks.

Sounds like you've done well to adapt by placing your HiHats high while at the 9 O'clock position. Playing double bass definitely creates whole different set of challenges.

I do think its good to experiment from time to time ... seeing if you can discover a new set-up that will allow you to be even more relaxed and/or get around the set-up with greater ease.

Yep. Personally I prefer not to go too astray from traditional setup, because mainly I play at gigs with other bands (using the same rented kit), so I would like to have minimum deviations to shorten the time I need to prepare after previous band.

This is why I'll definitely won't go Danny Carey HH things (http://www.paiste.com/artists/images/special/carey_d_720-500.jpg) - just because this will mess up the mic setup at any gig (at least I won't try it before I become a world rock star :D)

However, experiments with 6 or 10 inch displacement of HH from its traditional place is something really worth trying, and I really appreciate you gave me a kick to think about it ;D, because before I did not think it can really make difference that much.

I had no idea Danny Carey used a symmetric style setup.  Right on!  I certainly would never go back to the traditional setup.  EVER!  My left hand would not allow it.  Hehehe...

I play a double bass pedal kit. Last week I tried to move my HH around to a more central location... and ITS HARD with a double pedal. Any suggestions (other than buying non-traditional HH stands)?
I find if I put my slave pedal to the left of the HH, its squishes the HH way too close to the snare and if I put the HH kind of back at like 11, the pedal is hard to get to comfortably.

Same problem. I tried to, and ended up with the setup I've described above. And I don't believe it is possible to do the subj comfortably with double pedal and standard HH stand - you will have to try the Gibraltar thing at least.