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What drummer springs to mind in terms of artistic expression of an abstract quality?  I’m not thinking of technique except as it functions as a vehicle for taking your mind on an imaginative journey.  Which jazz drummer is the deepest artist that you can think of.  Elvin?  Tony?  DeJohnette?  Can you recommend specific recordings of artistic genius?

I absolutely can't cite the Most artistic.  All I'd do is cite
a person among many who are truly artistic.

My latest *discovery* is - Jeff Ballard - Brad Mehldau drummer.
I have their Live CD, and it's just filled with great, very artistic
playing all around.

You're right.  I modified the post to remove requests for opinions regarding the "most" artistic drummer.  I'll check out Jeff Ballard.  Thanks!

It's so subjective.
And I'd hate to see this thread become another excuse to separate one type of drummer from another.  :-\
However....
One drummer I very much admire in the jazz genre is Jack De Johnette.
He has solo albums on the ECM label where he plays the drums and piano.
The two jazz drummers fans most often talk about are Tony Williams and Elvin Jones. It does seem they broke a lot of new ground in their day.

Essential Jazz Albums (http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/3/29/) is a list of great albums with great jazz drummers on it. Every one of them are artistic and special with what they do.

Here's a list of Top Drumming Albums In History (http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/108/29/); find the jazz drummers and check out these albums.

As noted above, there are many for many different reasons.

If I had to name one that seems to fit what you are asking for, DeJohnette always springs to mind as someone whose drumming really challenges traditional concepts of time. Check out his playing on Inside Out with Jarrett and Peacock. They scrapped the standards at a live gig and just played a "free" set. Jack's drumming is just alive on that one.

Roy Haynes

There are so many...

DeJohnette, Paul Motian, Sunny Murray, Han Bennink, Jeff Ballard, Brian Blade, Jeff "Tain" Watts, Roy Haynes, Ed Blackwell, Ralph Peterson - those are all guys that I've listened to for a conceptual kick in the pants...

But then again there's nothing more artistic than Ed Thigpen laying it down with some brushes. So "inside" that it's transcendent. Only the 'correct' notes, every time. That's sublime...

There are so many...

as chris notes, it's totally subjective. and i would argue that no one is the 'most' anything. but, in jazz, there are so many drummers who have recorded so many uniquely artistic moments.

of course, jack, elvin and tony may come immediately to mind. they are/were leaders and composers, as well as time keepers. what a legacy they have all created! i had the opportunity to interview elvin and tony back during my many years as a newspaper jazz critic. (very prickly guys, too!!!!!)

i think of max roach, who i saw perform on several occasions in his later years, including his always amazing demonstration of just how much could be done with a hihat and only a hihat. max practically invented bebop drumming. is that artistic enough? ;)

i think of art blakey, whose press rolls were for the ages.

grady tate is another whose work is everywhere, but without the high profile. listen to him on the stan getz album, 'sweet rain.' that is artistry, indeed.

i think of sonny greer, duke's drummer for almost 30 years. his kit, from the 30s, is amazing, so ahead of its time.. and his sound was symphonic.

you can go on and on about artistic jazz drummers....but i wont. 8)

To be honest, I think any drummer who can play Jazz well is very artistic. That may be because I can't play Jazz very well at all, but I just find it amazing at what kind of things that drummers in the Jazz/Swing genre do.

As far as just picking one, the first ones that come to my mind are the Jazz legends, such as Buddy Rich and Tony Williams.

I've gotta second the note for Roy Haynes -- I just love his playing. Interesting even when I've heard it for the ten thousandth time. (I think that's how many times I've listened to We Three before).

There are the obvious names -- Art Blakey, Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Art Taylor, Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe, etc etc... but I think to listen to jazz just for the drums is missing the point. Yeah, there's some tremendous, unbelievable talent there -- listening to Tony's ride cymbal or Elvin's concept of time is just amazing. But there's so much going on and I personally think it's far more interesting to find those recordings where the whole band takes off into the stratosphere.

I'm not trying to do the jazz snob thing and say, "you're listening to it wrong". Because I know by whatever standard of the moment someone wants to embrace, I'm listening to it wrong. All I know is, these guys -- not just the drummers -- could PLAY.. and the dude hitting stuff with sticks is doing some hip stuff, but then again, so were Miles and Coltrane.

Really.. there's so much stuff out there. Bart's list is a great start. If you need four albums to blow you away, here are the ones that did it for me:
- "Four" & More - Miles Davis (Tony Williams). You will appreciate this much more if you know Kind Of Blue well.
- We Three - Roy Haynes. Adventurous. Playful. Smooth.  Keeps me coming back for more.
- Free For All - Art Blakey. I thought I got Art, then a friend dropped this one on me and it blew my mind. Moanin:With The Beatles :: Free For All:Sgt. Pepper's.
- Live At Town Hall - Thelonious Monk (Art Taylor) -- Taylor just kills it.

Chonson, you make a good point about embracing the genre as a collective artform. In defense of the OP a bit though, understanding a type of music we are somewhat new to usually starts by latching on to what is familiar first. I know when I started playing jazz my favorite albums were the ones with my favorite drummers. Hell, I'd listen to Chick Corea's Now He Sings... over and over just to hear Roy's ride.

But yeah. You make a good point to keep in mind.

Man, I got to hang with Elvin for a week and I had just the opposite experience. He was one of the most open, warm, involved human beings I've ever met. This was at a 3 week master class he was doing down in Florida, mostly drummers, but the last week he was looking for some rhythm section players and I went down. I was a young sprout and didn't really practice upright much (still doubling on electric bass) and here I was playing with Elvin and a bunch of his students about 8 hours a day. The second day into it I had these HUGE blood blisters on my right hand. Now I didn't say anything, being kind of embarrassed and all, but apparently Elvin noticed and, when we all reconvened for the afternoon session, he comes up to me with a jar of Mentholatum and grabs my hand and starts rubbing this stuff into the blisters, telling me that stuff like this used to happen with Jimmy when they were doing long tours and this helped keep the skin soft so the blisters wouldn't break too early and you had a chance to get some callous going under them and that the menthol helped take some of the pain away.
Now here's this guy who's just a giant in this music and he's just so human...

There are a LOT of memories like that from that week that I'll carry till I die.

all the legends [tony, buddy, billy c., jack, elvin, philly jo, etc] became legends for a reason. they added new things to the vocabulary of drumming and language of jazz. so i love all those guys, but with the exception of jack, tony and some billy c., i haven't studied all the greats so extensively. my only gripe with jack is that his (latter-day) groove is not always so deep. but that's okay; he's more of a free player, which is his strength and which no one can imitate.

but when i think of the newer players [even though they've been playing for well over 2 decades], i always go to tain watts and terri lyne carrington, because to me they've raised the bar on multiple levels--technique, musicality, improvisational inspiration/brilliance, "chops" [i know, i know], overall ferocity on the kit and deep knowledge of jazz tradition.

tain's last album with branford marsalis, 'braggtown', goes to new musical depths. i listen to it at least twice a week. tunes like 'blackzilla', 'hope' and 'fate' showcase tain in all his glory, from biting, provocative out-there stuff to soulful, introspective 'ballads.' tain gets deep, deep, deep into the melody, and re-states it in very original, unexpected ways. i also love his work on 'crazy people music.'

i went to check him out i think in january, for this semi-solo performance he gave at a small club in nyc. it was in part a tribute to max roach, whom tain idolizes. he did 'the drum also waltzes' intro [and joked about how he only knows 3 things from roach's vocabulary], then took it way, way out. then he did a drum/piano duet with this woman who was sitting in the audience [am totally spacing on her name], who had a real cecil taylor-like quality to her, so that got real out-there, too. then he did some quasi-rap and more 'inside' modern/blues/rap/spoken word jazz stuff with a few fellas from his ebonix group that rocked. the whole thing went on just over 3 hours and i was rapt the whole time. i've got a tiny bit of video footage that maybe i'll get on here at some point. [i'm not big on bootlegging stuff, so i only took a wee bit, for my own indulgence]. there were only like 10 people (!) there so i was able to chit-chat with him. very sweet man.


terri lyne has been a prodigy like forever, and the big thing that always stands out to me about her is her musical intuition. talk about being in the moment, man. she's at that level where she anticipates what another player is going to say, and when she responds to other players, she does so in very articulate, and often very surprising ways. she also has the sickest singles--they may even be faster than tony's. she lays in blazing 64th notes at every turn, and it never sounds contrived or out of place. amazing snare/foot/hi-hat combos, too.

i love her playing on the 'structure' cd with jimmy haslip and greg osby. one tune in particular, 'fire'--says it all. she opens it up with a blazing solo and goes into a really uptempo off-beat jazz ride/bass drum pattern that makes way for the tune. i have to hit rewind everytime i hear that, just to hear the intro. THAT deserves to go into a 'best drum intro tunes' biography, for sure. it's on her myspace page, so you should check that out.

i also like a lot of her work (namely 'flat-out') with john scofield, even though his tone occasionally drives me frickin' insane, cornelius kreustch [few tunes on 'drop kick'], and she's toured extensively with wayne shorter and herbie hancock, which i'm so sorry i never got to see. also haven't gotten that rachel z. album she played on; rachel z. rulez like ozzy, so i'm sure it's kick butt. tlc has a few solo albums, but with the exception of 'jazz is a spirit,' some of them cross over into a smoothy/poppy realm that doesn't really do it for me. she has a haunting voice, though, which is showcased on 'voice and music.' she does a cover of 'ethiopia' on the structure cd that gave me chills.

btw, it's not great form, but i gotta say it: she has totally revamped her image and looks positively ab fab these days. she always had that pretty, demure, almost tomboyish vibe, but now she's let her inner woman come through [without looking trashy] and i think it makes her shine that much more. i am ready to go get my hair and make-up re-done so i can look like her. lol!

so yah--those are the two sometimes lesser-discussed jazzers that float my boat. i love smitty smith, too, but it seems he's been so musically dormant as of late, i can't say nothing. i'd love for him to come to ny and tear it up. gary husband is also a huge hero of mine; amazing player, but i think i love him more so for his emotive and compositional skills--he is a phenomenal drummer and pianist, and to hear his rendition of 'softly as in a morning sunrise'-- playing both instruments--is enough to make you throw down your sticks forever.


i was gonna go on a diatribe regarding the phrase "artistic expression of an abstract quality" but i blabbed too much already. main thought: what once seemed abstract to me doesn't seem so abstract anymore, but very logical.


ok. i am typed-out.



**splat**

Smoggrocks:

Thanks for that great and informative response!  I think I need to hit the record store or Amazon and grab some of the music you recommended!

On edit:  Thanks to all of you who have responded so far!  I'm getting so much out of this thread.  I've been a fan of jazz for nearly 20 years, but now that I'm older (nearly 40), I'm really starting to love jazz.  And once I discover that I love something, I just immerse myself in it.  Interestingly, I can't play jazz drums, and my love of jazz drummers is almost from a non-drummer perspective.  I really have no desire to become a jazz drummer. I'm content just listening to the great jazz drummers within the context of the overall music.  One of the reasons I love jazz is that it makes me think of one of my favorite places in the world — New York.  Great jazz often transports me to Greenwich Village at dusk.  Jazz provokes such a sense of “urban nostalgia” in me.  That probably sounds bizarre, but there it is!

you're welcome, smitty.

i know what you mean about the greenwich village thing. new york or "east coast"-flavored jazz definitely has a vibe all its own. to me, there's a kind of sadness and desperation to it--an urgency. i dig that aspect of it.

as for playing jazz--you don't have to become superbad at it, but learning some "jazz voicings" on the drums might add some flavor to your own playing. not sure what style you play, but if it's rock--well, you probably heard the old adage: jazz took a poop and rock was born. there's underpinnings of jazz in a lot of rock. at the simplest level, i was always surprised at how few of the local rock drummers i used to play alongside would incorporate triplets in their playing. to me, that adds such a great feel to rock music, especially when you mix it with 16ths.

the other thing i love about jazz [now that i'm getting 'up there' myself] is that age and style is not a barrier. you don't have to look superhip or like a model to belong. it's a very embracing music and community. i know some of the younger jazzers are being marketed as hipsters, but when push comes to shove, it's the music that's the focus.


enjoy your musical explorations!

Me too.  The Love is Growing.   

I like listening to music at night, while falling asleep.  I recently *discovered* a jazz channel on cable.  It's all music, though.  No videos, just a picture of the artist, identification of the song and album, and the music.   It has exposed me to a Ton of stuff I haven't heard before.  And honestly, some of it has been - breathtaking.   I'll be half asleep and wake up to something that's practically bringing tears to my eyes it's so beautiful.  I try to make a mental note of the song and artist so that I can chase down the track when I wake up.  Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.   :)

But really - for people who really music, love the arts, and love tasting the joy of improvisation, there's probably nothing sweeter than jazz.

Absolutely!  My straight-ahead rock/surf-punk drumming could use some swing!

God I love jazz. I've begun to realise what an amazing genre of music it is. It's so incredibly personal. You can tell who's who just from their playing/tone/etc. You don't have to read the cover if you've heard the artist enough before. It's great. And there's always a different way of listening to it, so it's hard to get sick of the songs.

On the topic of great jazz players outside of drummers, one person that's always fascinated me, and clutched ferociously at my attention is Herbie Hancock. Yet I can't quite put my finger on why!

The other day I was listening to a Stan Getz song, Lester Left Town. And noticed the really awesome rhythmic quality of the piano and it's relation/reaction with the drums. I can't quite find the words to describe what I mean, but it was really awesome. I'd love to know who played piano and drums on that song because it was on a compilation CD and didn't say.

(I don't know who Stan Getz is because I'm a bit of a jazz noob, so sorry if Stan Getz IS the pianist.)

I have been noticing this recently, too, listening to how Mehldau and Ballard play together.
You can literally hear the conversation at times.  It's incredibly interesting.

I dunno, that might be a subjective call. I'd certainly find it hard to define a 'deep' jazz groove and a not so deep jazz groove.
Maybe I'm not deep enough.  :-[

I just define drummers by two factors, those who are fully committed to the music, and those who aren't. DeJohnette always sounds fully committed to me.......and that's enough.
 :)

Um, that's one factor, by my count. Two categories, perhaps.

(Founder member, CaRP - the Campaign for Real Pedantry)

ANT - not to pick nits, but while Stan may have been playing LESTER LEFT TOWN it's actually a Wayne Shorter tune.


SMOGGY - could it have been Connie Crothers on piano? There's this (http://www.newartistsrecords.com/pages/1001.html) record....

naw, it was an asian woman, very petite; maybe mid 30s-40s at most. i took down her name and can't find the napkin.

chris--if you ever watch jack's instructional vid (i wanna say it's called 'musical expression on the drumkit', but i may be confusing it with another one), you'd see what i mean. in the intro, he does a solo medley where he switches from jazz to rock to funk to reggae. now i suppose that exercise in itself is going to make you shakey, but the funk stuff just wasn't tight, imho. maybe 'groove' wasn't the best word, and i should've specified the genre, but in that funk context, he just wasn't grooving to me. jack grooves, but it's a much freer groove. it's very different from say, gene lake, playing funk. sometimes that tightness is what you need, not freeness.

there's no question jack is committed, but i think he shines most in jazz/freejazz, where there's more room for that openness.

Let me offer up to all you jazz lovers the recommendation for a really great streaming internet jazz station I have been listening to:

www.jazz24.org

Great stuff.   No radio static.  :)   

Crap, now you got me all obsessed. Was it Helen Sung (http://www.helensung.com/)?

I first saw Alan Dawson at a clinic...he sang the melody while he built the solo around it, gave a great idea of how "artistic" he was...it the first time I ever heard someone so melodic live. Also Tony Williams and Elvin Jones for intensity, Louis Bellson and Buddy Rich for chops from a different father.

I really should get that.


I can see what you are saying.
As we were talking about 'artistic jazz drummers' I was focused on that aspect of DeJohnettes playing.
His rock playing and funk grooving is different, but that's Jack.
In whatever genre/context he ticks alot of the 'artsy' boxes IMO.
The way he thinks , the way he plays, the cymbals he's designed, the heads, his kit layout. They are all slightly out of the norm.

I heard a great analogy for Jack's playing once that I'll have to paraphrase. It stated that listening to his time was analogous to watching clothes tumble and fall in a dryer. The speed of the spin might remain constant, but the clothes are going to fall at unexpected times. We're talking about someone who has reached a technical proficiency that allows him to say pretty much whatever he wants on command. I'd be really surprised if he couldn't make us all frown up with a nasty funk still.

You're killin' me lately, Moose...  ;D ;D ;D

Well, like Will Lee says, there's three kind of people in the world, those who can count and those who can't.

hmmmm. hard to say. is helen (asian) american? coz i seem to recall this woman had a rather pronounced accent, and a more common "japanese-sounding" name [takahashi; something along those lines].

the two look very similar, though. 


i've gotta find that napkin, man. i know i have it. probably under a pile of books and laundry...


sir whitten--i acknowledge your thoughts/sentiment. and i also think 'artistic' is definitely subjective!  :D

Well, of Asian heritage, but she's a Muraken and talks Muraken. I HAVE TO STOP this, cause there are just too many folks I don't know (and they just keep on a comin')...

i hear ya. plus it'll throw the whole thread off  ;)


i'll get around to doing laundry eventually. the napkin will be found.

A couple quick thoughts.

1.  Like a few other posters, I've always liked jazz, but have fallen head over heals in love with it in the last couple years.  Must be something about age 40...

2.  I got started buying CDs solely because of drummers like Roach and Tony Williams.  But I quickly became big fans of the other instrumentalists too.  I now have extensive Miles Davis and John Coltrane collections, as well as smaller collections of Clifford Brown, Thelonious Monk, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and many many others. 

3.  As for drummers.  Lately, I just can't get enough Elvin, especially on the later Trane recordings.   :o   I can listen to Tony's ride cymbal alllll day long. 

I know I'm new to the forum...  I just don't understand how nobody mentioned Manu yet....  Manu Katche "Neighbourhood (http://www.amazon.com/Neighbourhood-Manu-Katche/dp/B000A32KJQ)"...  if that's not artistic (and super melodic) drumming, I don't know what else is.  Sound quality it also top notch- it is clearly among my favorite albums of the last decade...

Probably because he's not known for his mainstream jazz grooves.

Labels are problematic.
When someone asks about 'jazz drummers' I guess we all tend to think of the same pigeon hole. Although Manu has played with a few jazz artists (Jan Garbarek in particular), I suppose many people don't label him a 'jazz drummer'.

The last time I saw Manu play was at a PAS convention a few years back. He was playing at an evening concert ... but before he played he gave a little speech (out of frustration) about how he's not viewed as a jazz musician/drummer. He went on to express that he was much more than a rock drummer.

Now, although I dig what I hear on Neighbourhood (http://www.amazon.com/Neighbourhood-Manu-Katche/dp/B000A32KJQ?tag=drummercafe-20&link_code=as3&creative=373489&camp=211189), what I heard the last time, that night at PAS, was a rock drummer playing jazz. The very thing Manu was complaining about was what I heard!

So yes, labels can really be a bad thing; I fight them all the time. I think Man is a wonderfully, fantastic drummer and I don't place any labels on him. But if Manu or anyone else starts using labels, they may or may not like the response they get from others.

When people hear you in one genre for a long time, you really have to able to switch over and play the "new" or "other" genre(s) very, very well ... in such a way that people only hear you as this new genre musician.

I think Steve Smith has done this very well. What I heard when he was with Journey versus what I hear now with Vital Information ... two distinct genres by one drummer.

For Manu, I think Neighbourhood (http://www.amazon.com/Neighbourhood-Manu-Katche/dp/B000A32KJQ?tag=drummercafe-20&link_code=as3&creative=373489&camp=211189) is a step in the right direction if he is wanting to establish himself as being a rock drummer AND a jazz drummer. But a few years prior to this album, all I heard was a rock drummer playing various styles.  8)

I just listened to the two Garbarek albums I have with Manu on.
I would categorize the drumming as more rock than jazz.
In fact one album has a couple of jazzier tunes and I looked for sleevenotes and saw there was a different drummer (Marilyn Mazur).
A few of the Northern European jazz fraternity seem to have taken a shine to Manu though.
 :)

May have been mentioned already, but...I'd like to add a vote in for the late Billy Higgins.

I saw Jeff Hamilton for the first time a couple of months ago....I must say I thought he played extremely artistic.

Not sure I can narrow this down though....there are sooooooo many.

Hannah

Check out David King of The Bad Plus.  The guy is brilliantly creative.

I recommend checkin out Susie Ibarra.  She's involved in a lot of projects in the New York area and she's a phenom player.  I think you can check her out on both susieibarra.com and on vicfirth.com.  Not neccessarily "jazz" music, but what really is "jazz" anyway?

When I see or hear this question, the first person who comes to mind is the great Jeff Hamilton. He is very musical, creative and has great chops. The best Jazz drummer period, IMO.

Yea, Jeff Ballard is a really good jazz artist. another one (who may be less known) is Eric Harland. He's got a bit more afro-neworleans feel to him, but i've seen him live with a couple groups and he does it for me.

When I think of which drummer strikes me as forging new and interesting jazz today, Lewis Nash is at the forefront of my thoughts. I think he takes the best of the 50s/60s combos drummers and makes fantastic new statements. Always tasty, appropriately reserved, and very, very, very musical.

Strange I didn't see a name here in that thread that belong to that very thread, I mean Mr. Joe Morello. How can a guy whose his name is a reference in the genre can be forgotten.

Morello mean artist in his soul, it mean creativity, musicality and humility  ;)

Oh man...I can't believe I forgot to include Joe Morello in my first post.

I first heard about him on Tiger Bill Meligari's website. He said he had the pleasure of studying with Morello as a young man, and he said his technique was absolutely incredible. As usual, I was interested in seeing amazing technique in action. After seeing this video, I knew I had been missing out on a good deal of great drumming up until that point when I found out about him. In case anybody hasn't seen the video I'm talking about, here it is. It's definitely a must see for ANY drummer:

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/joemorello1961.html

Check out Steve Gadd's performance on Chick Corea's album "Three Quartets".  There's some artistic chops flying around there.

Great clip.  Filmed back in the days before Ludwig (or any other drum company) figured out how to make bass drum spurs that prevented creep.  :)

I havent listened to enough to even make a comment. Ive heard snippets of various jazz guys. I remember driving home late one night and was in a rare jazz mood so i was tuned into a station. The drummer really caught my ear more than most and i havent forgotten it. His name was Kenny Clarke and i hope i spelled his name right?. His playing and sound just hit me.

Klook was one of the pioneers of bebop. A true legend.