DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

This is sort of an open letter to Bart so folks can chime in if they think there's any merit in this.

I'd like to see a section on the Cafe similar to the "Featured Musicians" where influentials drummers can have a bio, and a detailed chronological discography.  I know Drummerworld has bios, photos, etc., but I have a hard time finding detailed discographies on a lot of guys all in one place. 

For example, many of us here love Tony Williams and seek out his recordings.  We know he's on many great Miles Davis CD's as well as his Lifetime band after that.  But did you know he appears on many many side projects while he was with Miles lie Herbie Hancock and Eric Dolphy?  He also did a lot of other projects after Miles.  I only know of some of them specifically and I stumble across others accidentally all the time.  I grant that many players would be incredibly difficult to list everything they've done, but certainly we could collectively put together a decent starting place. 

Just a few names that I'd like to see:  Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Max Roach, Billy Cobham, Roy Haynes, Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa.  You'd be surprised on how many different places these guys turn up! 

At the very least, I'd like to see us submit small lists of jazz CD's so Bart can put together a more detailed Jazz listening guide. 

Any thoughts?

I use the Amazon music search function.
I just came up with 300+ hits searching 'Tony Williams':
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=tony+williams&x=12&y=18

Also don't forget All Music Guide (www.allmusicguide.com) - pretty close to every credit of everybody ever recorded... it's really great!  :-)

There's a page most every artist, group, sideman, album and song - all cross-linked to each other.  To again use Tony - from his page there's a bio, his discography as an artist, and his credits as a sideman -

http://www.allmusicguide.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fifexqy5ldfe~T2

I'm for any and all new jazz resources.

Over the years, Jazz has become my most cherished music.

I'm pretty sure it's what's played in heaven.    ;D

[Last weekend, I was at the NY TAP 08 Beer Festival.
 It was held at a ski resort, with many dozens - maybe hundreds -
 of breweries tapping their beer - to a large crowd of enthusiastic,
 peaceful, funny, cool people. 
 While we sampled a bazillion beers together, we were also treated
 to very good food and Awesome Live Jazz, all under the sunshine of a beautiful day. 
 I told my friends that I was sure this was what heaven was like.]
 :)

Hi guys, thanks for chiming in.

I typically use Amazon for my searches and I've found a ton of great stuff.  It's just time consuming and you have to take a few tangents to find some things on accident.  Plus, you rarely get a complete listing on many artists.  I'd like to know what the out-of-print titles are too.  You may find them on vinyl somewhere! 

I've not seen the allmusic site before.  The Tony Williams discography only lists his solo projects, but the background and credits tabs give more info.  Unfortunately, it also lists things where there must be other "Tony's" because there's listings from the year he was born.  I do like that you can click on albums and see more info etc. 

What I'd love to have available is a complete chronological list of each recording with the recording date and original release date, who's on it, and a brief description.  Links to a detailed page about the album would be fantastic.  I'm particularly fasinated by seeing what these guys do in a single year.  Roach recorded a whole bunch of albums with several artists in 1955-56.  Elvin and Tony both did the same thing around 1964 or so.  It may be a lot to ask for, but I'm sure it will be out there eventually.  Even if it was a subscription site, I'd be all over it. 

Sounds like a massive job.
For example, Steve Gadd's AllMusic listing goes on forever!

Maybe an idea for your own website project?  ;)

I'm all for doing something like this ... it's just a matter of available time.

If anyone wants to help with this project, I'd be happy to speak with you further. I'm (very slowly) working on a few things like this, so let's talk about it more.

Certainly it would be nice to have pages here at the Drummer Cafe where people could find these albums and have links to Amazon for online purchases. I won't lie ... it would help the Drummer Cafe financially to provide this to our members and guests.  8)

I guess a small start would be to add discography's and Amazon links for the 'Featured Musicians'.

That's already taken place for the most part, or is underway.

We also need a certain someone to help me get their goodies on the Drummer Cafe. (hint, hint Chris).  ;D

Bermuda and David Crigger's discographies are listed and linked already. Keith's is listed and linked with those albums that are available online. I haven't done Billy Ward's discography but I have a link to his page on his website.

Cool.  I'd be happy to submit database type information on my meager collection.  We would need to post a thread of who's doing what so people don't duplicate efforts. 

Doing the Amazon link would be great.  Of course, for many of these guys, finding some of their lesser known gems can be troublesome, even on Amazon.  Do you know how hard it is to find "Gretsch Drum Night at Birdland"?  Amazon doesn't carry it except through their extended network.  And I've never seen it for less than $60! 

That can be a problem - but in this case only the 1st two credits - for producer Tony Williams are incorrect - all the other early Tony listings are albums containing material from a spread of many years. The Miles/Gil Evans collection - 1957 & 1968 - Tony obviously played n the later material.

As for the Discography versus Credits pages - the former is for the artist's project as leader and the latter for sideman work.

Not that there aren't problems with some of All Music Guide (I've been trying to get David Crigger the drummer's page - me - separated from Dave Crigger the bass player's page - not me - forever) but considering the depth and breadth of the material covered - it's an astounding resource IMO (owned by Amazon if I'm not mistaken)

I didn't check the Elvin/Tony pages, but I did the 1955-56 Max Roach stuff - and 95% of what you're wishing for is right there  - 10 whole pages of Max sideman links.  Most of the album pages have full sideman listings, session dates, often release dates more specific than the year, label ID info, and a review.

Not that I don't think what Bart is suggesting - in a more drummer specific sort of way - might not be real useful. Much like his Essential lists are - better starting places. But to try to do something comprehensive - well that's going to take some pretty heavy lifting, even just to focus on drummers. Heavy lifting that IMO AMG's already done, and Amazon thankfully has paid for.

Anyway, my 2 cents...

David

I humbly agree.

Anyway, part of life's journey is to slowly discover art (music) going from one piece linked to another. In the days before the web, it was normal to browse record stores and take a punt on an obscure album because someone you knew, like Billy Cobham, had a credit for playing tambourine on one cut.
OK, often you were disappointed, but the times you hit gold were thrilling.
I know this is no consolation.
I like your idea and the quest for more information is good, I just think it's too much for a site like this and I agree with David, there are other sites with more or less what you seek.

Hi David and Chris,

Thanks again for your thoughts.  As I read through this over several days I have to admit that my attitude seems to be of the I want it all and I want it all fast and easy.  I guess I haven't grown up yet!  I also admit that some of my "research" and the resultant search for that specific gem has been rather fun! 

So in short, I agree that the current resources can do the job, especially when taking the time to sort it out and look through it all.  It would definitely be a huge job for the Cafe, even if limited to a handful of drumming icons.  But, I'm still for soliciting for additions to the essential listening lists.  Maybe we can vote on the top 100 for Rock, Jazz, Fusion, Pop etc.? 

I like the idea; I guess my only issue is information accuracy and as others pointed out, the time involved. research and fact-checking is a lot of work, and sometimes after you think you've found your source, it turns out to not be accurate.

as I have to do a lot of this type of stuff at work, I know I would not have the energy to do it in my downtime.

I like allmusic, and just checking the artists' individual websites. jazzcorner had a lot of promise when it first launched, but it doesn't seem they've kept up on their artists archive.

another roundabout way of finding stuff is kind of like what chris w. mentioned--go to one artist and find another by default. I found a lot of cool stuff from going to the john abercrombie website.


I have that cd! bought it for 5 bux; don't recall where. I can burn a copy for you...unless you were hoping for it on vinyl. jazzlegends has it for $15 (on cd).

SMOGGY I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I've never heard of Jazzlegends.com until now!  Gretsch Drum Night is right on their front page and I ordered it on the spot without even looking at the rest of the site!  Woo-hoo!  That's what I'm talking about people!  A little information sharing!

FWIW, Wikipedia has a decent discography on Tony Williams and some other drummers.

Since you used the wiki word...

As already stated, there are other sites that are good resources for this info. And taking on a job like this would be large. If Bart or someone else took it on, I would recommend using a wiki based model, where everyone can add content. The membership here is so well behaved I can't imagine that being a problem. But if it was it could be limited to vip members. I like the wiki model we have used it bunch at some of my clients for collaborating on designs.

just what occurred to me as I read this thread.

I use wikispaces (below) alot for work and church. It would be fun to do a DC collaborative project.

www.wikispaces.com (http://www.wikispaces.com)