DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

I'm sitting here listening to Elvin absolutely kill with Coltrane on A Love Supreme and I'm thinking I know nothing about how to swing. That comes as no surprise, because I've had other musicians tell me this to me in no uncertain words, but I never realized how much I didn't know until now.

Listen to "Resolution." Elvin's laying waaaaay back ... more like reclining! It feels sooooo good, though. I want to know how to develop this, if there's some kind of thought process that helped any of you, or even more listening suggestions. I'm more used to guys like Tony, who would play right on top -- even play straight 8s as kind of a hip ride to break things up. Any other good Elvin suggestions? Someone else?

     I think it's more of a feel rather than something you can develop academicly . Interesting you should bring that up . This year my drum corp is doing a couple Chuck
Mangeoni (sp) numbers , Man of La Mancha and Land of Make Believe .  La Mancha has a great jazz feel with swung eight notes . Many of the old time straight up snare drummers are having a hell of a time with the thing .  Flat flam ride patterns and swung eights are just not in there vocabulary. I'm new to this drum corp scene so I've been the teacher for a change helping guys out with this stuff .  8)

I'm by no means a great jazz player but I seem to have more success at it if I:

1.) Listen Listen Listen
2.) Play with cats that can swing well- they will know where the one is when you get outside and keep the groove happening- you will be able to feed off of it.
3.) Practice swing, play swing, eat swing, etc.
4.) Tune my drums accordingly.  I don't swing as well on my kit when they are in rock mode as when they are in jazz mode for some reason.  I like I looser snare bed, ringy, preferably wood snare for jazz, dry cymbals and higher tunings- no dampening
5.) You aren't ever going to sound like Elvin IMHO but you could improve at swing style drumming.
6.)  Finger bounce technique on the ride...keep it light...jazz is a different animal than rock (duh)...but I have to be conscience of that fact.  Since I'm not great at either I fuse the two styles with my strongest techniques and don't worry about it.   Work in the jazz standard method books to develop syncopated figures.
Elvin can be really tough to figure out by just listening.  Maybe find a video.  Those kick drum syncopations I remember from that cd are just awesome.  The cd is a masterpiece anyways.

Good luck...you will become an authentic jazzer for sure...just don't get frustrated.  It sorta happens naturally I think if you stay focused and play jazz a lot.  Don't be like me and get sidetracked all the time...it keeps me from sounding "authentic".

The only thing I can add to this subject is something that often gets overlooked - in addition to studying those drummers whose work you want to learn from, also study the drummers that they learned from, or who influenced them.  You're dealing with the Elvin/Coltrane work of the 60s - go back to the drummers of the 50s (Blakey, Cobb, Clarke, Philly Joe Jones, et al), and of the 40s (Jo Jones, et al), and go back to the early days of jazz, the Zutty Singletons and Baby Dodds.

The basic idea is that if these drummers influenced the person you're studying (in this case, Elvin), that perhaps they might have a similar influence on your playing.

(I'm not sure how much the study of Baby Dodds will help you to graft some of that "Elvin Swing" onto your own playing, but find out who Elvin views as his influences - it must be in interviews somewhere.)  

I'm thinking about which recordings to suggest, I'll get back to you on this one.  However, I will suggest this much to you.  I think the only way you will learn how to swing is to listen to as much music as possible.  Listen to Papa Jo, Jimmy Cobb, Elvin, Roy, Max, Buddy, Tony, Gene, Art, Joe Morello.  These are the men that will show you how to swing.  

I know you know all of this, but I thought I'd say it anyway.  I'm sure you're already swingin.  We all doubt ourselves when we listen to a good recording of Elvin, or any of those guys.  

So my last piece of advice is:  Keep on Swinging!!

OK, I lied.  There's something else.

Don't just listen to the great drummers of jazz - immerse yourself in ALL the greats, from Louis Armstrong, to the Basie band, to Diz and Bird, to Coltrane, etc., etc., etc. (I'm obviously leaving out many, many significant musicians).  Memorize solos by musicians whose sense of swing you admire/enjoy - don't worry whether you can play any of it on a piano or any other pitched instrument, don't worry whether you can write it down, don't worry whether they're playing the #11 or the b13 on a chord, just be able to sing along with it the way you sing along with your favorite songs.

Listen to Paul Chambers' bass lines...listen to Wyn Kelly's or Red Garland's comping...and get your hands on every single "Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers" album ever made!  ;)

Just be more specific in your attention to detail.  Focus on rhythm, phrasing, timing, accents...immersing yourself in Louis Armstrong, or Lester Young, or Clifford Brown (et al) can help almost as much (if not just as much) as studying Blakey, Jones, and the other great jazz drummers.

I really agree with James about getting back to the roots and listening to the Fathers of Jazz. Just so you don't misunderstand, Elvin is incredible, but like James said, he was influenced by someone as well. So try to go back as far as you can. Since the drumset is a relatively new instrument by comparison, we are blessed in that there are many recordings documenting it's birth. I wonder if that's why people always say to listen to Baby Dodds?  ;D

Don't just listen, but play-along with the albums. Get the feel of where the time is and what they did to sound they way that they do.

Here's a few practical things you can do:

• When listening to jazz recordings, and when you plan to play-along, only use your Ride cymbal. Focus on playing good time on the Ride and make it swing with what the drummer on the recording is doing. In fact, to remove the temptation to do more, I grab the Ride cymbal and my throne and set-up elsewhere. This keeps me from doing anything else but playing good time on the Ride. Do the same thing, but only use the HiHat ... playing 2 and 4 with the foot. At some point FAR FAR down the road, you can combine the Ride and the Hihat.
• PLAY QUARTER-NOTES!!! If you can't make quarter notes swing, and it is possible, then you might as well forget the rest. Lock in with the walking bass lines and make those quarter notes sing! FAR FAR down the road you can sneak in some swung eighths. I think working on quarter-notes is far more important than the standard swing Ride pattern; that can come next.
  
  
• When studying with Alan Dawson, he helped me with playing the melody on the Ride. Rather than just play time, I would outline the Head of the tune on the Ride cymbal. This brought some real cohesion to the music ... and I actually sounded like a real musician rather than some monkey playing an ostinato Ride pattern. It also helped me hear the phrasing of the tune, and how the horn players were feeling it.

These are just a few suggestions for you to explore in your time with Jazz. All of these things worked well for me and I continue to work on them to this day!

The last thing is that we've got to LISTEN to jazz if we want to PLAY jazz. I'm not suggesting that you don't listen to jazz Gaddabout, but I wanted to encourage anyone who is wanting to play jazz that they must spend time listening to it.

If you wanted to learn a second language, how well do you think you would do just be studying out of a book? You've got to be around people who speak the language so you can hear all the inflections, etc., that they use. This is a common problem with students who study languages in public schools, but never actually get to go to a place that uses the language exclusively. When the finally do, and try to use what they've learned, they usually get laughed at because it's so textbook .... nothing like what is used in every day life.

And so is Jazz ... or any style for that matter. How can I expect to be able to REALLY play a particular style if I don't listen to that genre of music? Hence, I don't play Heavy Metal.  8)

2 specific tips for the ride.  

1. Play in a circular motion.  You can't swing if your playing all "locked" into one place.  The circular motion helps to give a fluid stroke, as well as helps to enforce the Swing!!

2. Many people accent the "skip beat" in the ride pattern, do yourself a favor and avoid doing this!  It doesn't matter if you are playing just quarters, or the spank-a-lang pattern, place the accent on the 2 and 4.  Also, the accent doesn't need to be huge, but there should be an obvious difference between accents and non-accents.  BTW, the circular motion really helps enforce this accent pattern.  

Another tip for learning how to swing, transcriptions!  Transcibing is difficult, but it really shows you the music in a new light.  Try it!

Two quickies:

1)  Back in my drum set days, many moons ago, Steve Houghton pointed something out to me during a lesson:  generally speaking in rock/funk, the "guts" of the drumming is in the snare and bass - you can take away the hi-hat and ride cymbal from most rock beats, and still get the essence of the beat, but if you take away the SD/BD, you lose the character of the beat.  In (straight-ahead) jazz, the tendency is just the opposite - the "core" of jazz drumming is in your ride cymbal and hi-hat, and the SD/BD serve to complement what's going on in the cymbals.  Steve also taught me that the ride cymbal is the "melody" of the drummer's kit - and all it takes is listening to Jack DeJohnette, Roy Haynes, or Tony Williams (among others) to demonstrate this.

2)  Regarding the significance of quarter notes:  one of the greatest lessons in "swing" that I ever got was seeing Steve Gadd (with Chuck Mangione of all people - no disrespect to Chuck, as I like much of his music, it's just that he's not held up as a paragon of straight-ahead jazz) - at one point on a particular tune (medium tempo swing), he just played quarter notes.  Ride, snare, hi-hat, bass drum, all quarter notes in unison...and it swung harder than anything I'd heard up to that point as a high-school-aged drummer.

2a)  Swinging like a mother playing only quarter notes on the ride cymbal?  Did someone say Jimmy Cobb on Miles' Kind Of Blue??

Joe Morello has you accenting each quarter note on the ride. He says that this accent will help the bass player lock in with you. It also gives the groove some guts. He also has you doing this when playing straight eighth-notes on the hh if you playing a rock groove.

I just put up a :60 clip of "Resolution" here http://home.earthlink.net/~mself14430/coltrane.mp3 for anyone who hasn't purchased the disc yet. The whole thing is a must have.

Bart, practicing the quarter notes to the bass line makes sense to me, since I was really asking how to make swing *feel good*. Will definately incorporate that into my practice routine.

I can sit down and play be-bop patterns all day, but none of them come close to feeling like the example above! I had the cassette copy of the LP for 10 years and never gave it more than a cursory listen. Don't know what I was thinking way back when.

Ohhhhhhhh, that is sooooooooooo good.

Forget you are white when attempting this!  Elvin's groove is like a freight train.   I love it.

Great stuff....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again-You are none of those people.  Play the feel that's comfortable for you.

As for understanding swing, it's just listening.   Once you understand what it sounds like, plus basic techniques if you're really interested,  you'll be there. You're confused by trying to be more than one drummer.  Be one drummer.  Yourself.

Yes, the goal is to "be yourself," but the question is, how do you get to the point that you sound like yourself while still swinging?  Anyone can sit down at a drum set and sound "like himself" right off the bat - but it's not only a matter of sounding unique.  No matter what style you want to learn, you have to investigate examples of that style.

The definition of what "swings" has been defined (and re-defined, and continues to be re-defined) by the collective body of work by the great masters of jazz, from Sidney Bechet and Louis Armstrong through Victor Lewis and Kenny Barron (et al).  Obviously, "we're none of these people," but they're the ones who have defined the music, they're the ones we should listen to if we want to improve our sense of swing.

It's not just a matter of listening, either - one can internalize (to at least a certain degree) the swing feel of, say, Art Blakey by playing along to his recordings and trying to match the rhythm and phrasing as exactly as possible - and continuing that process with the many other master jazz drummers, combining that into one's own individual style.  It's not "trying to be more than one drummer," it's trying to learn from more than one drummer, and in turn grafting some of their style and personality onto your own.  

You won't learn to swing all by yourself in a practice room - you learn by practicing along with the recordings of the greats, and by working with musicians who swing.

Listening to a bunch of different drummers, and getting ideas from them, is great.  That's a basic way of learning.  But I still think trying to "be" a bunch of different drummers is the road to confusion.

As a for instance, Buddy Rich couldn't swing like Mel Lewis.  And  Mel Lewis couldn't swing like Buddy Rich.  You try to be both these guys, you're in trouble.

I say (with all due respect for other's opinions)  Find Your Own Feel.  And stick with it.

I'm confused...I don't see where anyone in this thread has written that a drummer should "try to be" another drummer, or several other drummers.

In my vibes' playing, one can hear the influence of Gary Burton, Mike Mainieri, Bobby Hutcherson (and to be clear, I'm not putting myself anywhere near on a par with those masters, I'm just saying one can hear their influence on me).  I've listened to, and in some cases I've consciously adapted, elements in the playing of each of these vibists.  However, I'm not "trying to be" Gary, Mike, or Bobby when I perform - I'm just trying to play the music the best I can.  I simply grafted some of their approach onto my own, and made it part of my own thing - and as I move into my late 30s, I'm just now starting to develop my own identifiable musical personality, which has grown out of all these other influences.  

That's all I'm saying when I recommend trying to match what you hear on a recording of a master jazz drummer - it's something for the practice room, not something to be done consciously on a gig.  Sorry if I didn't make that distinction clearly enough.

I agree with James on this. No one is saying they should try and be just like another drummer; that's impossible anyway.

It's a basic principle of hanging out or listening to people who are already doing what you would like to be doing.

If you want to play Jazz, it only makes sense to listen to other successful jazz drummers. If you do your own thing without having ever listened to Jazz ... how do you know what you are playing is Jazz? You can be your own person, but you still have to have some reference in order to place yourself in a particular genre or style.

All the great musicians of our day have listened to the players of yesteryear. It's about getting back to basics. Study the greats ... then go and develop your own style and sound. If you only listen to Rock drummers or Rock music ... how do you expect to be able to be a great Jazz drummer, or better still, even play Jazz? You don't even know what it is if you don't listen to it. If you refuse to study the style you will only limit yourself and have a very small view of the big picture.

Guys!!!

Great topic!!

First I wish to use this topic to get some tips...
I've always worked with rock music, but never forgetting the other styles. But you know...  :-\

So i'm wishing to go deeper into Jazz music and I'm thinking that you guys can give some tips on how to start CORRECTLY this time!!   ;)

Thanks

Mateus,

The big thing has already been presented earlier in this thread:  listening to the masters of this genre (both live and on recordings) will help you to understand what you need to add to, or change, in your own playing, in order to be an effective jazz drummer.  Many of the greats have been mentioned already, but I'd check out (for starters):

Art Blakey
"Papa" Jo Jones
"Phillly" Joe Jones (yes, two different "Jo(e) Jones"!)
Jimmy Cobb
Art Blakey
Kenny Clarke
Victor Lewis
Kenny Washington
Art Blakey
Mickey Roker
Roy Haynes
Art Blakey
Elvin Jones
Tony Williams
Jack DeJohnette
Peter Erskine
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey
Art Blakey

(Yeah, I guess you could say that I really recommend checking out Art Blakey!)   ;)  And I'm sure I'm forgetting someone really obvious...

Listen to the earlier styles of jazz, even going back before the Swing era, to the Louis Armstrong groups with "Baby" Dodds - it's interesting (to me, anyway) how the development of an individual musician's jazz skills is so closely linked to understanding the development of jazz in general - the parallel is striking.  The way jazz has developed over the last century or so can be linked directly to these early years, and it's important as a player to have at least some understanding of what those early musicians' styles are all about.

Jazz is a language - get it in your ears, and it'll start coming out through your hands and feet.  Don't get it in your ears, and you'll never "get it," just like with any other kind of music  (I suspect you know that already).

The other thing to consider is how the different parts of the drum set rate in importance to one another.  Generally speaking, in jazz, the ride cymbal and hi-hat are the core of one's drumming; the snare, bass (and toms) all serve to augment the ride cymbal in particular, which really is the "melody" of one's drumming.  A drummer could function in a jazz group with only his ride cymbal and hi-hat, and everything else removed from his kit, just like a rock drummer could function (again, generally speaking) with only a bass drum and snare drum; everything else is secondary - important to be sure, but secondary.

Mateus,
I am no great jazz drummer, but I think I can offer some tips.  First and foremost, listening.  This has been said multiple times, but is so often overlooked I thought I would mention it again.  For example, in the last year I have practice less than ever :(, however, I have also listened consistently to music for at leat 40-50 hours a week!  I am not exagerating.  I listen to GOOD music at work, 8 hours a day, then quite a bit at home as well, and I try to go hear music when I can. My playing has grown more in this last year than in any other.  Listening is the most important, and most often overlooked, part of musical development of any style.

Now, the problem with jazz in particular is HOW to listen.  This takes time, at first, jazz sounds pretty lame to most people, well Americans anyway.  It takes time for you to understand it.  I personally understand a little more everytime I listen to a particular album.  If you don't already have the Miles Davis album, "Kind of Blue", do yourself a giant favor and go buy it.  This is cool jazz, or modal jazz.  In this particular recording, the tempos are slow enough for you to have time to understand what is going on.  It is also a great recording in that you can hear every instrument well.  Do some studious listening to this album.  If you can obtain a copy of the music(which is super easy!) follow along while listening.  Note the how Jimmy Cobb plays during the melody versus how he plays at the beginning of a solo versus how he plays toward the end of a solo versus the beginning of a new solo versus  going back into the "head".  

Yes, there are certain patterns that you need to know, a certain amount of key ingredients are needed.  However, if one truly "gets" the music, he can swing the hell out of it with one stick and a ride cymbal.  For instance, Cobb swings beautifully on this album using only quarter notes at times.  I think dubious study of the music should be spent before you start to spend hours on the "jazz techniqe".  This listening and studying will show the dynamics of approaching the drumset in a jazz context.  The ride is your main axe here, followed by your hat.  You can play jazz without a drum at all!  

Obviously I feel that listening is the main part of your development here.  However, I would like to add this.  All of the drummers mentioned are incredible.  Yet, they can be overwhelming.  I recommend you start with "Kind of Blue" and really learn the album before you move on to some of the other cats.  Check them out, but wait a while to really study Elvin and Tony!  

Lots' of ramblin, sorry!!

Like the others have said, listen to the greats (including Joe Morello and Buddy Rich whose names I believe have been omitted from this thread). There is also a great Mel Bay book called "Drum Standards" which are transcriptions of ten classic jazz songs. The drummers charted include Joe Morello, Roy Haynes, Tony Williams and Elvin Jones to name a few.  At $14.95 it is a steal!

I think I saw James and Bart touch on this.
One key is to lock in with the Bass Player.
Buy him a drink, cigarette, whatever he needs (no I'm not suggesting anything illegal, but you get my point), but lock in with him.  If you lock in with a very good Bass Player, it'll make you pee your pants it Swings So Good !   Then, he'll buy You, any thing you need !   Everything else is Gravy !

They're tellin' you right about the quarter notes on the ride.  Check Jimmy Cobb on 'Kinda Blue'.  So simple, So Swingin'.
All the great Drummers listed on this thread, check out how they lock in with the Bass Player.
In closing, listen to the great old cats on Bass.
I know as Drummers, we are the Timekeepers by function, but a  great Bass Player can carry you to
'Sweavin' !  (swingin' Heaven)

Hmmm...

A key to swing is locking in with the bass player...

Hmmm...

bass players usually walk quarter-note-based lines in straight-ahead jazz...

Hmmm (yet again)...

quarter notes on the ride cymbal...

Hey, anyone else detecting a pattern here???   :o

(I'm pointing out something that km' probably knows already - something that saved my hide on many a gig back in my drum set days - when in doubt, get your ride cymbal to lock in with your bassist's walking lines, and you're at least 90% of the way there...)