DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

 ???  Ok, I'm learning Trad. grip on my own because it seems like quite a challenge, I am having a few problems, I am having trouble with my stroke, because I keep hitting my sticks together and I'm hitting the hi-hat so it is causing problems.  I also am trying to raise my throne so I'm above the drums so  I'm having problems.  I'm also hitting my middle finger really hard, and it hurts.  Should I use gloves, special sticks, or what ??? I also really need advice on new kit set-up so that it is easier with traditional.

     I will first suggest that you get a tutor, and fast! questions like these are very hard to answer since it's all about visualization. A lot of drummers I've seen who haven't been tutored, have acquired bad habits in there playing.
     If you don't get a tutor, I would recommend getting a video or a book with pictures in it to demonstrate the proper stroke. Steve Smiths 2 dvd set goes into great and unpresidented detail of matched and traditional grip.
     As for the drumset, like we've said many times before, it's all in preference and what YOU are used. If people were to suggest drum kit set ups that would help, they would only be giving you something that THEY'RE used to or some they know are used to.
     There are however, positionings of the snare that could help you. Many drummers will either tilt their snare to the right, which raises the left side and allows them to hit rim-shots easier. Others will tilt the snare foward (away form them) which has a similar affect.  Still, others keep their snare settings the same between matched and traditional (like me  ;D). For instance: Dave Weckl keeps his snare pretty much straight.
     I would also run a search on the site... I'm sure you can dig up only threads similar to this one.

I think raising yourself in relation to the set was a good start, But if you are working on the fundamentals of trad. grip get off the set and just use a pad untill you have the technique down. But you do need to look into getting a private instructor. Bad habits are hard to break.

1. Follow all the advice above, especially finding a tutor and working strictly on a snare and/or a pad. It's an entirely different work load on your left hand (if you're right-handed playing traditional). It's going to take some time to build coordination just playing on a single flat surface, much less a kit.

2. All the rules of match grip apply to traditional. The best way I can describe to start is to flip a bird with your left hand (assuming your right-handed -- things are switched if you're left-handed) and place the stick between the second and third joint of your index finger, letting it rest on top of the second joint of your ring finger. This will allow you to keep some space from the bottom of your thumb and your fulcrum. (I hope I described that properly). My general advice is to choke up on the stick a little more than you would using matched grip, but you'll just have to experiment to find optimum control and rebound.

3. Anticipate some blisters at the fulcrum (the pivot point on your index finger) and especially on top of your ring finger. In fact, until you learn how to control the stick, you're probably going to experience some bruising on your ring finger. Just be thankful you're not learning this with 3S marching sticks like I did!  :o

4. Practice rotating up and down very, very slowly, and at all five stick heights. Never let the bead of your stick rest on the head (rest position should be about a 1/4-inch above the head). As you build up speed, experiment by "opening" your grip a little. I think you'll find it's easier to build stamina this way. I certainly prefer trad. grip over match grip when my left hand is required to play busy!

foreversavedkid,

Why is it that you're wanting to learn tradish? Other than for fun and for the spirit of the thing, I've never seen a good reason to spend time learning it. I guess I see it as a sacrifice of practice time that could have been spent working on other things.

Ryan, how can it be a sacrafice if thats what he wants to learn?
I just switched back to trad after almost 20 years of matched. I tend to use both depending on what I am trying to accomplish in the song, but I think there is nothing wrong with adding another tool to the toolbox IMHO.
-RHS

RHS,  

I have never heard anyone explain to me what there is that one can do with traditional grip that can't also be done with matched.  I've heard plenty of players state what they like to to better with trad' versus matched, but nobody has ever demonstrated to me that something is not possible with the matched, but is possible with traditional.  Maybe that's just the people I've spoken to, but that's my experience FWIW.

I won't speak for Ryan, but where I see the "sacrifice" is in the fact that each of us has limited practice time, and time spent on one subject - I.e., learning traditional grip when one already plays matched grip - means less time spent on other areas, such as:

• practicing with a metronome
• working on new beats and styles
• learning new songs
• developing one's sound
• listening to and studying new music and other drummers
• (etc., etc., etc.)

If one believes, as I do, and (apparently) as Ryan does, that there isn't any tangible, definable benefit to playing traditional grip, then there isn't any musical benefit to learning it, meaning the devotion of valuable practice time to it is a sacrifice, in that other areas of study get short shrift.  I understand your point about having "another tool (in) the toolbox," but (to carry the tool analogy a bit further) if you already have a complete set of screwdrivers, why do you need to go out and buy another set of screwdrivers that allow you to accomplish exactly the same things as your first set does?

"Foreversavedkid" started this thread by writing,


So, unless I'm missing something in his original post, he's not doing it because he has "hit a wall" with his use of matched grip (either technically or musically, or both), he's doing it out of curiosity, or purely as a "challenge."  Given that as the reason, I just don't see the justification for spending the time on it - and I suspect that's what Ryan is getting at as well.

I'm just learning it, cause it looks sooo dang cool!   8)

besides, all my fav players use it: Vinnie C., Steve Smith, Thomas Lang, Matt Chamberlin, Stewart Copeland, as well as my veteran favs like Max Roach, Louis Bellison, Elvin Jones, Gene Krupa.  why cant I?   :P

My issue isn't with the traditional grip specifically - use whatever floats your boat - I just don't understand why anyone would take the time to develop the ability to do essentially the same thing with two different grips.  Just seems kind of redundant to me.

Hey James, good to see your name again.

I would never argue anyone has to learn traditional grip, but if the guy's inspired to learn it, I think it can only benefit him to learn it. So many of the greatest drummers in the world play this way, and as someone who's played both ways for 20 years, I think there's a uniqueness  to it -- maybe the way the brain processes motor skills, I'm not suure. While I'm sure I could learn how to swing playing matched grip, I'm not totally confident I'd be able to identify with a lot of the older drummers if I didn't learn it playing traditional. When my left hand is turned over in matched, I simply don't think the same way I do when it's in traditional position.

Maybe I've been unduly influenced by so many images from the 40s and 50s of hip black drummers in smoky Manhattan jazz clubs. I won't deny the likely cultural influence. But I would never discourage anyone who wants to learn and experiment with the tradition of drumming. There's something magical about revisiting old things, some seemingly archaic and lacking purpose on the surface.

Being a musician isn't always about taking a linear path to technical excellence. Sometimes it's about exploring, regardless of the immediate and visible benefits. If he's inspired to learn traditional, there may be more for him to gain than a new technique.

Word. That's why I wrote, "...other than for the spirit of the thing." I think there's something to be said for FEELING jazz-ish as you play: The posture of the body, the thrill of holding the sticks the same way Buddy Rich, Chick Webb and 'Philly' Joe did, dancing around in one's seat, the ambience... Drumming is a kinesthetic experience, so it would make sense that these variables would actually lend to a more authentic sound.

To clarify:

I play traditional grip, and have for many years. Still, James Walker summed up my thoughts about the issue perfectly.

First off James...It's good to see you posting again...I didn't see anything from you for a while and was wondering where you were....with that said...
I think you missed my point ( or perhaps I need to word my response better). I was commenting that Ryan felt it was a waste of time. Well guess what? It's not his time so I don't think that comment was warrented. I also don't want to get into a trad vs. Matched war ( Lord knows there are enough of those available on the web and this forum  ::)), but I know from MY experience, that when I play more jazz type stuff...it feels more comfortable for me playing trad than matched, thus my comment about another tool in the toolbox because that exactly how I view it.
I also don't recall anything in foreversavedkid's post about not practicing something else because he was working on switching his grip. Ryan AND yourself both made the assumption he was giving something up in order to do this.
I know nothing of foreversavedkid's life, but perhaps he has the time to do it. When I was in highschool I would spend 4 or 5 hours a day practicing. I could easily accomplish everything you listed and then some.
I was going on what I read in the original post, not assuming I knew more about the subject than was presented at the onset, a mistake I feel you AND Ryan both made.
You also said " I just don't see the justification for spending the time on it ". Well, just because you don't understand, doesn't make it wrong. IMHO
He was looking for advice about the technique, not opinions as to wether or not we felt he was wasting time or not. I just thought Ryans comment was not warrented so I replied in FSK's defense.
As for the screwdriver analogy, I buy the other set  because A) I can, and B) the rubber gripped ones as apposed to the plastic gripped ones work better in the rain...they don't slip.  ;) YMMV
-RHS

My turn,
I really think it's important to be able to use both trad & matched grips. The two grips are just not the same of course nor do they serve the same pupose... IMHO.
Although some cats may like to, I don't enjoy playing a r&b, rock or funk thing using the tradional grip when I'm having to get more crack out the snare than a plumber has butt, that's a matched grip scenario for me. Now when I'm using brushes on a tune like Israels or using sticks on a atraight ahead tune like Mr P.C. it's basically the traditional grip, its a finesse thing and hey, come on, it looks cool  8)
In certain tunes that would more like pieces as in fusion stuff  I find myself switching grips for different sections of the tune.
And what about drum corps playing? Backsticking is just not the same matched.
Good to have both in your arsenal  ;)







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I respectfully disagree.  I'm a matched grip player who was told the same thing when I started.  In fact, I was told matched is probably superior.  I believed it and never really became proficient with the traditional grip.

They were wrong.  Simply stated, IMHO, pronation of the forearm is a superior body movement to execute the fine motor skills needed to manipulate a drum stick WHEN YOUR ARM IS CLOSE TO YOU than is pronating the rist.  On the other hand, again IMHO, forearm pronation and the grip used to execute it looses its effectiveness when you have to straighten your arm and reach for a sound source.

Check out Jim Chapins video on the Moeller method.  If you've never seen Jim Chapin demostrate his technique, let me tell you, you cannot argue with the results.  And he must have been at least 70 when it was recorded.  He explains that Moeller taught that even the right hand in a traditional grip should utilize forearm pronation rather that the rist pronation commonly taught and utilized with a matched grip.  Specifically, Moeller taught that when looking down on the sticks they should be at a right angle (90 degrees) to each other, and when facing the player, you should only see the backs of their hands throughout the stroke, not the palms.  With this technique, you are pronating the forearm of the right hand moreso than the rist, and even with a traditional grip, both sticks pass across your face on the upstroke rather than by your ear.

Moreover, it is my experience that when playing (or at least trying to play) traditional grip, causes me to think differently in terms of musical phrasing and comping that I don't when playing matched.  Somehow the change in grip causes my brain to create in a different way.  I'm confident that I'm not the only one who has experienced this.

Ratamatatt

...and the reason you can't utilize forearm pronation with both the left and right hands when playing matched grip is...?

I haven't seen the Chapin video, but I did just recently check out some of Dom Famularo's videos on the Vic Firth web site, including one featuring Jim Chapin.  Dom asked Jim to demonstrate the Moeller technique, and Jim did...first with the traditional left hand grip, then using the "matched" grip technique - in his left hand.  Played the same thing with either grip.  He sounded great in both instances.

James everything you've said makes perfect sense but there are some of us who didn't have a choice. For example, I played in high school band. You couldn't be in the band at all unless you played in the marching band and in those days, the extreme right tilt of the drum attached to your left thigh required the traditional grip. No way to untilt the drum with that old technology. Thus trad grip was necessary. Not so in concert, but if you stated the year with traditional chances are you'd finish it that way. Now I play matched for heavier stuff and because my technical foundation (rudiments) was with traditional grip, I tend to slip back to that for jazz and such. I am always working to make the matched grip technically equal to my trad grip but even after 40 years, the trad can be more comfortable at times. And it really looks cool to switch back and forth during atune 8)

As an occupational therapist I have to question the use of the word pronation here. Pronating your forearm is the turning of your hand from palm up to palm down. This is done at the forearm between the 2 bones of the forearm. There is no pronation of the wrist unless you are misidentifying the wrist for the forearm. The wrist is that part of your arm, right before your hand, that has all those little bones that get broken in bar fights. It allows your hand to move in a sideways motion, put your arm flat on the table and move your thumb sideways toward yout wrist while your forearm stays still and then move it the other way pinky toward wrist. It also allows us to move are hand  up and down, waving your hand at the wrist. If your hand has the back facing upwards you are in pronation. You've pronated you forearm. The motion of pronation is no longer taking place.
You are pronating when using traditional grip bringing the stick in an arc down to the drumhead. You are in pronation (but not using the motion of pronation) when playing in matched grip and using that waving at the wrist motion, and some fingers, etc.
I hope that makes sense. I've got a book about grip that has nice anatomical drawings and descriptions called
Understanding Drum Techniques by David Hughlett
It really breaks down all the parts of your grip.
I would be interested in what the rest of you guys think of it. I ordered mine through Interstate Music.

Before I go into, I will say that I do somewhat agree with Mr. Walker's point, and I see where he's coming from. However...

Without going to much into it, I've learned through my experience with both grips,  that there are things you can do better with traditional grip than with matched grip, and vise versa.

For instance, I find it much easier playing jazz with traditional grip; since the weight of my hand is under the stick rather than over with matched, making it much easier to play very soft, very fast.  Now of course you can do this with matched as well... but I'll testify that it's not as easy.

I can lay out tons of examples, but the one huge demonstration of it, that I found was from Steve Smiths 2 disc dvd set. I know I mention this dvd set A LOT, but there's so much to reference from it. I would suggest checking it out for his explanation for the use of both grips.

I don't think your stick cares how you hold it.  If you can hit the drumhead when you want and with the force and finesse you want, what difference does the grip make?  The reason people think one grip is better than the other is because they are more proficient with one.  I use both grips because the trad grip looks cooler on some songs.  Using both grips allows me rest different parts of my hand while playing.  

Louis says:
...I use both grips because the trad grip looks cooler on some songs.  Using both grips allows me to rest different parts of my hand while playing.


That's it Louis....Amen  8)

   That's exactly when & why I also switch to trad. grip in different situations. I find it easier to play quieter and faster with traditional grip with jazz grooves.
   
    I disagree with what someone said about having to spend as much time on a new grip as you did with the old one. I haven't spent even close to the same amount of time on both grips (I almost always use matched). I've been working on a snare piece for the last four months (just for fun...I'm such a geek ::)) and I've almost always practiced it using matched grip but my teacher once commented on how well I could play it using trad. with almost no practice with the grip. If someone were to surprise me one day and show up on my doorstep and told me to prove to them I could play equally well with both grips, I would most definately be able to prove it to them....

Sheesh, I started tradition a couple years ago, and I'm just now becoming equal in both grips.  What's your trick!?  ??? ;)

   I don't know man. I guess it's easier to learn another grip once becoming proficient with another. Or maybe Im just god's gift....(hehe) ::)

I guess you're just an exception then.  It took me a smashed finger (courtesy of a truck door -- long story) and months of perseverance to even approach something that I would use in public.

   I went to a music school at a university for one semester and my teacher was the most nutso snare drummer I have ever seen (and also by far the best teacher I've ever had). He played traditional grip and I kinda would watch him when he was demonstrating stuff (actually I was probably gawking more than I was watching). It really helped just to be able to watch someone who was that good and could play using that grip with so much confidence and knowledge.

If it's a choice of those two, I'd say it's God's gift! haha

I don't see how being proficient in match would help you with traditional, it's a totally different stroke, and a totally different set of muscles.

   What I mean is that it's not all about the muscles being taught to play in a completely new way, it's also about learning how to play the stroke (I guess like a motor skills brain thingy). By becoming proficient in one grip, one can learn from the mistakes made while learning their first grip, and applying what they learned to their new grip can make things go along much more smoothly. I don't think I've really properly explained myself but I hope you'll kinda understand my gibberish.
Hippie out...

PS. I'm definitely not god's gift :'(. I wish there was a teacher within even a 1 hour drive though so I could at least find out if I'm any good or not....or not....or not...or not

Hippie, I agree with you on Art Verdi doing something musical but you have to admit his videos of his left finger control, artverdi.com, can be very helpful in this thread.

I use both grips!  The trad looks a lot cooler for some songs AND allows me to rest some muscles that I use with the matched grip.  I learned the trad grip in school band and the matched grip several years after high school.  The matched grip is better (IMO) for the drumset when you play songs with a lot of tom fills and the trad grip is better when I do a lot of delicate snare work.  I consider it another tool available for me to use.

Trad grip is for snobs if you ask me.  No offense, but I have an allergic reaction when I see guys playing it- usually I can't hear what they are doing anyways.

Go ahead and work on your trad grip for dainty needle work and brush painting ...I'll be working on my dbl bass groupings in an attempt to move some air.

But yeah, trad grip has some showy riffs/patterns associated with it- so just because I can't stand it, doesn't mean this kid shouldn't learn it.  It just isn't for me.

I know that this is an age-old debate and the right answer is -- whatever works best for you.

But I can't resist adding just a few quick personal observations:

I was taught exclusively with traditional grip and it served me well in high school concert bands, jazz ensembles, and jazz fusion bands through college.  There are definitely subtleties with traditional grip that fit with jazz.

Over the past year I've been working hard to develop my matched grip technique.  Why?  Well part of it is that I became really impressed, actually amazed, with Carter Beauford's technique.  Specifically I was blown away by his ambidexterity.  He's always playing "open" (no crossed arms) with a left hand ride when warranted and a right hand ride when needed.  I just seems so smooth and efficient.  

So, I started experimenting with left hand ride and hi-hat patterns.  I could do this with traditional grip (Stewart Copeland does) but it just seems awkward to be up on the ride with an open left hand.

The other application where I enjoy traditional grip more is playing various percussion that I've mounted above my hi-hat.  I have a cow bell, wood block and tambourine that I use for accents and I like playing them left handed rather than taking my right hand away from the steady ride or back beat on the snare.

Some of this still feels a bit forced, but worth it and I'm enjoying it.  If nothing more it's just making me think differently.

And it's always nice to drop back down to traditional grip for lots of ghost notes and faster snare work.

I'm far from an expert, but it seems that if you can get some experience and comfort with both techniques, then you'll have more fun and at least feel more flexible in the long run.

By the way, I think the same applies for the heel-up or toe-down debate for bass drum technique.  A diversity of skills is good.

Enjoy!

Rusty

I'm no snob  8).  

Trad grip is the way I learned.  Where I was in high school in the late 60's, matched grip was a NO-NO, UNACCEPTABLE, NOT VALID.

And if you saw me now, you'd be able to hear me, my bass player used to give me constant s**t for being too loud.  My volume (like everyone's) is obtained by using force with technique (I.e. you don't have to LOOK like you're playing hard in order to obtain good volume).

I'm sure either grip will serve you well depending on which one you learn.  I don't believe the trad grip has any disadvantages compared to the matched grip.  In my case, I have more micro-control over my left stick than I do my right.  This may be do to the grip, this may be due to the fact that I have to work on my right hand more.

Wait, you're right, maybe I am snobby because the trad grip looks so cool  8)

Well, I use both grips and enjoy both.  Yes, I've spent a lot of time working on both (more on traditional) and see the logic behind the redundancy factor, but a similar argument (not specifically the redundancy part) can be used when choosing to do anything (what other activity could I be doing?).  If it pays off, great, if it doesn't you now know not to pursue it anymore and the mental burden of wondering 'what if' is now removed.  For instance, what if you did focus 100% of your studies with matched grip.  Somewhere along the way, you witnessed some great drummers using traditional so you started wondering what it would be like to use traditional.  You decide to stick with the logic of not wasting time on the redundancy of learning a second grip and move on.  The years go by and you keep wondering about traditional every time you see it.  Twenty years later, you're still wondering.  Maybe you could have decided to 'waste the time' to study traditional grip a bit just to put an end to the wondering.  How much is the 'wondering part/what if part' worth compared to some (wasted) time spent on something?  I say 'waste' the time.  Nothing kills me more than constant wondering.  This is purely a personal decision, though.  Sometimes wondering is not a big deal to some people.  I actually wish I was more like that!    :)

I guess the point to my opinion is that if you WANT to learn something (there is an interest), go ahead and learn.  Only that person knows what they're interested in and what they want to do.  Time wasted is all relative to how they view it, not anyone else.

In fact, I think I just wasted time putting this post together as I believe I've just restated others' thoughts from previous posts/threads.....     :(

I use traditonal grip for much of my playing as I have big arms and I don't have to keep my elbow cocked outward to play a backbeat on the snare.  I find that I also get a nifty wrist-motion that increases volume when needed, so moving air (or, rather, the lack of such) isn't really an issue.  

You can hear what Hal Blaine was doing, can't you?  As I understand, he used traditional grip most of the time.  Then again, he was mic'ed rather well.  But, for those "loud" purists, as it were, nothing's stopping the player from turning his stick over and using the butt-end (as Hal did, I've read).

Add me to the consensus that "it just looks cool  8) ".  For that, I'm a snob, I guess -- excuse me --

_{Bart! This champagne is room temperature!}

If the fiteen year old, inexperienced drummer may way in here...

I've been using traditional grip ever since I started and have never found something that somebody else of about the same skill and age could do much better than me. Infact I've been laughed and scorned when I pick up the sticks and sit down with them in my grip, only to leave people agaped at my ability to match older more experienced drummers.
I accredit this to the fact that traditional form is just faster and has better control, and is easier to keep up. I play with more emphasis on my left hand, but it can last a lot longer than my right. I can also play just as loud and heavy as a lot of the metal drummers I've been listeing to.
Maybe he just wants to learn it for the HECKUVIT.
I've noticed he hasn't wieghed in for a little bit. We don't know his circumstances so maybe he feels confident with other areas and wants to have a second grip. Or he just wants to be able to say he can. Nothing wrong with having two grips.
I've been trying to learn matched alittle bit but I don't have an instructer to learn from so its mostly what I see other guys doing. when I do play it my arm feels akward, I don't know how to angle my wrist, I can't get the accents and continuing loudness, or cresendos, I loose a lot with grace notes, and it seems way to sluggish.
basically he just wants to learn a new grip to see if it works better for him, that why I started dabbeling with matched.

BTW FSK,I've found that rasing the throne to full height is good so that you set farely well above your drums helps at first, and tilit the drums a little bit to make it seem sort of flat helps me. but keep your cymbal placement how they are. I've found a lot of people complain about getting cymbals and use it as an excuse to not learn the grip cause they can;t hit them hard enough. The best way is to just reach out more horzantly and let gravity help you, but you still have to force downward yourself. And go for the left side of the cymbal when your crashing, you get a more natural hit from your sticks.
Experiment for your self with different methods. I didn't really start exploring these methods until a year or two ago and it already is second nature for me to flick out and nab a crash or splash or what ever is near there with out looking at my hands, but you might want to be paying attention to them at first.

Of course I'm not really that good, or have a lot of expereince but thats sorta how I did it.