Drummer Cafe Community Forum

Just got the Dave Weckl DVD 'How to develop technique' and well it certainly does what is says on the tin.  

The rebound you get with a fiddle finger fulcrum feels so much smoother than a first finger and as Dave says 'it's a more natural approach's, couldn't agree more.  

I know Dave didn't invent this before we get into that and if you check out Dom Famularo's cyber lessons with Jim Chapin you'll see him use a similar grip to demonstrate Moeller, it was friggin poetry in motion.

Not to say one grip is better than another but just another tool in the armoury.  Love Freddie Grubers cameo aka the godfather, 'and so I said to the guy' classic, check it out.

yeah i love freddies bit where he nearly bursts out laughing when he says "some guys come to left, some guys come to the right"...genius.

more important than how much quicker you'll be(and you may have already noticed this) is how much bigger your whole kit will sound with this grip and your groove will improve

I can maybe accept the "groove" part of this statement, but have a REAL hard time with the "bigger sound" part.

Obviously we all need to use the technique that works best for us in any given situation.  MY grip can change back and forth between these two (and others) as needed.  None of these grips make my DRUMS sound better.  My Playing, maybe--but not my kit.

Seriously? I have a lot of time for that grip because it improves my relaxation (so I guess it might influence the groove), but I'm struggling bigtime with the notion that a grip can be responsible for making the kit sound "bigger". How so?

I am so sick of hearing about this "new grip".  If anything, it's going to make your drums sound "jazzier".  Definitely not the "slugger" grip of my choice.  I challenge anyone who says they can get more power from fisting or at least more playable power grip/the second joint fulcrum on your index finger.

And who really thinks about fulcrums when playing anyways?  I think everyone's hands are different.  Yes I learned proper moeller technique and different orchestral snare technique as well as solid rock technique.  But this middle finger fulcrum thing, I think, is kinda hyped.

It's not Weckle's new grip that kicks, it's Dave Weckle that kicks.

So Felix, do you know much about fisting?   ;D

Seriously, does grip make that much of a difference, or is it the psychological impact that learning something new has on a player?  Something I've often pondered.  I have this video and I have learned from it, but I'm not going switch to this grip, even if Weckl and Peart have both redefined their entire playing style for it.  It's just not comfortable to me.

ok....a challenge on sound. take your old technique hit your floor tom(or any tom) listen to the tone, now take the most relaxed grip you can DO NOT impede the rebound let it happen naturally and listen to the tone....if you do it right the drums will sound bigger and more resonant. In fact Weckl demonstrates this on that tape, he says that it happens and all of my students have noticed the difference......anyways just a challenge go ahead and try it. Also this of course has to be done on a non-muffled kit.....I'm not sure it would make a difference on a highly muffled tom. Try it and lets hear your thoughts.

Truth:  Dave Weckl kicks

If:

A. Mr. Weckl's "new" grip (I've seen this for a while) is influenced in any way by one or more of his hands (definable as "part of Mr. Weckl"), and

B. Such a grip, controlled by "part of Mr. Weckl" is allowing clear representation in whole or in part of the abilities that qualify Mr. Weckl as "kicking", then

It is henceforth agreeable to refer to Mr. Weckl's grip as "kicking", at least in part, by virtue of Mr. Weckl's direct influence as defined above.

Failure to recognize such shall result of a penalty involving the exclusive use of "Drum Brushes" by the offender at the offender's gigs for a period of not more than sixty (60) days.  So-called "Jazz-Swinging and Sounds" are to be heavily encouraged at the supervising officer's discretion.

Respectfully;

Joe Kristanalufskawitz
Legal Analyst, International Recorder of Rhythm Energy Language Ergonomics, Values, Applications, Notations and Traditions (I.R.R.E.L.E.V.A.N.T); Boutros Boutros "Bam Bam" Agogo, Chairman. (http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=7816;start=msg85512#msg85512)

LMAO!

Nicely said Joe, the name that is.

There is nothing new about this technique. Joe Morello has been playing this way for years. And the natural rebound was taught to him by Billy Gladstone.

Freddie Gruber = genius? I think not. If anything he is about 60 years behind the late Mr. Gladstone.

I agree that you will get a full round tone with this playing technique and I understand where you are coming from with this statement.  I do like to play this style (although not necessarily with the "middle finger fulcrum" since I prefer the combined first joints of the index and middle finger) when I have quiet gigs.  

But for the "maximum sound" you won't get a better tone flailing on your drums but it will be "bigger" when you take into account sympathetic vibrations and resonances in relation to room acoustics and sound pressure.  Great point Hammertown!  Is louder bigger?  To a point.  It gets difficult to maintain great tone as the volume increases.  I will agree to that.  Will that technique *middle finger moeller* translate well into real world larger venues and miked situations?

I think a good drummer is going to have good tone and a good mix with their strengths in line with their style- technique perhaps being a byproduct of that, perhaps not.  Bonzo had terrible looking hands, but he sounded great.  I thought Neil Peart's sound on "Moving Pictures" was tremendous- I doubt if he had even heard of Freddy Gruber at that point in his career.  Good point, glad u challenged me.  We have not  talked about this in a long time.

Can any of you guys direct me to some pictures of what this grip is?

I'm not really that familiar with the specifics you are talking about and I can't afford the DVD at the moment.  A nice clear shot of this grip would be a help.

Thanks in advance...

Mongrel

just to clarify...I'm not really speaking of a middle finger fulcrum, but a natural unimpeded rebound of the stick. I use the middle finger fulcrum for most of my playing but when I really need to slam out a hard rock tune I change my fulcrum point. No matter what though I always use a natural rebound.

Does it really matter in the end? The fact that many drummers are getting turned on to (or at least exposed to and thus able to choose)  this useful and (as far as I'm personally concerned) superior technique is wonderful Even Moeller claimed to have developed his technique from watching parade drummers play. Perhaps we could  declare him a biter; post-humously, that is?

It's all well and good that Billy Gladstone came up with some lovely techniques. But unfortunately, for obvious reasons, none of us will be able to study with him any time soon. The fact that this technique is being taught today, and is helping drummers as good as Weckl and Peart TODAY is what is key. To me, the technique is the important thing, not who we attribute it to. What difference does it make who 'invented' it? Sure, it's good to give credit where it's due, but it's easy to slip into preserving the memory of a person rather than the work they did, which lives on past their deaths. The technique (no matter who teaches it) helps many drummers play better, and to find and define their own style. In so doing, they may not only find ways to improve upon this technique (or at least in how they incorporate it into their playing) but may create new and interesting hybrids that will further enhance the scope of available techniques for all of us.

Hey, I've got all the respect in the world for George Lawrence Stone, Billy Gladstone, Sanford Moeller, and all the rest. But I play here, now, today. I need to bang out something that works today. Great guys, I'm sure, but it's their technique that matters.

thank you boomka

I just take 3 pics from Dave DVD but how to upload pics here ?

About this thread i think you confuse new grip and let the stick bounce which Jim Chapin already need to alow the stick to rebound to have Moeller triplet no ? , and Jim was Dave teacher so normaly reboud should be already explain more by Dave in his first Back to Basic VHS   ::)

The pic needs to live somewhere on the web - either on your own web site, or one of the many photo-hosting web sites available.

Then you post a link to it here, surrounding the address with these Image tags, like this:



 

OK a friend of mine just host my pics for me ;)

(http://geocities.com/dclord2003/DW_DVD1-0.jpg)

(http://geocities.com/dclord2003/DW_DVD1-1.jpg)

(http://geocities.com/dclord2003/DW_DVD1-2.jpg)

Blah, blah, blah... I was just trying to give some well deserved recognition to Billy Gladstone and Joe M. Don't get your panties in a wad.

BTW, Joe is still teaching, usually five days a week in West Orange, N.J. at Glen Webber's Drum Studio. So he is available to anyone interested that is in the area.

Thats it?????? that was the new grip. Well I have been playing this grip for many many years. From here on in it will be refered to as the dogxray grip. Thank you

No panties, no wad, dude....

That said, you were fairly derisive of Gruber....

Anyway, it really is no big thing. Just an opinion.

Is there anyone here that doesn't use the rebound of the drumhead?  

That's a given unless on the rare occassions where I leave the stick in the head for a pitch bend.

Hey Kolp-THANKS MAN!  The shots weren't showing up for me at first...

doh! properties-copy-paste-there they are....

My impression?  hmmmm.....

I'm a rank amateur to be sure, and I 've never had any 'grip' training other than looking at some pictures, but that looks awful familiar to my hand position when I play the ride cymbal (and any number of other pieces of kit).  

As dogxray kinda pointed out above, I think that would be fairly common actually.

Guess I'll just watch this thread to see what the guys who really know how to play have to say about it.

Thanks again Kolp, sorry it took so long for my reply.

'bout time Weckl learned how to hold a drumstick ...

;)

About not seeing a picture posted here i have this problem for some pic too ( have to do properties copy paste... ) dunno why  :o

Normal that some of you use this grip without show this Weckl lessons cause as he explain Grubber use natural approach so we can use it without learn it , that say i think Weckl/Grubber/Morello/Smith...  also show you mistake to not made and advice to have more profit of this natural aproach  :P