DRUMMER CAFE - Community Forum

Who here is practicing to be the fastest drummer?  If you have a drumometer what is your fastest record of singles for a minute?  I havn't purchased one of those, but have recently been very interested in this device.

Hopefully nobody.

(Sorry.  Just my instant response).

I think the WFD is a waste and silly.

Ditto...

A metronome will do. It's better in my opinion, because at least then your speed is already in the context of "musical time."  

But, to each their own....

Hi,

With the drumometer, is it split into a left and right counter so it only records stokes that are r / l / r/ l excluding rr or ll otherwise wouldnt it be easy to slip in the odd double to get your " socre" higher than the real  single stroke score you could get??

beece

I think it is interesting to see drummers hone there skills to play that fast. Its' just another part of drumming as a sport as well as a musical expression.

Fair enough, dogxray. I do see the 'interest' in it - kind of like I see the 'interest' in seeing the biggest muscles, the hairiest woman, etc. But it just seems like a bit of a freak show.

MY concern is that a lot of young drummers (and this is who the D-o-M is largely marketed at) will get caught up in creating 'speed' rather than developing their musical talents - their listening/accompaniament skills, their rhythmic/harmonic/melodic thinking. I remember more than one of my early teachers remarking on young players' "need for speed". One mentioned how he had to go back and re-learn everything at around age 30 because he had spent his youth trying to play everything *fast* and had actually ended up hindering his own overall musical and drumming development. I took that to heart and tried to avoid that pitfall.

Sprinters don't usually run long-distances well, nor do they necessarily make good dancers, painters, or conversationalists. As drummers, I think we need to have aspects of all of these, and my fear is that too much attention being given to 'BPMs' will result in lopsided development for many young players.


Again, a metronome is plenty. It has the advantage of maintaining the musical context of 'speed' by making the notes played part of a musical vocabulary of subdivisions in 'musical time' - 8ths, 16ths, 15's, 7's.

And if one really needs to know how many BPM they are playing, some basic math skills (it never hurts to work the left side of the brain) will do the trick.

"Hairiest woman?"   :o  I always wondered when my old prom date would turn up again...

 ;D

Does this thread come up every year?

hmmm, is there someone named Art Verdi who just by chance might use one of these drumometer things that you speak of?  Would you think that I might be able to find out more about these things if I listened to a "Drumradio"?

Curious.

I know a couple of drummers who have competed.  They are most definitely much more than "speed freaks".

Pursuing speed does not mean you forsake all other aspects of drumming, so perhaps people should stop stereotyping others, drop the sarcasm and instead provide encouragement when people ask questions.

One thing this type of competition does that I appreciate, is it sets a bar as to how fast certain things can be done.  From there, others can measure their own abilities (regardless of whether or not they are trying to compete).  This of course insn't necessary becuase most drummers have access by millions of songs to refer to (in the style they play) as a measuring stick.  But still, it answers questions for some.

The pursuit of extreme speed has also contributed to many advancements in hardware as well as technique.

I also agree (and i am one of the 'young drummers' you talk about Boomka) that the WFD is a waste of time and talent.  However if it makes you money and fame, maybe selling your soul aint soooo bad. ;)
But i will not be practising for such an award as..
1. I suck at fast snare rolls :P and am more of a tom-tom man.
2.Practising and keeping good time with a band is more important than fast snare technique to me.
3.I would rather win a pie eating comp as its more fun to practice at. :)

I suspect this is aimed at me. I didn't say that everyone who uses these things is a 'speed freak'. I at no point made any generalising 'stereotyping' statement about the people who use the Drumometer. I did say that I think that 'speed competitions' are a freak show, but that doesn't go to the musicality of specific competitors. I think the competitions ARE just a curiousity - like the strongman at a fair and should be considered in the same light as, say, food-eating competitions.

My primary fear is -- I said above -- that "too much attention being given to 'BPMs' will result in lopsided development for many young players." I'm not suggesting that young players should not be interested in playing fast. I'm not even suggesting that trying to play fast necessarily results in an unbalanced approach. I am saying that it is my opinion that it is necessary to practice (and encourage as a teacher) a balanced approach to the instrument. I am saying that as much (or more) time and energy ought to be spent on developing listening/accompaniament skills, and rhythmic and melodic phrasing. 'Feel' will get you more gigs than chops.  

If what you say about your friends is true, then I wasn't speaking about them. I was speaking about many young drummers (some of whom I have taught or had contact with) who are already enamoured with speed. I'm talking about those young players who (like I used to) tend to over-emphasise speed and chops as opposed to control, accuracy and, above ALL, feel.

I also suggested that instead of focussing on 'beats per minute', that a metronome (and a little math) could provide the same service as the Drumometer while keeping the 'speed' within a musical context. Machine-gun like blasts of single-strokes have limited function if they are not comprised of subdivisions of musical/cultural time. I'm talking 'tempos' not 'speeds'. You see what I mean?
 


Agreed. I'm not saying that speed is not an important aspect of drumming technique. I'm only saying that it is likely that without the proper context and guidance many young players will forsake other important aspects of drumming and musicianship in "the pursuit of extreme speed."  

are we talking about developing speed, or moving product?

Alright very good points from all of you.  I appreciate your input.  I purposely did not elaborate on my initial post, because I wanted to get everyones gut reaction to this new "sport" drumming cult or whatever you want to call it.

But now here are my thoughts on this:
First of all, if speed were the only thing that I was looking for in drums, then so be it.  If in fact this was the only thing I wanted to get out of the drums, well thats my prerogative or exclusive right.  If I were a beginner on the drums I would expect my teacher or fellow drummers not to snear or be upset because of all those negative implications you guys mentioned, but rather encouragement as well as suggestions on the other awesome aspects of the drums.  Every drummer is different from each other because there are certain aspects that they each train on more than the other, and this brings character to their own style.  Though I might be limiting myself from the infinite other possiblities which the drums have to offer such as dynamics and musicality, this speed drumming happens to be one aspect that I'm specifically interested in.

Now as far as the "balanced approach" on the drums.  I fully agree.  The best drummers know how to do it all, and can adapt to any kind of music thrown at them.  Unfortunately whenever the word "speed" shows up in a topic, the first things that come to mind of a well trained drummer is "When are these people gonna stop looking for shortcuts when more practice will always be the answer".

But since my initial post was simply an interest in the drumometer.  I sort of let you guys ASSUME away, and assume away you did.  Fortunately, for me I have all the rudiments down.  I've gone through Georgle Lawrence Stone's book several times, and still counting.  Practicing is fun for me.  Since I don't have a drumometer I actually have been practicing fast singles with a metronome.  I have already noticed a difference in how smooth my playing is getting.  The ostinatos are just streaming out effortlessly now that I've been building my fingers up.  

And this leads me into my next point about improving your speed beyond your normal threshold.  Someone might say that if all you practiced was speed, then your technique will suffer.  This maybe so if it applied to the whole drumset every time you practiced.  However with the drumometer and single strokes, it is just common sense that you will never be able to get faster unless your technique improves.  Faster strokes can only happen when the stick height becomes lower, and each stick rebounds up to the same height, and the hands and fingers are working together very delicately yet very controlled.  So basically what happens is that you eventually meet up with much better technique whether you want to or not, if your seeing improvements in your speed.  

I am obviously all about the WFD, and the fun and excitement of that avenue of drums just as much as the next person who might be just as excited playing paradiddle permutations.  I think that this aspect of drumming unfortunately has a bad wrap.  And it's all the very experienced drummers who snear at it instead of looking for ways that it can be used usefully for the student to improve everything.  I think that everyone that sees it with this black cloud hovering over it should think twice about how useful it can be.  Go to the WFD website watch all the videos there.  Read Art Verdi's opinions on the Drumometer here: http://www.artverdi.com/
I don't work for them nor do I even own a drumometer, but I'm very interested in it and it potential as a measuring device.  I've heard it's like  a video game, and you get addicted and you want to go for higher scores everytime.  I don't know about you but this sounds like great incentive to want to practice even more!  Show me any body who can do 900 - 1000 strokes a minute with absolutely horrible technique and I'll be extremely surprised.  But, I know you won't find anybody.

Now, I do not entirely disagree with some of the people who think it can be harmful.  If your a new student to the drums and do not have a drum instructor who can guide your technique, then I would not suggest playing fast as you can to obtain better technique.  Great technique should be honed by guidance of a great teacher, and then the student can further hone this technique with speed.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. I've seen some drummers who were WICKED fast, but whose technique looked awful: forced and tense. But, they managed to played a LOT of notes. Did that improve their technique overall? Not so far as I could tell.

Speed is only ONE component of good technique. And in my professional experience, it's been one of the least important. YMMV.

To my knowledge, drummers are the only musicians (if I can use that term in this context) who place such an emphasis on sheer speed. I know of no violin contests where they count how many times a violinist can draw a bow over an open A string.

There are fast guitarists, to be sure, but they are known for being able to play MELODIES fast. Nobody gets written up in Guitar Player for being able to play the fastest succession of the same note - which is what these drum-pad oriented contests measure.

Sorry, but that stuff is SO far from MUSIC I just can't get interested.

But - you raise a very valid point, and it's one I've stated often and will continue to defend: ANY pleasure a person derives from playing drums is valid. Whether it's playing at Carnegie Hall, headbanging with buddies, or simply melting the rubber off your practice pad with your sheer speed, if you're enjoying yourself playing drums, it's a good thing.

We don't all want the same things from drums, nor should we.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to my study of the use of paradiddles in the music of ancient Mesopotamians...   ;)

To me the drumometer (I have one) is just another tool. I would not trade my metronome for one, but if you can afford one, it does have a place in the practice room.

The drumometer gives QUANTATIVE output on precision that you can't get from a metronome alone. In other words, you can play along slopply to a metronome and it will never tell. The drumometer / metronome  combination does tell.

Watch Art Verdi demostrate in his video how a metronome-drumometer combination can be used to develop precise subdivision of the meter .. it is more than just about speed.

But as for speed ... hey, it is a crowd pleaser.

In my opinion drummers are suppose to be able to go fast, and working on your speed chops is a valid exercise.

Look at the drummer who gets the most respect: Is it Ringo or Buddy Rich?

Mister solid groove in the pocket Ringo was put down (by some) for playing too simply. He didn't have enough chops (for some people at least, personally I love him), never showed his speed. Drummers need the deep pocket, but also need to be able to chop it up, if they want to. If they never show their stuff, they will be suspect (is that all he can do?), even if their time and musical taste is imaculate. The audience wants to know there is some power under the hood.
 
 ;D

I can see that happening. I think everyone would be curious as to the speed they have reached in single stroke rolls.

I'm glad this came up.  I was thinking "where's all the WFD stuff?"  Anyways.

I for one like to blaze.  I'm really not that fast, but I like to practice it.  I think it's fun as hell.  It just makes everything else easier to play.  Do I try to burn in every song I play?  Of course not.

Plus I'm getting sick of be burned by all the kids out there, so I wanna be packing what they are.  I'm in an original band, and these little sh*ts these days are so FAST.  Well, like gobarr, I've studied a lot of things and when I'm not at my drums- practicing, burning is easy to keep the rust off the hands.  Should I be practicing my sight reading?  Probably.  But I can't watch TV and sight read at the same time.  Hee hee.

I also think it's kinda neat to NOT think about subdivisions and time when you are playing.  Just burn and groove at the same time, without thinking.

I can't help but sense a slight bit of a disconcerting tone.  When your looking for fault in the semantics of my writting.   I can't help but realize that you must have a pretty strong opinion on this subject, otherwise you wouldn't have taken the time to quote so much of my previous post, combing through all my words with a clear purpose to find inconsistencies, lowering my integrity.  It works especially great when you juxtapose this type of breaking down with your own counter arguments.   Actually I didn't mind this at all.  Your raised very good points and gave me a lot of things to think about.  A lot of the stuff I was saying I admit was not well thought out.  But it also makes posting here that much more fun.  Because now we get to think before we just start blowing air.


Now if I said "Boomka was sneering and upset at me" somewhere in my post I aplogize.  I was making a general statement based on opinions of drummer friends and also other posts I've read on it.  So, I apologize then since it must of sounded like I was talking directly to you.  So I see that I need to back general statements with the strong facts and evidence or perhaps not even make them at all.  I sneer at myself for assuming general sneeriosity  ;).


This statistical facts like this works great for those that place importance in them without really digging into them.  Fortunately I think people might finally be catching onto the fact that statistics can be twisted to fit something that looks quite appealing or quite negative.  This doesn't mean at all that they're not true.  But stating that no one on this thread was taking an affirmative stance really doesn't mean much to me if none of these people have experience with this device or own one themselves.  Now it appears that bongo, who owns one, left a nice post advocating its usefulness along with good points after your post.  
So now, heres the statistics I think are important:
1 : 1 for persons owning the device and also satisfied with it.
So far thats a pretty good ratio, or 100%.  I'm still waiting for posts from people that own one and are dissatisfied.


I don't doubt that these guys had poor technique and were still able to play very fast.  Before you read my next point, as hard as it might be just take away all personal opinions with regard to WFD or speed drumming.  Were these "guys" you speak of able to play 900-1000 beats in one minute?  Chances are they would never last at their top speed past 30 seconds if they had poor technique and were straining themselves.  Now I can't completely assume that they couldn't do that, I just really doubt it.  Give me a drumometer reading of 900+ on their speed for a whole minute and then I'll be a believer that that kind of speed can be obtained with poor technique.  I did make it clear at the end of my previous post that beginners should practice speed under the guidance of a well trained intructor so that technique does not get out of hand.  I'm not a beginner, or a teacher, so I'm not quite as concerned about its affects on a beginner.  This may be a perfect device to get once you've gotton your technique down and are ready to take it to a new level.  I am simply curious about this device, and I do feel like it would be beneficial tool as bongo has stated.


A very valid argument!  Why spend the money for a device when you could essencially reap the same benefits from a metronome while at the same time learning to make your subdivisions very even for the benefit of musicality.  Well if I thought the metronome was a completely useless tool, I would never purchase one.  But I believe there will be benefit gained beyond what the very dry metronome offers.  So I see it as a tool just like the metronome.  For example one very good excercise I learned that the drumometer can help you do that the metronome cannot as Art Verdi demonstrates on the WFD website is Flat Flams.  The drumometer will tell you if your hitting your sticks exactly together or not.  If you flat flam 10 times in a row you should expect the number "10" to show up on the drumometer and any number higher than that means that you were flamming instead and need to practice more control.  Though since the metronome will never be replaced and is obviously the best tool for drummers I would like to try using it in unison with a drumometer.  I think it would keep things interesting, and give me visual incentive to keep pushing it up a notch.  It's variety and uniqueness I think would provide a little more of a spice in each practice session.

Now obviously a lot of what I think about this device is opinion since of course I do not own one myself.  And even if I did own one, it would still be opinions.  But I plan on getting one sometime.  And I will post about how it has helped or hurt me.  I do think its worth investigating.

But besides boomka and myself, I still want to know peoples opinions of this device, especially from those who own one.

I'd just like to buy one to say I have one.  How much money are they?

Be fun as hell at parties.

And I FULLY AGREE on how fast can you play for a whole minute.  You need very efficient technique- end of story.  Now does that technique translate to a drumset or a cymbal as opposed to a rubber pad?  I think the "feel" one needs to develop on the pad with their hands and fingers needs to be again translated to the kit.  At least that's been my experience.  

It's a great feeling to have that effortless balance happening at very fast speeds.  It takes lots of practice, and by all means I have a long way to go, but it makes playing the faster rock (where I've noticed it on some Travis Barker tunes) much more comfortable.  Plus it looks cool doing really fast riding with one hand instead of two (just my opinion).

I think a drumometer would be good for every drummer to explore.  You can't say you hate something until you live with it a while.  Doing that is closed minded.   I think it's actually more important for someone more seasoned than a beginner or intermediate though.  Hey, I'm getting older... if I can expend less effort playing drums, I'm all for it.

Your ears can tell. But you have to train them to hear as precisely as possible and train your muscles and body to 'feel' the subdivisions. I guess what I'm saying is that instead of looking over at the Drumometer for verification, close your eyes and listen really carefully and 'feel' the time in your body. We can manage so much more than we give ourselves credit for. This process of trying to strengthen the concentration and energy put into the senses and into combining them (creating one's own synaesthesia) will yield results in other aspects of one's life where a WFD has no use.


Surely. Speed is part of the game. I haven't said at any point that speed is unnecessary. I have said that I think an over-emphasis on speed is detrimental to the development of musicianship in drummers. I have also said that the WFD doesn't hold - in my opinion, of course - any clear advantage over the methods I have elaborated.

And as for Buddy; sure he was fast - BUT - it wasn't all speed - it was phrasing, and melody, and dynamics that made him so unbelievable. His 'speed' was always in the context of 'music' - not just calisthenics.

I'm always impressed by the sheer dedication and determination these WFD cats have.

They are now going for the 1200 per minute threshold.

That's 20 single strokes per second!

There's a lot of practice time invested to reach that.

Incredible.

I thought it was quite obvious the context I was using the sentence in.  Perhaps you though I was implying that my rights were somehow literally being violated.  I used the word to make bring the point across.  If I decided to “invoke” my rights as to the decision of combing my hair to the left as oppose to the right as a point for my argument then so be it.  Whether or not you think it was a valid way to “bolster” a point is simply speaking for yourself.    But, since you like to take words out of context, I can see your point in that regard.  Frankly, this particular point of yours is stale now.



Hmm, did I mention your point about my use of the word “rights” is stale now?  But besides that, you make a very bold statement here indeed.  In fact so bold that it does nothing but to reduce your own integrity.  Using statements without the slightest backing of facts as a point in an argument holds no weight.  Are you grasping for straws here?  I’ll even let you quote for me on my thoughts about this statement:  


I do not work for them, own this device, or even have experience with it.  In no way have I ever implied that people should go out and purchase one for themselves.  I do happen to have a personal zealous curiosity of this device and I would like to purchase one to see for myself whether or not it is a waste of money.   If it is a waste of money, then I will eventually find this out on my own, and will gladly come here and post my opinions based on first hand experience.



Once again I am not a promoter of this device and therefore am not going around “recommending” this device to anyone I know or to the people reading this thread.  I feel it can be very useful tool and would like to find out for myself.  Once I purchase one, or borrow whichever might come first, my conclusions will be based on first hand experience and objective facts, and will not be drawn from my own subjective opinions nor anyone elses.


I believe that control, technique, and speed will benefit from this device.  From these 3 concepts you can benefit in almost every aspect in drumming.  Now, these are what I merely what I believe, wait until I get a hold of a drumometer myself and then my opinions may change.  Although the metronome can be used for the same purpose, it is not my intention to replace my metronome with it.  The metronome is here to stay, and I will say with confidence that if you could contrast their usefulness on a bar graph, the the metronome would surely tower over the drumometer in usefulness.  I am interested in the ideah that it may keep things interesting, and provide incentive to practice more.  I like video games, and I like getting higher scores everytime I play.

So hopefully I can simplify the root of our arguments here:

---I believe the drumometer can be used as a device where it’s user will benefit in control, technique, and especially speed.

---Most of your focus lies on how the metronome will be a much better tool.  You believe it’s not worth buying a dromometer because the metronome can help you hone your skills in all the areas that I’m saying the drumometer will.  Not only that but the metronome can help develop your other senses such as hearing and touch.  A two fold benefit right?

Well I believe that there is nothing wrong with what you said.  So what is our argument?  It is the fact that you feel the dromometer is a useless device because the metronome will allow to gain all the mentioned benefits even better than the drumometer can, and with a much cheaper price.  Also that using this device might actually be detrimental to ones development as a drummer.  These things may be true, but I will find out with actual objective evidence after I obtain one.  As far as I’m concerned your opinions will never hold any weight with me because your basing your arguments on opinions because you have never owned or used this device.  Likewise, I have never owned one, and therefore my opinions are simply that and should mean nothing to you.  Once I have actually obtained one, I will post on what I think it has done for me.  We find ourselves with diametric positions.  Our opinions about drumometer hold no weight in each others eyes and therefore will be of no use to continue arguing opinion for opinion.  It is obvious that we will not find an agreement boomka.  Although living life vicariously through the advice of others can be done, I choose to find out for myself sometimes.  And this is one of those situtations.  No lesson is learned better than personal experience.  If what you say is true, then let me fail and be a testiment for others.

Once again I will say that I do not recommend that anyone to go out and buy a drumometer.  I think that it will be best used for those who are intermediate or advance players who want to hone their technique, speed, and control.  As a matter of fact if you are unsure, then don’t buy it at all.  Use a metronome because it’s the best tool out there.   I’m willing to take a chance on the drumometer.  And if I find that in fact it does produce beneficial results, I will certainly be posting them and also recommending it.  If I come to realize there is no observable benefits and or worse, my technique suffers, I will certainly post that.

This being said boomka there is a point where I believe it becomes irrational to argue with someone who is at diametric positions with your own.  It become wasted energy.  I just hope you don’t believe that when I don’t respond to your next reply, that its not because I believe your right.  I just know that we will not agree.  I will read your response but will not reply to your post unless you add some new points about the actual crux of the argument and not about the semantics of my words. -- argue about something besides my use of the the word “rights”.  Give some more reasons why I shouldn't get a drumometer instead of reasons why my points are inadequate.  

Untrue. Used, discarded as pointless.

Been there, Done That, Set a World record that the WFD doesn't recognize and beat a current World record they don't recognize either!

720 singles in one minute using a drumometer and a double pedal. Where is the World record you say?  I was 8 months pregnant so I'd say that being the World's fastest pregnant drummmer was a record in it's self.

Also,
  Beat Seth davis's double stroke record and they wouldn't except it.

Sold my drumometer and have been much happier!

Wow, hot topic with some very good point and counter-point going on!

This topic seems to be on a 6 month cycle; every 6 months it comes up so here is my $.02 for this round.

If you want to be the WFD, that’s cool there is a lot to be said for the perseverance it takes to get there. I've seen some of these guys and that aspect is impressive to say the least.

But I will say I view it as a niche thing. Just because they can play 1200 bpm doesn't make them great drummers nor will they get gigs on that alone. In fact I kind of see it as a non-factor in that sense.

Since the HR Derby was on last night I'll use this analogy:

If you are a ball player and can hit a 550ft home run, great, that is really impressive. But if you are batting .150 you aren't going to play at an organized level. Now if you are Barry Bonds and hit a 550ft HR and still bat in the .300s then that is what is even more impressive and it will keep you in demand as a player. Being well rounded and using as many tools as possible is the key.

Most bands want to hire drummers who keep good time; in fact most leaders prefer the drums to play less.

Being the fastest is cool but it is only one facet of technique and certainly only one facet of being a drummer or better yet a musician.

From what I've seen and read, Johnny Rabb and Mike Mangini are great drummers who, in addition to having other skills play real fast, they aren't great drummers because they can play really fast. The balance of importance to me is in the "other skills" department.  

When someone likes to do something, like biking or running... Then let him be and leave that person free of comments and things like that. This and that and speed blabla .. Who cares??! Let him buy the drumometer.

:)

So that's interesting DrummerMom.  Possessing a drumometer somehow hampered your happiness.  

You've been warned folks -- the drumometer is cryptonite for your happiness!!

Yeah, that's interesting Lori... you were into that stuff.

Hmmm, maybe it's time to get rid of my twin effects pedal and gajate brackets.  I think I'd be a lot happier.

anyone else with a drumometer?

Playing fast, fun.
Playing in time, useful.
Playing fast and in time, useful.
Playing slow and in time, useful.

Playing fast by itself seems pointless to me, and especially to dedicate so much time to it when playing syncopation and good time/grooves is so much more rewarding for making you a musician and not just an artillery unit. If you win a competition and some cash, congratulations. But if your looking for gigs or to contribute to the art form known as "music" your time is probably spent better elsewhere.

I'd probably play one for the hell of it to see how fast I can go if I saw one at a convention or whatever. But I can't see owning one since it just measures how fast you can go, which, as was said before, can be done by playing to one of records recorded in the last two centuries. It's kind of like jogging on top of a weight scale. There are probably better running surfaces to use before you need to measure youself again.

My two cents,
Jayme

Contests that would make much more sense to me than World's Fastest Drummer:

1.  World's most in-time drummer.  
2.  World's most creative drummer.
3.  World's most reliable drummer.  
4.  World's most enjoyed drummer (by audiences composed purely of fans, not musicians).  
5.  World's most employed drummer.  
6.  World's most financially successful drummer.
7.  World's most recorded drummer.  
8.  World's most unique drummer.  

oh, and World's Shortest Adult Drummer (cuz I might win ... LOL).

THESE things tell me more than mere speed.  I will confess that being able to play very fast is SURE to be a valuable practice technique.  If you can build up to playing it with control at a very fast pace, you can more likely play it with greater ease at a slower pace.  But speed for the mere sake of speed takes drumming from the arena of music to the arena of an atheletic event.  If I'd wanted that, I'd have taken up something other than drumming.  

For what it's worth, here's my thoughts....

The problem I see with the drumometer is , to me , it breeds inefficiency.  If you can play 600 single strokes a minute, why not play 300 double strokes. The end result is the same, if your technique is correct, there should be no audible difference.  Let the drumhead do some of the work.  I also can't think of any band context where I would use such extreme speeds, either live or studio, except for a chopsfest solo and this would just be in short bursts.  I think if I was playing a gig, soloing, getting the crowd into it, doing some visuals, and all of the sudden I started playing singles on the snare as fast as I can for one minute, the patrons would end up next door and the club owner would be chucking empty Jack bottles at me..

                                   Just my 0.02

                                     Dave

I can see it now—a cattle call at a local liberal arts college music department, where applicants for filling seats in the audience are hooked to a polygraph and instructed to demonstrate ability on each of five basic instruments: an acoustic guitar, a bass viol, a snare drum, a piano, and a trumpet.  Any detectable proficiency (or detectable disguising of same) on two instruments disqualifies the individual from participating in the audience. ;D

I agree with the basis of your post nonetheless.

Cute  ;D

MAN- you guys are passionate in this subject! Either for or against! :).
I caught some of the WFD at the NAMM show Sunday, it was interesting, and at times even humorus! Even though it is not everyone's cup of tea, it is very interesting to watch! Some one described it as an "extreme sport", and yes I agree with that after seeing it live. It has some entertainment value for sure. There was a small, but enthusiastic crowd cheering these guys on.

Any value? It's just another tool (albeit a small one). But still a tool. IMHO  :)

And IMHO you have summed it up perfectly with that statement.   8)

So far looks like most of the responses here are opinions about this device.  I prefered to hear from only those that own it.  I think the opinions from those that do not own it have been pretty much covered now.

I haven't read this all because its quite lengthy, but if you want to hear some f**king fast double kick, go to www.psycroptic.com and check out some of the songs. I saw them live a couple of times, and its all ligit... i can't believe it. Check the songs out: Colour of Sleep, Carnival of Vulgarity, the singing might not do it for you... but this is a drumming forum, and this guy is FAST!

I'm currently taking lessons with Eric Okamoto, the 5th fastest singles in the world. :)

They are currently working on a MODEL II unit.  They have recently modified the original drumometer unit and added a metronome to it.  I was told the new Model II will be available in 90 days.  This will be great, two useful tools combined into one unit.  I'm glad I waited to buy one, so now I can get this new unit.

Wouldn't it have been fun to see Buddy Rich (in his prime) shred on a drumometer??????  

 ;D

I'm with you, Jon.   8)

I originally created this thread to get opinions from those who own a drumometer themselves.  Though admittingly this was not evidently clear in my initial statement.  So, I will restate my initial statement.  

For those of you who own a drumometer, I was curious to see what you scored with this device.  And I would also like your opinions of the drumometer.  Has it helped you, made you worse, was it a waste of money, etc.   If you don't own one or have any experience with this device it will not help me if you post, sorry.  Thanx.

So please, help contribute to my thread rather than arbitrary opinions without valid information to back it.  I do not mind that people are against the WFD and that it is a waste, but posting just to state this opinion does nothing to help the forum.      

Tiger Bill's drummer's web site has some information on the drumometer www.tigerbill.com

the best ive done was 564 in a minute ;)

art was this years wfd he got 1100 in a minute

Yeah I was told that there was only a top %2 or something that can even get 900 or above in the world.  I'm working on 900 myself.  If I can work up to playing 32 notes at 113 bpm for a minute then I'll have played 904 hits.  Currently I'm only up to about 840 hits per minute.

The WFD has a thread on the Pearl Forum with video stuff also.  Click on Hook's first post http://209.25.203.234/showthread.php?t=58346

i bet my toes are the fastest here.

I'm going for the record with feet. I'm almost there actually if not there now. The record for single strokes is 1031 in 60 sec which is a hair over doing 16ths at 250. I can do em at 270 which would get me way over 1031. I just need to get the drumometer. There is nothing silly about the drumometer. With useing a metronome it is a great teaching tool. Say your doing you 16ths at a comfortable speed to the metronome for one min. If the number doesn't come out the same every time then your slack. So if you don't want the drumometer thats like saying your content with your slackness. Also there is no seperate r and left side. It's just a simple trigger that is used. Man drumometers are currently unavalible right now.

But with a metronome your have a standard (the click) to keep you "in check".  The Drumomamameter (or whatever it's called) only counts the number of strokes without any care for steadiness, evenness, etc.  You could play any number of strokes at any variance of tempo for that minute and all it does is simply count how many time a stick hit the head.  Talk about "If the number doesn't come out the same every time then your slack".

Maybe I'm not understanding your point in your post.

LeftHandFirst was refering to using the metronome along with the Drumometer in order to make sure your playing the correct number of beats.  In other words setting the metronome at 100 bpm and playing 16th notes for a minute will give you 400 beats.  Therefore if the drumometer does not show 400 beats then you know that you need to increase your smoothness or that you sped up or slowed down somewhere and didn't keep perfect tempo.  The drumometer is a tool that is best used along side a metronome.  That is why the drumometer is unavailable as a matter of fact.  They are currently making a new model which will have a metronome built into the model.  

   I don't get it. I can always tell if I'm playing proper time to a metronome, even if I'm doing fast single strokes at like 200bpm or something. It's not that hard to tell if you're on time with a click.

Hippie are you doing 16th notes at 200 bmp?  It get a little bit more difficult when you start pressing up the speed.  Singles at 200bpm is very easy obviously. But Hippie, its not just the accuracy aspect that the drumometer helps you with, but the consistency.  If you were to accidentally buzz any of your strokes the drumometer would pick those extra strokes up and give you a score higher than what you should have gotten.  If your dynamics were a bit sloppy the drumometer would not pick up some of your strokes and therefore give you a smaller score than you would expect.  

One of the drumometer's main purposes though it to let you blaze away as fast as you can with or without reference to a metronome and it would tell you how many strokes you accomplished in a set amount of time.  The fact that you get a score, makes it similar to a video game an thus making you want to get a higher score.  It's a tool that can offer incentive to get faster.  

Whether you see this tool as relatively useful as a pooper scooper or a swiss army knife is up to each individual.

  I still don't understand. I've never accidently 'buzzed' a stick while practicing single strokes. And if I did I wouldn't need a machine to tell me that I did it.

Hippie, since you obviously beleive that you can do without a drumometer then it does not benefit you to state this opinion.  I really do believe you when you say that you can do without the help of a "machine to tell you".  Your obviously a skilled drummer.  Thank you for you opinion, however,  I created this thread for those who either own one themselves, or who are interested in it.  

Gobarr, what kind of hand technique are you using when you are shooting for these high speeds?  I'd really appreciate a little insight into what you have learned.

Felix, I have learned a great deal from many WFD competitors as well as personal experience.  I took the time to email a few competitors and get their take on technique and also how they trained.  Sam LeCompte, the winner of last NAMM's WFD said he used primarily his middle fingers to get his scores.  He said that he did lots of short runs at 10 secs. to establish a baseline for what speed he had the potential to achieve.  Once he did that he would just work on endurance by pushing that same speed past 10 seconds until he got to 1 minute.  My drum teach Eric Okamoto who won 1st place 2 Namm's ago tends to use his all of his fingers while using a modified Moeller technique to help him out.  Mike Mangini uses only his wrists to move the sticks while tencing up his whole arm very tightly to achieve this.  I think its very neat that all the competitors seem to have their own technique that seems to work for them.  

What I have mostly learned is that fingers seem to be one of the winning factors in the WFD.  Jotan the world record holder used his fingers to achieve his record of 1199 strokes in a minute ( nearly 20 strokes a second ).  In my experience the best way to work the technique your fingers and to make them work best for you is to play at a slow tempo making perfect strokes for 10 - 15 minutes straight using only the muscles in your fingers.  Then gradually picking it 2 or 3 bpm on the metronome and playing for another 10 - 15 minutes.  In this way you work the muscle memory into your fingers and then speed comes naturally.  I have noticed that once I work it into my muscle memory and let my fingers do the work I was able to go for extended periods of time without getting tired and my speed picked up considerably.  The hardest part of it was keeping my wrist muscles from turning on and tensing up.  If you do like my instructor Eric, then you can use your wrists in conjunction with the fingers by using Moeller.  In other words the wrist would be doing a stroke in place of the fingers (allowing the fingers to rest) and then the fingers would back the wrist stroke up with 2 strokes before the wrist came back in again (or wrist - downstroke and fingers - 2 upstrokes).

There's so much to learn, and I've only just grazed the surface.  But, I would have to say that the best way to learn is to try out everything and even come up with your own unique ideas and try them out.  You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.  

1.  World's most in-time drummer.    ROLAND TR-808
2.  World's most creative drummer.   Tie - Ringo, Jimbo, Bozio
3.  World's most reliable drummer.    Jim Keltner
4.  World's most enjoyed drummer (by audiences composed purely of fans, not musicians).  Carlos Vega or Jeff Porcaro
5.  World's most employed drummer.   Chambers or Colaiuta
6.  World's most financially successful drummer.  That is a tough one
7.  World's most recorded drummer.   Purdie  or Elvin or Fongheiser
8.  World's most unique drummer.    Bozio

oh, and World's Shortest Adult Drummer BVSCfanatic!!!

i've never had a go on a drumometer, but i'd like to. i think it could be a very useful tool when used in conjunction with a metronome, and provided that good technique is maintained.

Chris,

The newest model coming out soon will have a metronome built in.  

Most financially successful could be Phil Collins.  He's won a bunch of Grammy's, an Oscar and does a lot of composition, performing and producing.  Just a thought.

I think either Ringo or Larry Mullen Jr. would beat Phil in this 'category'.

EDIT:  Well, I stand corrected:

Here are the 40 richest British rock stars [Except for the Irish U2 - Paddy O'Ed.] according to net worth, estimated by Business Age:

1. Paul McCartney, $750 million

2. Elton John, $500 million

3. Mick Jagger, $225 million

4. Keith Richards, $220 million

5. Tom Jones, $149 million

5 (tie). Engelbert Humperdinck, $149 million

7. David Bowie, $145 million

8. Sting, $143 million

8 (tie). Phil Collins, $143 million

10. George Harrison, $128 million

11. Ringo Starr, $111 million

12. Eric Clapton, $108 million

13. U2, $105 million each

13 (tie). George Michael, $105 million

15. Rod Stewart, $101 million

16. Charlie Watts (Rolling Stones), $96 million

17. Cliff Richard, $89 million

18. David Gilmour (Pink Floyd), $86 million

19. Robert Plant and Jimmy Page (Led Zeppelin), $85 million each

20. Ronnie Wood (Rolling Stones), $82 million

20 (tie). Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits), $82 million

22. Roger Waters (Pink Floyd), $74 million

23. John Deacon, Brian May, and Roger Taylor (Queen), $67 million each

24. Nick Mason (Pink Floyd), $64 million

25. Rick Wright (Pink Floyd), $61 million

26. Jim Kerr (Simple Minds), $60 million

27. Mick Hucknall (Simply Red), $57 million

28. Van Morrison, $52 million

29. The Bee Gees, $49 million each

30. Chris de Burgh, $45 million

31. Victoria Beckham (Spice Girls), $37 million

32. Noel Gallagher (Oasis), $36 million

33. Dave Stewart (Eurythmics), $34 million

34. Melanie Chisholm and Melanie Brown (Spice Girls), $33 million each

35. Emma Bunton (Spice Girls), $31 million

36. Liam Gallagher (Oasis), $28 million

37. Geri Halliwell (ex-Spice Girl), $25 million

38. Annie Lennox (Eurythmics), $22 million

39. Fatboy Slim, $21 million

40. Robbie Williams, $16 million

Man, I can't believe Jim Kerr is on that list, let alone so high!  Haven't heard anything abou the Simple Minds in years.

Update on the Drumometer:
Modern Drummer Feb. '06 issue p.138 has an ad with Joe Morello endorsing the Drumometer as "a great tool."

I know some of you have expressed opinions that the Drumometer is pretty much worthless, the idea being it is a device used to pursue speed for just speed's sake.

Maybe with Joe's endorsement the devise will get a little respect as a tool that can be used in a variety of ways to improve techique.

Does wfd mean worlds fastest drummer?

I'd rather be a drummer who can groove musically with other musicians than a "freak" that nobody wants to play with like...hmm,lets see..ok, Virgil Donante..all he's ever going to do is clinics and MD festivals...with what, a couple CDs no one but drummers are going to buy? Even Weckl(whos badder than that?) realized this.I find as I get older, making a song, any song, sound good is the best reward in this craft.
Short and Sweet....  

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!  You got to grove and that is impossible to do in a speed contest.  

I'd love to see some new events in the olympics.  
1. Speed Drumming.
2. Endurance Drumming - keep it at 900BPM for days until they pass out.
3. Introduce some compulsory techniques like in figure skating.  Maybe try to pull off Steve Gadds fancy ratamacues around the set or Horacio Hernandez's indepent limb stuff. Scores for artistic merit and technical difficulty.
etc.  
4. Freestyle - Scores for artistic merit and technical difficulty.
etc.  

We could come up with cool names like triple lutz and sow-cow, etc.  Ahh, I'm starting to bore myself - I better go home.  

Wanna hear me play Take the "A" Train?

Wanna hear it again?

Actually I would.  

You missed a note.

i wonder if they do steriods testing for WFD contests?

actually, that'd be the day if they took themselves that seriously... ::) :P ;) ;D

Mike Mangini beat out Art Verdi with more than 1200 hits in a minute's time

wonder what buddy would have done? ;D
i doubt he would care :D ;D ;)

Got that right.

Buddy's the reason the drumometer exists. If it weren't for his comment to Barrett Deems at the Chicago Namm show ages ago, Boo never would have had the idea to invent it.

Buddy wouldn't have been in the running against the guys winning today, and that's not to take anything from him. He was an incredible player and one of a kind.

Yep.  I've heard the Buddy/Barrett/Boo NAMM story.  I still doubt Buddy would have cared.

thats true is'nt it?
i knew that, but had forgotten.
good one.

I think Buddy was very competitive by nature and would have smoked anybody who thought they could play faster than he.
Witness Buddy versus Ed Shaunessy on the Tonight Show, Ed with 2 bassdrums and Buddy with one.
And it wouldn't be on just a practice pad but on his snare during a drum battle.

That's my opinion.

As a 14 year old... there are too many kids caught up in speed. I don't really care how fast someone is really, it dont matter.

What a contradiction
First I read about drummers saying Buddy didn't care about speed and Drum Meters
Than I read about how Buddy would smoke out any drummer that claims he's faster than he
Are there two Buddy Riches or what?
I constantly read about these contradictions
Which way was it Ya or Nine?  ha ha ha

It's speculation since he's not here, but Buddy was the first to admit he was the best drummer in the world, and the fastest. If he had a machine that could have actually proved it, or not, he might of jumped in and showed all what he was made of, or possible backed off from the fastest claim and just maintained he was the best.

 ;D

Buddy was pretty arrogant, so you can believe that.  He was naturally very talented on the drums, you can believe that too.

Well guys I couldn't help myself and bought one last weekend.

I have been working with it for 3 days now.

It is well made and I think it will last *probably outlast me*

It is indeed a wonderful tool and I will be using the machine to improve my technique and of course SPEED and POWER!!!!

I went to the Tiger Bill, Art Verdi masterclass clinic last weekend and saw these guys in action.  I gotta say I am not worthy!  But I was totally inspired and with the drumometer and some proper instruction I am on my way again.  Let the journey begin!

Oh, the clinic- right... I almost forgot.  I think I should find a suitable thread and post some pictures of me and our own Drumodad there (who has some cool technique himself btw) with Art and Tiger Bill.  This school of technique is awesome (but freakin' difficult).  I was floored.

Oh and the drumometer has a built in metronome with a pedal activated reset switch- well made too.

Really, it's cool guys.

You set your tempos and then play your stickings to a click... you can speed it up, slow it down or turn it off (the click) and the machine will still keep count.  This is important for your meter and execution.

you do this stuff with your feet too (obviously)

Seriously, it's very cool

Here's the pic.

Pretty cool huh?

Isn't anyone going to bag on the drumometer, fastest hands thing? :-\ ;D

Peace,
f.

(http://www.woolyinc.com/images/artverdi.jpg)

Great pic.

Felix, I have the exact same shirt.    ;D

Who's who in that picture?
The guy on the right I think is Art Verdi
I recognise him from the pictures on his site
Where's Tiger Bill?
He has great info on his site about the Billy Gladstone technique

I'm with you felix...
Music is not all about speed and neither is the drumometer.
I own one too and find it a good way to work on precision.
I've said all along, it is just another tool.

Some guys disparage the drumometer and think it focuses too much on speed and not enough on music. It could have that effect I suppose, but it doesn't have to.

The drumometer clues you in to how you rank with some of the fastest cats around. It actually made me realize shear speed was not my strong point, that the pursuit of speed in and of itself was not something I wanted afterall.

I think for someone of my abilities, I might push above my natural 800 bpm. But I believe if I stopped daily hard training, I'd quickly revert back to my normal speed. Hey, I'm no Buddy Rich, and I'm not going to try to be. I'll continue on my craft and make sure when I do play 800 bpm that it comes back into the bar on time.

 :)

This kid has been all over the Internet this week. He's the WFD 16 and under world champion. These clips seem to contradict many things. First of all, he's pretty aggressive on the pad and his endurance is amazing. I don't think I've ever seen anybody keep up a 1000 bpm singles pace for 3 continuous minutes.

He also appears by these #4 and #5 clips to be a very fine jazz drummer. His posts that I have seen on the other forums also demonstrate a smart kid with his head on straight. Thought you might be interested.

1083 singles in 1 minute.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=m9wHxTTdxBA

2080 singles in 2 consecutive minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUWUoEjWvyU

3052 in 3 consecutive minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v7fijN8n40

jazz combo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HrgHt4fQgIw

drum solo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9wJEoG-C2VI

He's pretty fast.  Especially with that left hand traditional grip- I covet that.

What really amazes me the more screw around with a drumometer (besides how incredibly slow I am) is how my good my fulcrum feels at the second joint.  Good power and speed from that position and for years I had teachers telling me to get away from that position.

Now, it's like "whatever is clever"- if it feels good, do it.

Hear hear!

He actually posted here in the "Let's hear/see You Play" section a few nights ago but I can't seem to find them anymore.

I agree, from reading his posts on other forums, he has a good head on his shoulders.

Wow---that is pretty impressive.  I hope he comes back to the Cafe.  I'd like to ask him how in the world he's able to maintain that left hand fulcrum so well, when it appears that he may be predominantly using his thumb, rather than index finger (ala Art Verdi).

(I'm a trad grip player, also, so this stuff fascinates me.   :))

Then again, either my monitor is pretty poor or I'm going blind, so I might not be seeing things correctly (maybe he IS using his index finger predominantly)!   :o   ;)

Hi this is Matt, I was just lurking here and saw your comments. I use almost all thumb now with my traditional grip. Of course when I play matching, things are different. But I only do that during marching season because its the required grip by my band for that.

And I appreciate what you say about the controlled fulcrum, because I think its kinda out of control at high speeds. So I'm still workin' on that of course. One of the reasons I stressed the index less and the thumb more was because with my loose gripping the stick sometimes flew out of my hand.

The other thing of course was that I was not going to get into this one soft dynamic, sticks way down approach that the WFD guys get ragged on about by the haters. I wanted to only compete in an actually manner that I would use in a real life situation. Does that make sense?

But you know I am proud of my WFD association and really detract nothing at all. I have never met a one of those guys who wasn't a great player. I practice speed about a half hour a day. Thats it. This stuff about how we do it for hours and nothing else is a myth.

You know what's really funny is how some people now will see us doing other things, and suddenly they want to get super picky when just a few weeks ago, the common thing was to say we did nothing else. I even had one guy on the Donati forum say I played jazz in a Neal Peart style. So that tells you where some of this is coming from.

Then its "oh look if he didn't spend so much time on WFD, he wouldn't start all his comp phrases on one etc, etc." when sometimes your tryin' to prop a weaker player because that's one of your jobs as a drummer. Just today some of the avant garde Coltrane stuff I did when I was 14 was starting to make the rounds and darned if the first thing somebody said was "because of WFD he can't even find beat one." I had to just laugh that time.

Look, I know I've still got a ton to learn. In fact I still have most of it to learn. But WFD hasn't been a problem. It's helped. Its just that for the first time in our history wer'e havin' this wierd backlash about chops, but strange enough
we make Vinnie and Weckl our idols.

I don't think the drum community as least from the books I've read, has ever said that groove and chops can't work together. In all respect, sometimes when I hear a guy talk about his deep pockets, he's really dragging the tempo, and if your on a gig that's a good way to get fired. Also, its wierd to me that drummers seem scared to fault other drummers who have bad chops because somebody might think they don't understand the big picture or something when its all a glass house to begin with.

WFD is about the perfection of our most basic rudiment. Its an actual building block that is not related to high notes on a trumpet or how many notes a saxophone can play. The single stroke is the endurance thing that gives us the ability to be working drummers. Nobody's going to care much about your big time cool groove if you can't hold it together past a half hour. Is that fair to say?

Finally, detractors are right. Its not music. Its this cool way of getting stuff for practicing. They are also right that music is not a sport. But there isnt a reason why practicing can't be.

Finally, in just my young unenlightened opinion, I think we drummers need to get over our constant feeling that the rest of the world thinks wer'e idiots, and that in some way WFD brings that out. Compared to other instruments we have it made. My dad and grandfather are two of the best trombone players in the world, and they can be incredible for an hour, and most people don't get it. I can play two bars of ding, chinga, ding and the crowd goes nuts.
Drums have enough power to get by alot of things.

Well, sorry for the long post. But I figured I would never have this chance again on drummercafe.

-Matt

Good stuff Matt.

Seems like you have a good head on your shoulders for a "youngen".  ;)

Rock on...

Good stuff indeed, Matt!!  

I'm thrilled to be able to correspond with you on this.  Thanks for sharing both your technique and the insight regarding your personal experience with the WFD.  We've had some healthy debate in past threads here at the Café, regarding WFD, and it's always great to get insight from the folks associated with WFD.   Awesome video, by the way---very helpful to see your technique.  (I'm now convinced that I've GOT to get a better monitor for my PC.  :))

Anyway, I've studied and played traditional grip for many years but recently have attempted to "re-tool" my traditional grip to be able to accomodate more speed and better control (keeping the stick from moving around), which after a few years, I just wasn't happy with and felt like I was "stuck".  The traditional grip I was taught (by Henry Okstel at UNT), focuses on maintaining a strong fulcrum/"grip point" between the two knuckle bones of the index finger and thumb.  As a result, the muscle in the thumb right at/above the knuckle is one of two predominant muscles in the left hand that are being utilized (the other being the muscle between the index finger and thumb, just beneath the "web").  As a result of the grip/primary muscles being used, I get a "banana" shape form that takes place to the thumb (by working to keep the thumb in place, and not moving forward).  Therefore, I find that the thumb can only move so far forward before the fulcrum breaks down and you lose your grip (and the back of the stick pops up, kind of like a see-saw).  So, with this particular traditional grip I'm talking about, in order to keep the fulcrum in place, I have to work to keep the thumb "back".  Thus, the index finger becomes the main finger, with respect to mobility, to help accomodate playing faster (among other things).

At any rate, by employing this trad grip technique over the years, I've reached a plateau with speed (and even with power and overall control).  For example, when playing 32nd note singles at say, BPM = 200 and up, I'm pretty much using the index finger.  I actually experience the opposite of you --- the stick starts to fly out of my hand when I try to get the thumb involved.  So this is why I'm impressed by how well developed your fulcrum is, based on the fact that your thumb IS not only moving, but is the primary mobile finger (as opposed to the index finger, or even middle finger) during your fast singles.  So of course, now I'm trying to figure out exactly where your fulcrum is and what mechanics you're applying.  :)  

How would you describe your fulcrum/"grip point"?  What muscles do you feel are the primary ones being used?  When the thumb "takes over" at high speeds, what (muscle(s)) is keeping the stick in place/keeping it from flying around?

Thanks so much again, for taking the time to share your thoughts.

EDIT -- I meant "16th" notes instead of "32nd" notes

Hey Scott,

You're kinda talkin' to me like I'm some big teacher or something, when I'm still an idiot kid with alot to learn. I don't know how much I can actually say to you except that you might be concentrating too much on my hand. I think wierd things might look like there goin' on because I'm playing at high speeds at fortissimo volume.

I think these speeds are really about the strength you develop in your wrists. Thats where almost all of my concentration is.

Yeah I know alot of WFD guys who are heavy into their fingers, but to me that produces that tiny sound that all the WFD haters always use to push their issues. If you want to make your speed gigworthy IMO the wrists are the key.

As to the other stuff, I'm beginning to see that teachers are necessary of course, but you have to adapt their lessons to certain things for yourself, because we are all different.

Thanks for your kind words.

Good to see you honing your skills with practical applications in mind. You sound really good on your clips - keep it up!

 :) Matt, we're ALL idiot kids with a lot to learn.   8)

Mr. A's right, too, by the way.  

But I've seen your video clips, and buddy, I gotta break it to ya---you got GREAT hands!   ;)  So, it doesn't matter if you're Freddy Gruber or a four year old, with hands like that, I'm inclined to pick your brain.  :)

Anyway, I've been playing for almost 20 years, continue to study with teachers to this day, and I'm still looking to improve.  After seeing your hands working in your videos, I saw something being executed that I've never been able to get working for me.  I've studied with some really good and patient teachers as well, and there's something I'm just not getting.  I appreciate your advice.  It DOES help!

Glad to see you here at the Café!

PS -- I actually meant "16th note singles at quarter note equal to 200 BPM and up" in my previous post.   ;)  

Thanks man. I've heard you play before and your'e great.

Nice stuff.  Well played.

Matt, do you remember the days when you were at a "slow" 800 singles in a minute?  How long did it take you to get 900 and then a 1000?

I have heard from Tiger Bill and Joe Stronsic that there are two kinds muscles people have- fast twitch and slow twitch (endurance type) and one is born with a certain % of each... so really some drummers have the potential to be faster than others.  Although we can all improve on both aspects through isolated practice.

Well, I think the fact that I am a lefty who is trained right handed did alot of good for me. As for the old days I don't really know (lol). My first experience with a drumometer was 10 months ago. The first time I scored pretty high and the second or third day I scored my first 1000. Then I hung in the 900s for awhile until I entered my first contest the next month and scored an even 1000.

After that, it's been kind of a whirlwind of stuff. I also come from a family of world class musicians who are smart about things. This really helps everything.

I only work on speed about a half hour a day. Right now I'm tryin' to get better on mallets.

Scott says Matt uses his thumb and Art Verdi uses index finger
I don't think it really matters what finger one uses
The bottom line of success is what matters
Art Verdi said in the Modern Drummer magazine last summer that Buddy Rich mobilizes the stick using his thumb  but Art Verdi's left hand is the closest I've seen to Buddy Rich's left hand
If one can get that stick moving fast and accurate
That's what matters

I think Art is right about Buddy Rich. But Rich (and Art) have 2 equally skilled hands. My right hand is behind my left a good bit. Right now my biggest thing to get past is at the high speeds my stroke height is a good inch and a half higher with my match grip right hand. Maybe I ought to try the Billy Cobham 2 hand trad grip. But I'm not up to it now for sure. Now that has to be a serious discipline. I can't even imagine it.

I am finding that if I work out with the drumometer every day/every other day for about 20-30 minutes it take me 2 weeks to go up about 5 bpm.  It's killing me.

BUT my forearms are starting to get rock hard.  I'm getting some wicked little guns.  Ego is pretty much decimated, traditional grip is working for me (never used to) I'm very pleased I went down this path.

You may send me this device after you've finished with it :P

Just buy one.  I got mine for 140 dollars.

I had a couple hour session with Tiger Bill last week, it was interesting and very humbling. I didn't play with the Drumometer but for the heck of it once in a while I will set my metronome at 230bpm and play16ths for a minute so that is about 920 which on a WFD scale that is nothing, but for me it is faster than I thought I was.

BUT, that is doing it my way, which is kind of a hybrid of (not so good), Gladstone and some finger technique (Tiger's observation, I'm not that smart to figure that out on my own).

Tiger Bill tells me I have way too much tension so I could never be dangerous. Which is interesting because I thought I had only moderate amounts of tension. That goes to show how important it is to have a teacher watch you. You can watch all the videos and read all the books you want but nothing will bring results faster than having someone critique you.

He showed me his way (also Joe Morello's and Danny Gottlieb's way to name a couple) of doing it (the right way as far as I can see) and I can't believe how hard it is to break old habits. It is amazing how helpless I feel while trying to play the no tension way, without any power. It will be a long and arduous road.

For me to get it right, it will take a complete deconstruction of my playing, and it will take a ton of discipline but I have nothing else to do so I may as well try it.

Now I could probably just try and squeeze more out the way I've always been doing it
but I would rather do it the right way. In no way do I have any WFD aspirations, I don't even worry about breaking 1000, I doubt I will ever play music that requires that type of speed, I'm really more concerned about applying the proper technique.

I disagree. Mastery of single strokes is about the development of endurance and stamina.
It also applies directly to building a foundation for rudiment study in general, which seems to lead to everything else we do as drummers.

I don't think anyone should be deliberately practicing to be the world's fastest drummer... but it is important to be fast.  It's not like if I thought I could, I wouldn't try out, but I'm not going to say "I'm going to practice my butt off so someday I can be the world's fastest drummer!"

I don't know much about drumometers... but I got 932 using the push-pull at a friend's house ;)

I've never been hired because I can play fast.  I get hired because I keep steady time, listen to what's going on around me and play tastefully.  So I'm told.

Well, I replaced the foam in my drumometer/remo pad today.  i actually wore thru it.  I took me about 2 months.

I am soooooooo slow.  I can't believe for as long as I've been playing it's all I can do to play 32'nds at 100 BPM.  I think my fastest was I made 106 BPM for 15 seconds.

I would love to make 900 some day- that's my goal.

The good news is when I play 32's or fast 16ths I feel like I'm coming thru them better.

I don't know how you people play so fast.

Well if my math is right that is 800 which is respectable for sure, remember also, that alot of those guys are not clean, especially up in the high numbers. 800 clean is worth more than 1100 sloppy, just my $.02

EDIT: I should have stated when I refer to "those guys" in the WFD I'm not referring to guys like Art verdi, Tiger Bill and the like.

My post isn't meant to promote nor demote speed. I personally think there is a use for it, but there is also a use for silence or extremely slow tempos. In other words, pretty much agree with everyone. But there is a purpose to this post, I've mentioned him a number of times, but a guy who lives near me - Dave Hayley from Psycroptic is the fastest I've heard (and I listen to a lot of metal as well as everything else...), and its musical, and appropraite to the songs they have.

He's constantly changing, so there isn't an instance of a straight 16th at 300bpm, its constantly changing and very compelling and in my opinion musical. Check them out. www.psycroptic.com

thank-you

I've not heard of Psycroptic and their website didn't seem to have any audio up there so I can't comment on Mr. Hayley's musicality. If it is Speed, or Death, or whatever metal,  I don't dismiss that genre or the players who play it, I think takes a pretty good amount of skill and hard work to get to a level to play that fast with such endurance. BUT I will say that most of what I hear from those drummers is pretty one dimensional where most of the emphasis is on pure speed (Now, I'm not putting Mr. Hayley in this group because I've never heard his playing).

I see a lot of drummers today on YouTube, Google, in music stores and even at gigs just trying to  blast through everything at 300bpm but I hear little else in their playing that says anything. I also notice that when a lot of players like that slow down to a normal tempo they have absolutley no feel, or groove, it all sounds flat.

We drummers are spoiled today, there are literally tons of videos we can simply dial up on the internet to watch, and I've done a ton of watching over the past year.

In particular, I recently viewed solos by Mike Mangini and Vinnie Colaiuta and what struck me was the difference in the depths of their playing.

I've got nothing against Mike M. but his solo was really, really, fast and had the usual complement of polyrhythmic and flashy things but it lacked dimension to me. Vinnie C. on the other hand was really, really fast, had some polyrhythmic stuff going on but he was doing so much more with it. Speed was not the sole emphasis of his playing. He not only has fast singles but he uses a lot of intricate stickings and breaks up the patterns into different permutations for some really multidimensional sounds.

Mike M. is no slouch and I'm betting he has a faster single stroke roll than Vinnie but (in my opinion) players who approach things like Vinnie make better use of the multiple tools available to them.

On other drum forums, (and even here, but less so) I see posts from younger drummers whose sole criteria for judging their favorite drummers is how fast they can play or how "monster" a guys chops are. I like it when a drummer has great chops, and I'm not always from the "less is more" school, but I like it best when