Check out Bart Elliott's review of the new Aquarian Hi-Velocity Snare Drumhead on Drummer Cafe TV this week.


Drummer Cafe Community Forum
November 22, 2008, 11:17 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Win an R-09HR ... click HERE for details!
 
   Home   Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Independence with polyrhythms  (Read 1496 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Josiah
Guest
« on: February 10, 2002, 08:29 PM »

Hey..

So I'm having some trouble getting polyrythems down. The grooe I'm working on is by Danny Carey, it basically is a simple rythem with the snare on 2 and 4 and the abss drum playing nothing too hard. Except the hi-hat is playing this triplet pattern over the whole thing. Wich makes this cool groove that 'resets' itself every 3 bars.

However it's hard to play! Does anyone have any advice on working on indepandence with polyrythems and of that sort?

BTW, if you have the CD or want you can check the groove I'mt alking about out. It's off Tool's Aniema CD, track 2 starts at 6:35 in the song.

Thanks
Josiah
Logged
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12752


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2002, 09:53 PM »

Well, because I'm SUCH a nice guy, and to show you that I'm not that old  Grin ... I thought I would write out a bit of the drum groove on the TOOL - Aenima CD. Track number 2 is "Eulogy" ... here's the first two bars of the drum groove at the 6:35 mark.



The whole groove is sixteenth note based. As you mentioned, the Kick drum and Snare parts are pretty basic (please note that I did not notate the accented backbeats on the Snare; it's a given). The Hi-Hat, as you said is the tricky part. The polyrhtyhm is a 3:4 type of thing if you look at just the sixteenth-notes. In the 3:4 ... the 3 is the quarter-notes. I personally like to call this a poly-grouping or poly-phrasing rather than a polyrhythm because it involves the subdivisions rather than completing itself each bar. If that doesn't make sense, don't worry; we've had discussions of the "wording" here before ... with no resolution. Call it whatever you want.  Wink

Here's an explanation of the Hi-Hat pattern. It's a three-note reoccurring pattern which starts off with a closed hihat stroke, then a accented (not notated to save time) open hihat (see the o above the notes), followed by a closed hihat stroke WITH THE FOOT ... which basically serves two purposes: to end the open hihat sound and to provide the second sound of the hihat.

To practice this groove, I would recommend getting your metronome, set it SLOW, and work out the Hi-Hat pattern first. Try adding the Snare with the Hi-Hat part; then the Kick drum (or vice versa). If this is too difficult, try adding just one note at a time, keep the little Hi-Hat ostinato going and just play the Kick drum beats on beat one. Then add the next Kick drum beat. Then add the Snare hit on two ... and so on.

Now ... you'll need to finish out this groove because anytime you have a three note ostinato phrase like this, it will take a full three bars before the pattern starts repeating itself. I left out the third bar because I wanted you to figure the rest out for yourself. Once you get that third bar notated (just continue with my HiHat parts; analyze what I've already written for you), you'll have it. It's going to be a little weird because the music is in four bar phrases, but the Hi-Hat pattern is reoccurring every three bars.

Be sure to listen for any nuances that I may have missed. I only spent about 10 minutes from the time I listened and notated this thing ... so there may be some ghost strokes and such in there that I missed. The big thing that I wanted you to see is that it's not actually a polyrhythm in the sense of 3 against 4 or something like that. But it is an odd-phrase pattern or poly-grouping phrase. Everyone calls it something different. The important thing is to hear and see the difference.

Enjoy!

Make your checks payable to Bart Elliott. You spell million ... M I L L I O N.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
Josiah
Guest
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2002, 11:09 PM »

Wow...

Holy crap you are the man!

That was so cool of you... I can see how it would not be called a polyrthym with your explanation. See I learn something new everyday..

I will have to try it out tomorrow morning as it's 1am now.. and you know drums, peope in house and 1am are not a good mix.

I very gald to see that what I transcribed was simullar to what you got, though i missed the hi-hat w/ foot as the 3rd note in the pattern..

However earlier I was able to get the Hi-hat pattern down and the snare and bas but not combine them. I will try adding one note at a time.


Thanks again!

Peace
Josiah
Logged
rlhubley
Guest
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2002, 04:52 AM »

Just to let you know, this "over-the-barline" groove is talked about by danny carey(and even transcribed) in an issue of Modern Drummer.  It is from a few years ago, but it was the one where he is on the cover.  But already did a great job of explaining it, so i won't take it any further.  But since you are at MI, you will get more familiar with "over-the-barline" stuff.  Garbatini, Rosetti, and both Tims(McIntyre, and Pederson)are all GREAT at these type of grooves.  Garbatini has an excellant approach to balance behind the kit that usesaa over the barline groove in the exercise.
Logged
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12752


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2002, 04:59 AM »

Well nuts ... I wish I had know that. I would have just referred Josiah to the Modern Drummer issue.

I just went and found the issue in question, Modern Drummer - June 2001 which has Tool's drummer, Danny Carey on the cover, but no transcriptions in that particular issue.

On a side note, I keep every Modern Drummer magazine I've ever owned. and have them dating back to 1980. That is a LOT of freakin' magazines. I've got one shelf (8 ft. long) in my studio which houses nothing but MD.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
rlhubley
Guest
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2002, 05:20 AM »

Bart, the transcription is not in the usual place.  It's not an "all-out" transcription.  It is on a sidebar in the actual interview.  It notates the groove in question, as well as a groove from the tune "Aenima"
Logged
rlhubley
Guest
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2002, 05:21 AM »

Bart, the transcription is not in the usual place.  It's not an "all-out" transcription.  It is on a sidebar in the actual interview.  It notates the groove in question, as well as a groove from the tune "Aenima"
Logged
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12752


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2002, 05:30 AM »

Quote
Bart, the transcription is not in the usual place.  It's not an "all-out" transcription.  It is on a sidebar in the actual interview.  It notates the groove in question, as well as a groove from the tune "Aenima"

Well I just looked through every single page of that issue and found not one transcription of any sort. Typically I know that MD puts a few grooves along the column of the interview, but I can't find anything.

Check for me, site the issue and page number that you see it in. Perhaps it's in a different issue other than the one Danny is on the cover of.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
rlhubley
Guest
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2002, 06:21 AM »

I'll check tonight, let you all know tomorrow.
Logged
Josiah
Guest
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2002, 12:26 PM »

Ohh issues of MD back to 80!

I thought I was doing good by having them all back to 99!


Thanks again though.. it's really kidna hard that groove.. maybe because I'm not use to play those time of over the bar-line grooves... Thanksa gain for the transcription and help!!

Peace
Josiah
Logged
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12752


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2002, 03:00 AM »

Well, Robert was right.

A transcription of this groove is in the February 1997 issue of Modern Drummer magazine.

As it turns out, my transcription is correct with one exception: the MD transcription shows no left foot activity ... with the hands covering all the HiHat notes.

Realizing that there is open HiHat sounds in the pattern, one can quickly deduce that there should be some notation for the closed HiHat ... which ends the open HiHat sound. Perhaps this is a given.

So, playing the HiHat foot is correct, but it may be that the HiHat is restuck at simultaneously. Either way will work ... and having the left foot play by itself, the way I notated it, is clearly more difficult. So practice it both ways and 'wow' your drum buddies.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
Dwarf
Guest
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2002, 08:55 AM »

Hey, that is a nice groove.  I had to download the tune to listen to it since I'm not a Tool fan, but I'm kinda intrigued by what I hear.

Hey Bart, I have MDs going back to '80 as well (Ringo issue), a couple of back issues before that, and the first and second year compilations.  I wrote to them once asking if they were planning a third year compilation but they don't think there's enough interest.  Darn.  Mine are all in storage at a friend's place since I'm low on space here.

--
Rob
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.124 seconds with 21 queries.
Copyright ©2001 - 2008 Drummer Cafe. All rights reserved.
developed by Bart Elliott | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Site Map