Check out Bart Elliott's review of the new Aquarian Hi-Velocity Snare Drumhead on Drummer Cafe TV this week.


Drummer Cafe Community Forum
November 22, 2008, 10:39 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: In Memory of Mitch Mitchell ... on DCTV.
 
   Home   Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Finding the right groove for a tune  (Read 427 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
smoggrocks
supporter
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 2457


Is there another word for synonym?


WWW
« on: June 22, 2005, 03:02 PM »

lots of times, you'll ask this question and people just say they listen to the melody, but i'm sure many people take different, or more global, approaches than that.

i was thinking about this the other day, coz with some tunes, [eg; pretty straight-ahead, 4/4 rock ones], so many grooves will work. so what is it that makes you decide one groove is better, or more appropriate for the tune? if you were to just hear the melody coming from one instrument, like piano and guitar, what do you draw on to frame the music [er, besides the melody]. do you think about what you'd want to hear out of the rest of the rhythm section?

personally, i look for accented parts in the guitar parts, or if i'm focused on the melody, i play a 'skeleton' of the melody. but i'd like other ideas.

this came up in speaking with this folk singer the other day. i don't know a lot of folk music at all, and wondered how i would approach something so out of my element. sometimes 'mellower' pop music needs really distinctive drumming to make it rise above the ordinary.

hopefully my question makes sense.

so what's your approach?

 
Logged

The most wasted day of all is that on which you have not laughed.
jameswalker
Guest
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2005, 03:31 PM »

so what's your approach?

For those times when obvious choices don't come to mind, I'll key off of the bass line, or comping figures (guitar, piano, etc.), as much (if not more than) the melody.  If no particular musical direction comes to mind, I'll start with something very basic and sparse, and build from there (or stay there, if it works).

I'll also try and keep textures in mind.  A beat that has eighth notes in the hi-hat and 2&4 on the snare drum will have a different character if the two parts are played on snare drum with brushes or "hot rods."  (Airto is one of my inspirations in terms of using different sounds and textures on the drum set, BTW - seeing his "Listen And Play" instructional video was revelatory for me.)

What I've found to be very helpful, in terms of developing the ability to come up with a part that fits and embellishes the music (and this is speaking not just as a drummer, but as a vibes player, a percussionist, and as a composer/arranger), is to listen critically to other recordings, and analyze how one player's part relates to the rest of the ensemble.  If the part is unusual, note how it fits against everything else, and that may help you to come up with your own unique parts to fit a given situation.  Or, if the part is very simple, listen to hear if there's something going on in the other parts that would have been covered up by, say, busier or more syncopated drumming.  Over time, this helps to develop one's own abilities in terms of making creative choices, whether those choices are analytical or instinctive in nature.

Drummers who come to mind as I type this include Steve Gadd, Manu Katche, Steve Jordan, Steve Smith (among many, many others) - drummers who have the facility to play very busy (and often complex) parts, and sometimes they opt to do just that - but other times, they'll play very sparsely, and/or very simply.  What was it that prompted Manu to play one way on Peter Gabriel's "In Your Eyes" and "Come Talk To Me," but play another way entirely on "Sledgehammer" or "Steam"?  Ditto for Steve Gadd - I can't think of a better example of a unique drum part that fits perfectly, than "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover," but on another Simon tune (say, "Train In The Distance," on the Central Park concert - I don't recall if Gadd played it on the CD), his part is a very simple, beautiful groove.

If you can try and glean some ideas from these drummers' wonderfully musical decisions, hopefully it'll inform your own ability to do so when you're faced with the challenge of finding the right thing to play on a given song.

IMHO, etc.
Logged
Drum4JC (Todd)
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1690


Psalm 150


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2005, 11:07 PM »

Good question Smoggy, and thanks for the insight James.  

I think I am similar to you Smoggy.  I'm listening to the different voices in the song and I am either playing directly to that melody, or playing directly opposite of it, or even compounding the pulse by doubling up on it.  That tends to make a lot of my playing more busy than not.  So I also try to just go completely straight and just focus on a nice clean easy rhythm on other songs so I don't sound the same all the time.

I'm not sure if my description about playing opposite or compounding makes any sense.  Those are just words that come to me that seems to make sense of it.  There's probably more correct terminology.  An example might be a driving quarter note rhythm by the band on 1,2,3,4 and I might be playing 8th notes on the & of each beat as an offset to the drive.  That sounds really cool to me.  

I call the compounding like playing over the top of some base rhythm and playing to a rhythm is playing exactly the melody of the tune.  

Please advise if there's more correct ways of saying this!

Logged

Coming in 2008:  The Delta-3 Snare Drum by Fusion Drums.  www.fusiondrums.com.  Look for updates here at the Drummer Cafe!
irishthump
Silver Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 357


I love the Drummer Cafe!


« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2005, 05:00 AM »

Quote
Well there's always your first instinct.
Bout as far as I get.


Amen to that!
Logged

"Free your mind, and your sticks will follow....."
Jon E
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 2992


This just in.....


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 05:13 AM »

I go with my first instinct.

Then I often try my second instinct just to see how that works.

90% of the time I go back to my first instinct!!
Logged
redchapterjubilee
Gold Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 573


Hulk smash.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 05:35 AM »

Since my band The Luna Moth is in essence a "jam band" (although that term has such negative connotations to my ears) I'll try different things.  Usually whatever chord progression we are jamming out suggests something to me.  I take feedback from other two guys in the band.  If something doesn't "feel" right, or a change of dynamics or maybe a tighter approach with the bass player...that sort of thing.
Sometimes I'll start playing an odd, angular beat that suggests a vibe to other guys and they arrange their groove to me.  The Luna Moth has a song we've been playing for a year now that we've demoed for our next album called "Black Vinyl Bag" that was written around a circular, Glen Kotchke-esque drum pattern I was fooling around with.  In typical Moth style it is one chord for sometimes 15 minutes.  

As a songwriter on my own more "pop" oriented material I usually have a drum part in my head when I'm writing the song.  I rarely change the part in-between the conception and the actual realization (usually through one-man band multitracking) of the song but sometimes I opt for drum programming rather than tracking drums.  
Logged

rca
supporter
Silver Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 480


I love the Drummer Cafe!


« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 06:06 PM »

We take kind of a jazz approach to our music. We listen hard and nothing is set in stone, except that we are supporting the vocalist, no matter what. I really don't decide the drum parts for new songs in my band. The guitarist who acts as our arranger will tell me the feel he wants. I may listen to him play the song to get a better idea of the style, if I don't understand what he wants right away. Then I play something. I try to make sure my hands blend with the guitar and my kick blends with the bass. He tells me if its what he wanted. We have been playing together for over three years, so we communicate pretty well now. The other thing is that he wants very simplistic patterns, while in some songs I play one pattern throughout the song, for most songs the only consistency is the feel. I may change patterns a bit throughout the song helping to the define the structure, adding excitement, or just switching to something that works better, and sometimes I change patterns from one gig to the next to better support how the songs are intepreted that night, but only changing the feel when asked to by the arranger.

As for your comment about playing different styles of music. While some styles of music may have signature drum sounds or patterns, I don't think you necessarily have to follow the rules. If it sounds good and works, they will call your rule breaking original and innovative. I think no matter what the style, if you make the music fun for the others to play, you cannot go wrong.

I need to qualify this by saying, that I am not a pro and play purely for the joy of making music. A pro has to be more concerned about playing what the leader wants, and appropriate to the style. A pro has to play for money, not for fun. But hopefully, it turns out to be fun too.  
Logged
Marcos
supporter
Silver Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 467



« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2005, 08:37 AM »

Imagineering is my approach. It takes quite a few iterations before I/we settle on a groove because the tunes evolve and with each performance everyone is trying to do the same (i.e find 'their own groove"), thereby altering the previous variant.
Logged

- Marcos
*********

"If you can play, you can play anything. I don't like classifications."
TamaDrummer
Silver Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 319



« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2005, 02:28 PM »

Quote
so many grooves will work
Smogg, I know what you mean.  When my original band gives me a riff or section to work with, I could play for hours and not repeat my self.

When I come up with my parts for a song, I try to find something that works well with the song musically, ADDS something to the music that wasn't there before, and that will be interesting enough to keep me from getting overly bored.  I like my parts to be more than just a "backdrop" for the music.  But of course, if a backdrop is what really works the best, that's what I'll go with.  I like to put the drums just a little more out there, while still not detracting from the overall song.
Logged

People won't always remember what you said, and people won't always remember what you did, but they will ALWAYS remember how you made them feel.
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12752


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2005, 02:40 PM »

I think the question ... "How do you find the right groove for a tune?" is the million dollar question.  Cool

To sum up my approach, I do what I feel sounds and works best for the music. There are so many options available, so it all comes down to what I'm wanting to say musically.

In my clinics, I demonstrate how do to this by taking a simple tune, which I've recorded without drums, and proceed to show the hundreds of different approaches, grooves and styles that I could use ... and the rest of the band doesn't change a thing.

Not only the coming up with the groove, but the feel of the tune is another part of the creative journey. Deciding where exactly to place that backbeat, for example ... then putting it there every time ... that's another thing to flesh out.

The more you expose yourself to a WIDE range of music styles, rhythms and genres, the more vocabulary you have to work with, and the more you have to draw from while creating.

I'm coming up with a part to fit what is already going on, I'm naturally going to be influenced by what I hear from the other parts. Sometimes I will instruct others to alter their parts slightly in order for my idea to work. If I'm the one building the foundation first, then the sky is the limit.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
smoggrocks
supporter
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 2457


Is there another word for synonym?


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2005, 01:47 PM »

thanks for the great input, y'all! james, bart and drum4jc, some really great insights. i agree, you need to connect with the feel, or the spirit of the tune, as well as the tune itself, to make things come to life. i believe i'm a sensitive enough human to do that, even if i don't always have the technique to pull it off. i say what i try to say in my simple way. actually, our guitarist has often said that one thing he likes about my playing is its innocence, and that he likes that i'll do things more accomplished players won't because i'm open to it, and i'm hearing things unbiased. i think that's good, but it'd be better to hear things from an informed place.

anyhow, my goal is to get my new cd player and a gazillion new cds this weekend, coz i need to wrap my head around new stuff. i have a pretty good collection now, but i need to get out of my usual zone and also hunt down some new music [which is really hard, coz if i don't like the first tune, i tend to just ditch it]

along the lines of this discussion, though here is a great [though fairly lengthy] interview with the great vinnie c. that my teach just sent me. goes into what we're talking about and much, more more.

hopefully the linkie works:


http://www.vinniecolaiuta.com/articles percussioni03.aspx
Logged

The most wasted day of all is that on which you have not laughed.
smoggrocks
supporter
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 2457


Is there another word for synonym?


WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2005, 01:58 PM »

hmmm.

looks like the link doesn't work. i think it's not allowed.

go to vinniecolaiuta.com and go to the articles section. it's the first article at the top of the list.


Logged

The most wasted day of all is that on which you have not laughed.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.155 seconds with 21 queries.
Copyright ©2001 - 2008 Drummer Cafe. All rights reserved.
developed by Bart Elliott | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Site Map