Check out the Christmas CD, "It's For You He Came", featuring Bart Elliott on drums and percussion, available in the Drummer Cafe Store.


Drummer Cafe Community Forum
December 02, 2008, 11:05 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Learn to play Sleigh Bells on DCTV!
 
   Home   Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How do I get my snare to "honk"?  (Read 884 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
bill713
Guest
« on: August 16, 2004, 07:07 AM »

Hi, I am new here and already tried a search for this subject, so I thought I would ask.

While cruising the DW artist snare page I read a comment by an artist describing an aluminum snare drum and they roughly said "it doesn't have too much honk to it".  Contrarily, I am looking for that sound.  It is sort of a pitch bend thing I would guess.  

I have always loved the sound of Steve Ferrone's snare with the Average White Band, and I know that drum was a 5x14 Gretsch.  I have 2002 Broadkaster 5x14 and would like to try to get a similar sound.  I just bought 42 strand Gibraltar wires for it (because I would assume that older era of Gretsch would have used them) and it just doesn't do it, so I am assuming it is more of a tuning issue.  I have always been horrible at tuning even though I have been playing for many years, cut albums, and did tours, it has never been my strong suit.  

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Logged
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12772


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2004, 11:00 AM »

I've written a number of articles on tuning (see 5-Minute Lessons) the Snare drum.

Without hearing the drum, I have no other suggestions for you. Also, I don't know that the term "honk" is one that I can associate a particular sound to.

Your Broadcaster is not the same Gretsch drum that Ferrone used. The drum itself, plus drumheads, tuning, room, mics, mic-pre, processing, compression, all play a role in what you hear on an Average White Band album ... or any album for that matter.

Pitch bend is achieved by detuning one or more lugs on the batter head. This technique was popular on Tom-Tom batter heads, but not one that I employ on a Snare drum. The way you hit the drum can also create a "bend" to the sound. When a drumhead is struck, if it has some give to it, the drumstick can be pressed slightly to create more tension (raise the pitch). When the stick is removed, the added tension is released and the pitch drops. All of this takes place very quickly during the backbeat.

Perhaps someone else here on the forum can help you in more detail.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
bill713
Guest
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2004, 11:28 AM »

Thank you for the reply, I appreciate your efforts in helping me out.  I will search on the 5 minute lesson section for more info.

I would guess the term "honk" is that sort of the twang that some snares have.

Do you have any more info on Ferrone's Gretsch set?  Espescially the snare!  I cannot find that information anywhere.

Thanks!
Logged
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 8753


Y no keno!


« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2004, 01:34 PM »

"honk" is a term I've heard quite a bit strangely enough- out west and even around here.

Funny sounding term too, but I think descriptive.  I like a snare that "honks" and tune for that sound.  I get the most "honk" with a clear or clear/dot head on a snare tuned to a medium tension, maybe med tight.  I have my bottom head tighter in pitch than my top head.  I personally like my snares tuned lug to lug as close as I can get them *I don't like to spend too much time fine tuning btw- these things aren't pianos- sorry just my opinion*

A small piece of tape rolled up in a tight cylinder sticky side out or a 1/2 piece of moongel seem to trim of the high end pleasantly enough (for my ear anyways) with this head combo.   If you keep your wires on the loose side you can open your snare sound up even more, but that's up to you.

To me the "honk" of a drum is different than the "cut".  Honky drums are very wet that usually are dampened a bit.
Logged

Yaay!
jameswalker
Guest
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2004, 10:06 PM »

I like a snare that "honks" and tune for that sound.

As soon as I saw this thread for the first time, I knew Felix would make his way to it.

Felix, can you suggest any recordings that demonstrate a snare drum with "honk" to it?  I suspect that for many of us here (like me), it's going to be a matter of "oh, so THAT'S what they mean by 'honk!'" once we hear it.

Logged
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 5901


« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2004, 01:39 AM »

The term 'honk' for me means a mid rangey tone with plenty of harmonic content.
You wouldn't get a 'honk' out of a highly tuned piccolo, or a fairly damped drum for example.
The old Radio Kings are an archetypal 'honk' machine in my opinion. I know a record producer who prizes his Ludwig Hand Hammered Brass snare because of it's unruly overtones and harmonics which he likes to bring out with EQ and compression. It helps the drum find some space in the loud guitar rock this guy usually produces.
90% of the time, drummers don't want too much 'honk', because it tends to render a drum one dimensional (as in not versatile).
I believe that's where the DW catalogue is coming from.
They want you to know the Aluminium snare has some character, but not so much it makes the drum unusable in most circumstances.
Logged

Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 5901


« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2004, 01:40 AM »

Felix, can you suggest any recordings that demonstrate a snare drum with "honk" to it?  I suspect that for many of us here (like me), it's going to be a matter of "oh, so THAT'S what they mean by 'honk!'" once we hear it.
What about nearly everything Todd Rundgren produced in the 70's.
Logged

Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 12772


Be Thankful


WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2004, 06:04 AM »

So, even though Steve Ferrone is black ... he played a honky sounding Snare? Makes sense ... it was the Average White Band.  Wink

Well, I know what "honk" means to me, but I just don't think it's a standardized term. This is obvious in that we've already been given several definitions for the term ... and what sound it represents.

My view of "honk" was more along the lines of what Chrisso has suggested ... although I just don't use the term much.
Logged

My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
Mister Acrolite
Sous Chef
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 5646


Mr. Positive


WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2004, 06:10 AM »

Felix, can you suggest any recordings that demonstrate a snare drum with "honk" to it?  I suspect that for many of us here (like me), it's going to be a matter of "oh, so THAT'S what they mean by 'honk!'" once we hear it.

The ultimate honk song to me is Roundabout by Yes, featuring Bill Bruford on drums. His snare is pretty "honky" on the Close to the Edge album, too.

Aronoff's snare honked a lot during his middle years with Mellencamp. And I seem to remember some Rolling Stones tunes where Charlie's snare was barking pretty hard. Steve Jordan, a major disciple of Charlie, also honks a lot, on records with Keith Richards and Amanda Marshall

When I want to really exaggerate the honk, I play rimshots off-center, near the left edge of my snare drum. I love the sound, and use it for one rather "Stonesy" tune in our setlist. To emphasize it, I also play the Charlie Watts hihat pattern: getting off the hat on 2 and 4 so that only the snare is heard.

New bumper sticker: Honk if you like honk.

Logged

Hit on 2. Repeat on 4.
(instructions found written on Mr. A's snare drum)

my drummerworld page
jameswalker
Guest
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2004, 07:11 AM »

What about nearly everything Todd Rundgren produced in the 70's.
The ultimate honk song to me is Roundabout by Yes, featuring Bill Bruford on drums. His snare is pretty "honky" on the Close to the Edge album, too.

Aronoff's snare honked a lot during his middle years with Mellencamp. And I seem to remember some Rolling Stones tunes where Charlie's snare was barking pretty hard. Steve Jordan, a major disciple of Charlie, also honks a lot, on records with Keith Richards and Amanda Marshall

OK, gotcha - that clears it up for me, thanks!
Logged
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member

Online Online

Posts: 5901


« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2004, 07:12 AM »

Good call on Aronoff and Watts having the 'honk' factor.  Smiley

Just thought of another (it's from memory, so I could be wrong): Tony Williams in mid 70's Fusion or Hard Rock mode.
I'm thinking it was probably a Gretsch wood shell, 6.5 or 7" deep, virtually no damping.
Logged

cavanman
Cafe VIP
Gold Member

Online Online

Posts: 984


"And I do the Cha-Cha like a little sissy Girl"


« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2004, 12:08 PM »

There have been some good examples of, at least what I think of when I think of 'honk' given here. Early Bruford's definitely a good example. I remember an article of him responding to the question of how he got the early Yes snare sound he was so well known for. He mentioned the same technique Mr. A.'s giving, with a rimshot to the edge of a Ludwig Supraphonic 5 x 14, Remo Ambassador, tuned medium tension.

I think it may be harder to achieve this sound (acoustically, live) with a high tensioned drum but others may have a different experience.

One guy who I think has a cool lower honk is Alex Van Halen. Brother Eddie even described it as part of the 'brown sound.' I think Eddie's quote was that his brother Alex's snare went 'tonk' when he hit it. That's the closest printed description of a snare 'honk' that I've seen outside of drummer circles.


Jim
Logged

"I like-uh....dooo....da cha-cha..."
bilkay
Gold Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 597


Where's that @$%# drum key?


« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2004, 05:27 PM »

The ultimate honk song to me is Roundabout by Yes, featuring Bill Bruford on drums. His snare is pretty "honky" on the Close to the Edge album, too.



And you hit the technique(s) on the head.  Bruford has talked many times about his use of the rimshot to produce his signature snare drum sound.  He did it to get higher frequencies out of the drum to cut through the amplified instruments during performances.  Fortunately for us, producer Eddie Offord left Bruford's drums alone on Fragile and Close to  the Edge so we get to experience Billy B in all his glory!  Also, as you mentioned, striking the snare drum near the rim also brings out higher frequencies and that beautiful ringing resonance that is so dear to my heart (Bruford also employs this technique with ALARMING FREQUENCY!).

And I think that although metal shells may be more inherently inclined to be HONKERS, you can achieve the sound (to a greater or lesser degree) with any drum shell through technique, tuning, heads, and snare wires (mostly technique and tuning).
Logged
dizz
Guest
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2004, 02:59 PM »

Long Live the Honk



Logged
LuvmyLeedy
Guest
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2004, 11:18 AM »

if i was looking for "honk" from a snare i'd tune on the medium-low side with a 2 ply head and use just a little dampening (1/2 a piece of moongel right near the hoop, say). snare wires not too loose and snare side head not too tight. rimshots of course...
Logged
Bob
Copper Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 23



« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2004, 11:27 AM »

Get in front of it at a red light and when the light turns green don't move.
Logged
mszczep1
Guest
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2004, 09:33 PM »

I've got a wood shell 70's Gretch, and it honks.  Found it in a pawn shop (the whole kit, actually - unfortunately, has concert toms).  Batter medium tight, bottom tight, rimshots to wake the dead.
Logged
mouse
supporter
Gold Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 726


I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing


WWW
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2004, 01:43 AM »

It all raises a question on the perception of Honk.
Drummers always asking questions about getting their drums to sound like " name drummers". We all have different perceptions of what " name drummers drum actually sounds like and we also need to know information on  exactly the time the drum track was played. My guess the name drummer has 100 snares and chops and changes tunings and drums between album tracks and gigs frequently.
These type of questions are too hard basket. IMO if you can be specific to the sound you wanted you are going to get better chance of a helpful reply. Honk could be anything. Descriptions of wet, fat, dry etc are hard enough to describe a tuning as all drums are different and head selection comes into it, but Honk!
Logged

Tama Granstar
jokerjkny
supporter
Platinum Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 3097



« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2004, 01:11 PM »

just get a Dunnett Ti and be done with it.  Tongue
Logged

...this aint no time fo' jibba jabba!
AllanSpeers
Guest
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2004, 11:53 AM »

I'll hazard a guess / addition to what has already been suggested.

I just listened to "Roundabout" to get a reference.  I didn't expect THAT to be what you meant, but if it is, what I'm hearing is a TON of shell resonance.  -That "note" that recording engineers always try to get rid of (!)   But, yeah, I like it too.    

So, I'd probably start out as follows:  

First, use light rims, definitely not die-cast or maple.  Fairly low tuning, as others have said.  
Keep the top and bottom heads close to each other, possibly even the same note  (or tune the reso head to a harmonic of the batter head)

You probably want to stay with a 5" or 5.5"   Any larger, and you would probably be going for more tension to get a useful "all around" tuning, and thus kill some of that desireable honk.  (though all sorts of odd combinations might actually get you there.)

I would personally also start with a single ply top head, as you want the drum to be alive, then use "emad" type dampers.  -But this depend upon the drum.  if the drum is bright (ludalloy, steel) then a double head (or lots of moon gel) might help by killing some HF.  if the drum is wood, I doubt you'd need it. (unless it's really thick, like a segmented shell.)

Bruford's snare sure sounds like thin maple or mahoganny to me.  (Chrisso, is that the Radio King thang?)    If it's metal, then they must have had a ton of stuff on the batter head, 'cause it's all midrange.  (hence you hear more of the honk.)
Logged
jokerjkny
supporter
Platinum Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 3097



« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2004, 03:04 AM »

FYI,

i tried a friend's snare that had a nice "honk" to it.  instantly reminded me of Alex Van Halen's honk.  so, with his no name steel shelled snare he found in the garbage, he had on a rather heavy weight Aquarian Focus X, tuned rather midway.  then his resonant side was tuned what he called a 3rd pitch below the batter head.  tighten snare wires to taste, and instant honk!  i actually loved the tones he got with that snare, and am lookin' for a no name of my own to try it out.  Wink

hope this helps.
Logged

...this aint no time fo' jibba jabba!
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.125 seconds with 20 queries.
Copyright ©2001 - 2008 Drummer Cafe. All rights reserved.
developed by Bart Elliott | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Site Map