DRUMMER CAFE

OK.  Hopefully this will be my last post on the subject.  Although Gladstone, Stone and Moeller all had their own approaches to technique they undoubtedly shared many concepts.  Nonetheless, in today's world we've come to equate the Free Stroke with Gladstone and/or Stone, and the whipping motion with Moeller.

I'll quote Dom Famularo's book 'It's Your Move', because he has studied with BOTH Morello (I.e. Gladstone/Stone/Free Stroke)and Chapin (Moeller).  

On page 10 of his book, refering to the Free Stroke he states:

Dom then goes on for about 5-6 pages describing the Free Stroke and exercises to develop it.  If you want a complete description of the Free Stroke (aka Gladstone or Stone) read the lengthy description in Dom's book, refer to the Vic Firth website for Dom's video clips, and read Tiger Bill's explanation of the Free Stroke/Gladstone in his 3 part series 'Building Monster Chops'.

Now on page 16 of Dom's book explaining the Moeller stroke he states:

Dom gives a very clear synopsis of the Free Stroke and attributes it's formal origins to Gladstone and Stone.  He then gives a good overview of the Moeller Stroke, explaining it as the whipping motion and defining it as a separate technique from the Free Stroke, but one which builds on the concepts learned in the Free Stroke (aka Gladstone/Stone).  He clearly separates the two concepts and does NOT equate the Free Stroke (aka Gladstone/Stone) with the Moeller technique although he says Moeller builds on the Free Stroke.    

I really can't do much better than this explanation.  Dom's terminology and basic explanations are good enough for me.  They also coincide and confirm the info I've gleaned from Chapin, Tiger Bill, Morello, Gottlieb and others.  If people choose to use a different terminology that's fine with me, but I think the explanations provided here are consistent with current concepts and definitions.   If someone refers to the Gladstone technique they are most likely refering to the Free Stroke.  If someone refrers to the Moeller technique, they are most likely refering to the whipping motion.   That about sums it up.  
 

 

Funkster ... thank you for the excellent and thorough response; I've learned something new today! Can't believe I don't have Dom's book, especially since I used to sell it for him on his website!  

Wow, it is so refreshing to see a thread like this.  No ego getting in the way and the true sharing of information, without a lot of BS to get in the ay.  Thanks Bart and Funkster (among others) for all the great information shared here.

From what I have seen the 'Gladstone' technique uses the natural motion of the stick by just simply throwing it at the drum without tension in the wrist hands and fingers and letting the rebound bring the stick back up. 3 different heights for different for different volumes and that's more or less it.

Now as I have been taught Moeller the downstroke part involves stopping the stick immediately after striking the drum by squeezing the fingers and then using a wrist motion (up stroke) in preparation for the next stroke.  Tiger Bill it seems is against this principle or stopping the stick against the will of the natural motion and then to waste energy in using a separate motion to bring the stick back up.

When I play the classic 4-4 grove (only a beginner)I'm told to use up, tap and down strokes on the height hat and to me this does seem like extra work compared to just throwing the stick to the drum letting it naturally rebound.

However Moeller sounds really cool for rudiments around the kit for different dynamic levels and so I think it is a case of different tools for different jobs as Mr. Famularo would say, cest la ve.

I have a question on all this.  The Art Verdi/Danny Gottleib (Dom is no slouch either) guys that really get lots and lots of speed- all semantics aside and lets say your are just going for really fast singles.  Is this all done in the fingers  and a free bounce (allthough timed differently as opposed to playing a double stroke) and can you (or should?) one use a slight lift or push of the wrist (palms down and or "thumb up" matched grip for argument's sake) for added momentum on the downstroke?  Any thoughts?  Or is the Gladstone / Morello technique a fingers only.  And the question really is, what technique will let you play the fastest with the least amount of effort?

I think your explanation of Moeller may  lead to further confusion.  You seem to indicate there is squeezing, stopping and tension in the Moeller stroke.   This is not the case.  Moeller utilizes relaxation, fluidity and constant motion.  For further evidence check out Dom's book, Chapin's video, Morello's video, and Dom's and Chapin's clips on the Vic Firth website.  

At any rate, I doubt that Tiger Bill is opposed to the Moeller Stroke.  I took a lesson from him and we discussed it in some detail.  Moeller is just an additional tool in your arsenal.  As I've pointed out in previous posts, Moeller can utilize the relaxation learned in the Free Stroke (Gladstone approach).  The conepts are not mutually exclusive.  To state that Tiger Bill is against Moeller simply because his article is about the Free Stroke (and not attempting to describe Moeller) is not accurate.  

This shouldn't so difficult!!  

well I always try to look at it like this: Moeller is really a motion thing, mainly using your underarm and wrist; while Gladstone is more fingercontrol related.

Funkster, I wasn't referring to your comments. I just remeber some other threads about the Moeller technique as well as John Riley's (a former student of Joe's) write-up in MD about the Moeller technique. Some drummers try to turn this technique into rocket science.

For maximum speed Joe suggests fingers only which is only a piece of the Gladstone technique, but obviously there is more than one way to get there. The bottom line is staying relaxed no matter what technique or application you use.

One other thing that Joe teaches and that is also part of the Gladstone technique is the open-closed technique, where you can get two strokes from every downstroke. The wrist (and arm) produces the first stroke and the fingers produce the second stroke. The key is getting both strokes to sound the same.  This is a great technique for playing singles at speeds/tempos that are faster than what the wrists alone can produce.

The open-close technique is what I was referring to. Joe told me about Gordy's video and how he was showing in the video, one of Mr. Gladstone's techniques. The funny part according to Joe was that Gordy did not realize that this was a technique taught bt Mr. Gladstone.

Either way, the open-close technique or whatever you would like to call it does work.

Free stroke from Gladstone , open/close too , you said "one of Mr. Gladstone's techniques" is there another technique from Mr Glasdtone we can learn ?