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sidereal
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2002, 11:18 AM » |
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There are so many elements that go into getting steady work, which is really the question being raised here. It's not just an issue of chops and the pocket. Like folks are saying, you also have to be easy to be around. One other thought about becoming a successful studio drummer (which I'm not  ): you've got to have the instinct to come up with just the right part for the song. A lot of time you're not going to have advance knowledge of songs, a CD to listen to beforehand, or even charts. You may walk in, the producer will play you a recording, say "this is part A, part B and part C" and you've got to be able to come up with options that make the producer happy. And especially in Nashville, you've got to come up with them quickly. The place can be a bit like a factory from what I understand. So you have to have an instinct for what's needed for the song, often right on the spot. |
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Drumlooney
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2002, 11:17 AM » |
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I'll take paul liem's feel and pocket over weckl's chops and overplaying any day.  |
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You don't practice one day no one notices, you don't practice two days you notice, you don't practice three days everyone notices.
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felix
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first class all the way :-)
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2002, 12:10 PM » |
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I always thought " the weck " had a great feel.
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Sonor, The Drummers Drum
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Tony
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2002, 09:04 AM » |
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Weckl. Another convert to the organic method being taught by Freddy Gruber. Listen to his groove back in the Chick Corea Electrik Band circa 1987 as opossed to now. HUGE difference.
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The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation. Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.
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563
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2002, 09:17 AM » |
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Weckl. Another convert to the organic method being taught by Freddy Gruber. whenever I see that name I get all stoked because I think someones actually talking about fredy studer ... then I see im wrong and I get dissappointed  |
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Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland |
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Tony
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2002, 09:23 AM » |
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Sorry. Whose Freddy Studer?
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The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation. Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.
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563
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2002, 10:19 AM » |
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Sorry. Whose Freddy Studer?
did someone say something? anyway, fredy (one 'd') is a bit of an avant gardist. a lot of improv, new music etc. http://www.fredystuder.ch/ |
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Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland |
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Tony
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2002, 03:55 PM » |
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Sorry. Whose Freddy Studer?
did someone say something? anyway, fredy (one 'd') is a bit of an avant gardist. a lot of improv, new music etc. http://www.fredystuder.ch/I didn't hear you? |
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The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation. Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.
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DFJLOS
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2002, 09:59 AM » |
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I hope nobody took my comments on Dave Weckl & Paul Leim the wrong way, I wasn't saying that Dave Weckl doesn't have an incredible groove, HE DOES, but my point was that you don't HAVE to have incredible CHOPS to live in Nashville to get hired (although MOST, not ALL, of the heavy hitters in Nashville have a good amount of chops to go along with their GROOVE factor). Most of the heavy session players play in jazz or fusion bands that play LIVE around town and they can STRETCH out a bit more than in the studio...vent those chops a bit . If you're really concerned about your chops, don't be, I've seen guys that have taken their chops from average to excellent in a period of a year because they just put in the time. So, be glad you have the POCKET, because so many drummers don't.....  |
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Critter29
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2002, 10:14 AM » |
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Pocket is definitely where it's at. Don't get me wrong, chops are great too and they require dexterity and skill but, so does pocket. I like the players who are all about playing the groove. They seem to display a maturity & discipline in what they do yet, play something creatively and most importantly, tastefully.
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felix
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first class all the way :-)
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« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2002, 11:14 AM » |
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Can a drummer have deep pocket with some players and a crappy pocket with holes in it with other players?
I'm inclined to say yes. But I don't really know.
Or should a truly great drummer just have a magically deep pocket with every musician within 100 feet?
IF one plays pocket pool does that help the pocket or hurt it? I wish my pockets were lined with wabbit fur.
Then I would have my gloves and pockets lined with wabbit fur.
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Sonor, The Drummers Drum
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Peter Jeffery
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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2002, 11:20 AM » |
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Can a drummer have deep pocket with some players and a crappy pocket with holes in it with other players?
I'm inclined to say yes. But I don't really know.
I think a good band is essential to deep wabbit pocketed drumming. The band needs to let the music breath and move the same as we do. If the band sucks- I feel as though my hands are tied. The good players make it so easy. |
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Peter Jeffery
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sidereal
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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2002, 12:56 PM » |
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Can a drummer have deep pocket with some players and a crappy pocket with holes in it with other players?
I'm inclined to say yes. But I don't really know.
Great point Felix! I agree completely. The whole band is responsible for being in the pocket, just that the drummer needs to drive it. (btw, this new Felix is freaking me out a bit. "...inclined to say yes." Bart, you'd better check that this is actually the same guy using this handle. ) |
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felix
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first class all the way :-)
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2002, 01:15 PM » |
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Ok, I thought I'd be nice to the newbies around here...let me paraphrase that:
Don't you "pro's" know anything? I've been kicked out of bands for not "grooving" and have been replaced by A1 session players. Guess what? The band liked my groove better- HAH!...I quit anyways because- you guessed it! They sucked.
Anyways, it's tough being right all the time.
But the great thing about this thread everyone is going to be paranoid now about their groove- GOOD.
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Sonor, The Drummers Drum
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Drumlooney
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2002, 01:18 PM » |
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I think it's Ironic how when one is young you tend to think it's all about chops, but as the years pass you by you reallize that's it's groove that gets you the call back, Felix stop being nice, you're scaring the kids |
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You don't practice one day no one notices, you don't practice two days you notice, you don't practice three days everyone notices.
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robyn
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« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2002, 09:00 PM » |
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Back to the original question...I'm gathering that "chops" refers to technical ability, while "pocket" refers to musicality--how well you can play exactly what the song needs. Am I on the right track? Lots of talk re: feel. I've always found that interesting. My other passion is riding horses, riding and training natural horsemanship (the horse-whisperer stuff)--and the basics are "feel, timing, and balance." You hear that over and over again in a clinic. I think my drumming and my riding have improved b/c of each other.  |
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marker
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2002, 04:47 PM » |
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Pocket is essential. Gotta have it. For some kinds of music, that's all you need, and all the band and audience wants.
Chops are fun, worth working on, makes drumming more interesting, and essential for some kinds of music. You must be able to apply these chops without losing the pocket. That's my rule, anyway.
If someone in your band has a time problem, it's going to be a pain in the ass, and you may get undeserved credit for their lack of timing. The only thing I know to do in that situation is play real loud and real simple. If you're louder than the person who is screwing up, listeners may not notice it too much.
Best of course is a band with seasoned musicians who understand the need for pocket themselves. Then, it's easy, and you can even throw some of those cool chops in without worrying about derailing the train.
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563
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2002, 07:42 PM » |
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im currently playing in a guitar/piano/drums trio (me on drums ) and the pianist was classically trained and brought a lot of the time bending thats required for that to the table with our band. so for us the 'pocket' the 'groove' isnt even so much about keeping good time, as much as it is keeping good vibe. and I tell ya, for a guy that prides himself on his internal metronome, it can get tricky |
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Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland |
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felix
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first class all the way :-)
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2002, 06:11 AM » |
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It just blows me away how everything keeps going in circles.
When I first started playing drums it was all I could do to play steady LOL now it's like "ok" lets bend the time.
Actually I think music sounds much better when it has an elastic quality!!!!! But, man you really have to know what you are doing.
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Sonor, The Drummers Drum
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563
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2002, 09:53 AM » |
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thats why time bending is so prominent in classical music. its highly narrative and those slight tempo changes really help cement the feel of a part. as for knowing what youre doing? well, I just listen. ive spent the last few years working on free improv in small combo situations and it really helped develop my ear. with nothing written all you have to go on is what the others are doing so as long as I can hear the rest of the band, those slight slow downs and speed ups arent to tricky. |
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Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland |
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