I think you needed to have seen him live. He was literally unbelievable. And if you listen to the way he kicks and supports a big band, his skill was without peer. Other, more understated drummers have also sounded great with big bands, but I've NEVER heard anybody drive a big band like Buddy.

Unfortunately, many of the Buddy Rich videos available just focus on the same thing - big showstopping solos with brutally fast snare work. But listen to some of his records, where he's just playing kickass music with a kickass big band, and you may start getting the picture.

The other thing to consider is that much of what he did, he did FIRST. Nobody had approached jazz or swing the way he had. Krupa had explored the showmanship angle, and guys like Kenny Clarke and Max Roach began to explore independence. But Buddy took this hyperactive force of his, and put so much forward momentum into his music, always while swinging his ass off. Other drummers like Louie Bellson, Roy Burns, Butch Miles, and Barrett Deems explored the highly technical approach to jazz drumming, but I really think Buddy pioneered it.

It helps if you like the kind of music he played, which I do. If it just sounds like old-fart stuff to you, you'll have a hard time appreciating his artistry.

He swings like a mofo, I'll say that. You are right too, big band jazz isn't my cup of tea really. I just don't see the leap from best big band drummer -----> best drummer ever.

Well, part of it falls under the category of what have they contributed? Buddy Rich pioneered an approach to not only soling, but to accompaniment. So far the "uber-chops" drummers like Virgil Donati and Thomas Lang have not had any real impact on any musical genre; neither of them are on any records that have had any significant impact on any musical genres. They are great technicians, but have yet to leave any real mark on music.

Buddy played with the greatest musicians of his era, making many memorable recordings. So far, Virgil and Thomas' greatest work has been on solo instructional videos.

And while I've not seen Lang live, I have seen Buddy and Virgil Donati more than once each. Virgil bored me to tears - until his solo. He's an astonishing soloist - no question about it. But as a drummer in his specific genre - rock or fusion, depending on what you want to call it - he was incredibly generic when he wasn't soloing.

On the other hand, I've seen Buddy with big bands, and with a symphony orchestra. In all cases, he left me with my jaw on the floor, whether he was soloing or simply accompanying the rest of the musicians.

Can Virgil move his arms and legs faster and/or in more complex patterns than Buddy? Perhaps. But has he - or any of the recent crop of chopsmeisters - made a similar impact on music in the style(s) that he plays? Not yet - not by a long shot.

I guess this is where we ask, "what defines the best drummer in the world."

I'm not saying donati and lang are the best drummers in the world, I just think they beat rich for chops. I can't argue with rich's influence and innovation, I was speaking only from a purely playing standpoint. My reasoning is that when judging a drummer's playing ability, you should only look at just the playing, not the record sales. There could be drummers we've never heard of who play in their basement in the middle of nowhere who are amazing but just aren't well known. I know many examples of people that blow my mind but are literal nobodies. So, by my standards, buddy is a fantastic big band drummer, but not worthy of "the best drummer ever."

Virgil's music bores me as well, but when I see him play, I feel he has more technical facility on the instrument than rich, which does NOT make him a better drummer. Virgil did not revolutionize jazz, but he could sure whip buddy in a drum battle I'd think. Could he play big band jazz? That's another issue.

I'll jump on the "listen to the albums NOT just the solos" bandwagon.  Now if listening to albums in that genre is not your norm or "in your comfort zone", or you find them yawners, you might not (be able to) pick up on the subtleties that make them so great.

Sort of like people who watch a Drum Corps show and think it's just another marching band.

Great thread, interesting points,  however, having grown up listening to Buddy Rich I tend to agree with the statements put forth by Mr. A. Mr. A has pointed out all of Buddy's musical merits. While I agree, the thing that does it for me is the visceral impact his stuff has on me.

In the past month I've not been playing at all but have done a ton of listening to a lot of stuff. From Pantera ( Vinnie Paul rocks) to Phil Woods. A good portion of it is Buddy and my 2nd favorite Big Band guy, Louis Bellson. Truth be told Louie is quicker, used more finese and dynamics with his finger technique (which was pretty innovative at the time I believe), utilized more intricate stickings (his version of "Time Check" is even fast than Buddy's!) and also composed many of his own songs (to favorable reviews by Basie and Duke Ellington).  I recognize and appreciate all that Louis B. has contributed, but for some reason I get a bit more of a jolt in my gut when I hear Buddy play. There is a record he did during the 70s in Rochester NY, called "At the Top" I believe, amazing live record, at times it explodes with energy. Whether it was ego, pure talent or  a certain "Je ne sais pas," it is Buddy that I get the best vibe from. Obviously in a race of thoroughbreds it is a photo finish, but for me I tend to gravitate to Buddy.

Strangely when I got to music school, all the guys there were strict Jazz heads. I liked Buddy,  Tony Williams and Louis Bellson as well as John Bonham. they pretty much laughed at me and dismissed all of them. If it wasn't DeJohnette or Elvin it wasn't Jazz. I had nothing against JD & Elvin, just didn't have as many of their records. This was the first real musical snobbery I experienced but it had a negative effect on me for quite a while because I thought I was all wrong and it made me question my own style.  I'm so happy all these years later to be vindicated and see that all my early favorites are respected.

I missed seeing Buddy live. I wish I had.

But I have seen guys like Weckl and Chambers, who site Buddy as a main influence.

Maybe its better that I didn't see Buddy because my head was close to exploding from just seeing his disciples.  

Newbeat, maybe you could get a better understanding of Buddy's playing by picking up an album or two of his and trying to play along with them. That might give you a better insight.

Just a thought.

I agree.  Who was 563's buddy *he he he* down in florida that's a buddy clone?  Anyone remember his name?  He was here for about a day and realized he was too good for this place.

Buddy was more flamboyant when fronting his own band, but the people were paying to see that, so he obliged.

Check out some of his recordings with Tommy Dorsey, Art Tatum, Harry James, and Artie Shaw, and you'll hear a consummate ensemble player.  On a disc with Tatum and Lionel Hampton Rich plays mostly with brushes and stays almost completely in the background, providing the base on which Hamp and Tatum build.

There's also an interesting recording of the Dorsey band with Frank Sinatra, where Buddy again is very much a part of the band.  I have video of him with James, and except for his solos is purely a sideman.

Even as a sideman he kicks the band like nobody else, though.  That to me is one of the things that make him the greatest.  Bands got better immediately when he played with them.  He brought a level of energy and sense of feel for the music that most drummers just wish they had.

I saw Rich when I was 19 and supremely confident that I could do anything I wanted to with drums.  That night showed me how wrong I was.  Nobidy else ever played with that combination of speed, control, and exquisite technique.

Most of the videos available are from late in Buddy's life.  Montreal 82 was filmed when he was 65 years old.  Consider that fact when watching that video.  Then sit down at your drums and see how long and how well you can play hitting just the tips of your sticks on the rim of your snare.

One anecdote from "Drummin' Men" bears repeating here.  "It was during an engagement by one of his early big bands at the Apollo Theater in Harlem.  He had broken his left arm in several places playing handball.  When the curtain opened and the band began playing its opening number, it wasn't  immediately apparent that anything unusual had occurred.  The drum set and the comparative darkness of the stage obstured the fact he had his left arm in a sling...Musically there didn't seem to be any difference; his feet and right hand did all the work.

When Rich came down front after the opening to make an announcement, there was a collective gasp heard in the theater, followed by the buzz of whispers.  The broken arm was hidden in a stylish sling, the same color as his jacket.  Rich made nothin of his disability and went about his business, ultimately causing a riot uptown, then downtown.  Drummer, indeed all sorts of musicians, came to Harlem and later visited the Paramount Theater on Broadway to witness still another aspect of Rich's freakish ability.

....The show came to a climax with Rich doing his famous 'Not So Quiet Please' number with one hand and his feet.  Legend has it that Basie drummer Jo Jones, after seeing the performance, quipped, 'If that arm heals, it ought to be broken again.'"

Of course it is. Which is why I don't think buddy should get the title.


That's fair.


Couldn't say.


I find that hard to believe- virgil may be just a technical wiz, but he's taken drumming's physical aspect to new heights and I honestly believe he's faster and more powerful than buddy was. If you have any doubt about the speed/power factors I have two video clips of virgil that show him doing things far above buddy in speed, dexterity, and power (which is not all that this is about, but I'm just proving my point.) The thing about virgil is that he has such a developed sense of coordination from doing all those multiple odd time paradiddle layering things that the guy is a literal drum computer. I have no doubt that vinnie and buddy could throw anything at him, and he could spit it right back out. He may not play jazz, but I think it would be untrue to say virgil has no feel either- they guy can groove. Putting it context, we're not matching virgil's odd time grooves with buddy's drum battle machine gun playing. If it got down and dirty, virgil's hands would do anything buddy's can. I honestly believe that.


I'm not trying to hoist virgil up as my end-all be all; I am just using him as an example of a drummer who exceeds buddy in a certain few areas that buddy is lauded at being unbeatable at. I don't care for virgil's music, and I also wish he would play in a more musical context, but you can't blame the man for doing what he loves and I think some of the things he's developed are insane.