Anyway, I think my question has been answered, and I see where you all are coming from. I just had a different perspective, and watching buddy videos, I would say to myself, "hey, so-and-so could do that...", but I was missing the point. I do respect buddy for his style, and I in no way intend to tarnish his reputation. I only think that his chops are a little bit glorified, and watching tapes, where it all is laid bare to careful scrutiny, I think buddy has been outdone in this day and age in terms of his "unbeatable" drum solos. His innovation and musicality remain as two pillars defining him as most likely the best at what he did, I was just curious at where he got the name of "best drummer ever". I would like to read your follow up to my latest post, but beyond that, I think it's best to agree to disagree now that I've gotten the point. Thanks,

I think Buddy was great. I am too young to have grown up listening to him but I like listening to his stuff sometimes. I am not real big into the big band thing but I enjoy good musicianship in any style of music. He is not my personal favorite which is the criteria for greatest drummer ever (if the truth is told). In my opinion, the most overrated drummer of all time is Neal Peart but that is because I didn't grow up listening to him or hear all the innovations he did. If I had I would probably think differently about him. Now I think there are many guys who are better than him but I give him credit for starting it all. I do think he is good however, just not as good as many drummers think he is. These are all opinions and I expect that many don't agree with me. That's why I think it is so cool that there are so many different styles and musicians out there available to listen to so that we can all listen to what we enjoy listening to (unless we are stuck in a car listening to nasty country music like I was this weekend).

Can his hands move as fast as Buddy's? Quite possibly. But would that make him as good or better? Not from what I've seen.

And that's what this keeps coming down to: what I've seen. I've seen Virgil live, and I've seen Buddy live. No comparison. Virgil had impressive solo chops. Buddy was a freakin' force of nature. Watching Buddy was literally life-changing. Watching Virgil simply made me think "wow, he sure must have practiced a lot."

And as far as Virgil handling anything Vinnie threw at him, again, maybe his limbs are capable of it. Is that all you judge in a drummer - what their limbs can do? I'm far more interested in their minds; their personalities. Vinnie has created a memorable body of work, to which he continues to add. Vinnie has blazed new trails in music, not just physical accomplishment. Same with Buddy. Vinnie's improvisational skills have a depth that just about NOBODY out there can touch. He's in a league with guys like Tony, Elvin, and DeJohnette, and in many ways, he's reaching beyond them. Virgil isn't in that league, not by a long shot.

Virgil just strikes me as a guy who's taught his arms and legs to do a bunch of stuff. I've seen him, and it didn't excite me. I've seen Buddy, and had my jaw on the floor. I've seen Vinnie, and had my brain explode.

It's all a matter of taste. But you keep asking, and I've got a perspective you don't, in that I've seen ALL of these guys live. And I'm reporting on what I've seen.

If you dig Virgil, that's great. He's a terrific drummer, to be sure, and is definitely one of the physical masters of the instrument. But he's SO far from being on my list of favorite musicians, that I have to confess, I almost never even think about him. YMMV.

Sorry to be a broken record. But I've seen both these guys, and do not for one minute believe Virgil could blow Buddy away in ANY respect other than the size of his drumkit. You really had to have seen Buddy.

And understand this: Buddy is FAR from my favorite drummer. I'm not saying this because I'm defending a personal favorite. I'm far more into guys like Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Russ Kunkel, and so on. I have much more of an emotional connection to them than to Buddy.

But in terms of a drummer just being, well, jaw-droppingly impressive, Virgil couldn't hold a candle to Buddy - nobody I've seen could. And I say that having seen them both live and in their prime.

But it's all just opinion, so if you want the last word, go for it. I'm done.

My buddy has an awesome record collection <more like a library>.  I  can't wait for him to record on cd for me some Buddy records we came across yesterday.  Unfortunately, I seemed to have missed the Buddy chapter.  I have a lot of catching up to do.  Can't wait.

In my opinion, one of the best drummers around is Dennis Chambers.  If Chambers cited Buddy as an influence, he must've been great.

Dennis is a huge Buddy fan.

(I'm paraphrasing here, it's been awhile) But he once told a story about seeing Buddy play live when Buddy's bass pedal's spring broke. Dennis said Buddy was looking around for his tech but he was nowhere to be found.

He said Buddy (with no spring on the pedal mind you) continued to play and even sped up at one point playing 32nd notes. Like he was doing it to "spite" the pedal for breaking.

Dennis tells the story with awe in his eyes.

It's hard to even contemplate.

The pedal was probably afraid of him.  

  Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment but, one interesting thing to note about Virgil Donati is that he studied with Philly Joe Jones. He was also personally referred by Mr. Jones for a Bill Evans audition, which he regrettedly missed. It would have been interesting to hear him in that context.

  This is not an argument, just a general piece of information that I found very interesting when I learned about it.

I am sure this is a little redundant but I just want to stress the fact of the sound of his drums were like nobody one elses, again he had his own sound.

On the Philly Joe thing, did you know he idolized Buddy and Buddy hired him to warm up the band when Philly did not have a gig for a few yrs?
Tony Williams towards the end also said Buddy was the man he was trying to get to.

Bob Levey

The only drummer from the same era that could stand toe-to-toe with Buddy is Joe Morello. Buddy once told Joe that Joe could play anything that he could. They both have incredible technique which allows for incredible chops. IMHO Joe has it all over Buddy in the area of independence.