paul
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 1365
|
 |
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2004, 09:30 AM » |
|
After watching my new "Channel One Suite" DVD a couple of times, I had to revisit this thread.
When Rich starts "Love For Sale" it seems markedly faster than on the original recording, and I was wondering whether he still had the chops to pull off the single stroke roll that was his signature there. No worries. Not only did he nail it, but followed it up with some fast triplets with the bass drum.
This is an amazing video, especially when you consider that he was 67 years old when it was done, looked older than that, and had already had spinal surgery and a quadruple bypass.
What an inspiration!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely preferable to the presence of those who think they've found it. - Terry Pratchett My drum page
|
|
|
Dave Heim
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 4743
I'm Dave Heim, and I approve this message.
|
 |
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2004, 04:54 PM » |
|
After watching my new "Channel One Suite" DVD a couple of times, I had to revisit this thread.
When Rich starts "Love For Sale" it seems markedly faster than on the original recording, and I was wondering whether he still had the chops to pull off the single stroke roll that was his signature there. No worries. Not only did he nail it, but followed it up with some fast triplets with the bass drum.
This is an amazing video, especially when you consider that he was 67 years old when it was done, looked older than that, and had already had spinal surgery and a quadruple bypass.
What an inspiration!
No kidding! I've watched the DVD twice now. Amazing stuff. The extras are interesting as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
justdave01
Cafe VIP
Bronze Member
Offline
Posts: 145
Anybody got a can of groove I can borrow?
|
 |
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2004, 06:13 PM » |
|
who's the best? Don't know, it sure ain't me. My chops are hurtin for certain against any of these guys. I can keep time though. Ha Ha
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
a pata who?
|
|
|
|
Tamadrumer88
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2005, 12:31 PM » |
|
Buddy Rich is definatley up there as one of the best drummers, but I will have to side with those who believe that nobody can be the best drummer ever. There are too many different styles and musical backgrounds to judge who is the best in my opinion. Of course we all have our favorites.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
paul
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 1365
|
 |
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2005, 01:13 AM » |
|
Until I see someone play the things he did, Rich rules.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely preferable to the presence of those who think they've found it. - Terry Pratchett My drum page
|
|
|
|
rayvonr
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2005, 09:51 AM » |
|
Man! Nothing like making a statement about Buddy to stir things up! My answer to Newbeats original question is this. When you don't hear what the hype is about, check out the guys history and listen to more recordings. Is Arturo better than Miles? Was Miles better than Armstrong? They each did their thing. I grew up listening to Buddy and Morello and Krupa and Bellson....and have seen them all more than once. I've seen Vinny and Weckle and Chambers and Donnati. I love Gadd. It really doesn't matter who's "the best of all time!" However, for Newbeat's original question; Newbeat, you are correct in your assessment that there are drummers who have done things that Buddy didn'tdo. My answer is that he just didn't get a chance or the opportunity or have the desire to do them. The stories you hear about Buddy playing an entire concert and nobody could tell his arm was broken, or playing with a broken pedal and still playing as if it was normal, or the time he was tired of hearing about Louie's double bass drums so he added a bass drum to his kit and played his solo one night with just his feet! These stories are all true and witnessed! The thing that set him apart was not only what he did, but how he did it. The man hardly practiced! He could basically do anything with his hands and feet that his brain could conceive and do it without practice and without figuring it out ahead of time! His parents were in vaudville and one day his father heard the drummer goofing around in the pit and went out to reprimand him and found out it was his 18 month old son doing it! He could go as fast as he wanted, could play things in odd time if he wanted, and could play any music if he wanted, including rock and fusion etc.... But he wanted to play jazz, not country or commercial or society or rock. He played what he wanted to play....at least later in his career, and he did it better than anyone else. That's why he was legendary. You can only see what Buddy did on video and recordings, but any great artist does things on the spur of the moment when playing live that is only captured by the people in attendance that night. It may never be repeated, but it will be forever be remembered by those that saw it. Just appreciate drummers for their individual talents. I'm blown away by Virgil for what he does. I love Weckle for what he does. I love the musicality of Morello and Gadd and Roach. Basically, I enjoy hearing anyone do what I can't do and wish I could! It gives me something to work on....all the time! Don't get caught up in the who's best stuff. It's too subjective and can never be answered! who would have won....Louis or Ali? Who's better...Ruth or Bonds? Who cares?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mister Acrolite
Sous Chef
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5646
Mr. Positive
|
 |
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2005, 09:52 AM » |
|
Check out the Enter key. Great for creating paragraphs.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
sirdrumalot
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2005, 02:41 PM » |
|
My eyes! There's something about reading on the internet that's hard for my eyes, I guess I'm not alone.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
newbeat
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2005, 06:42 PM » |
|
I got through it fine...although I have better than average eyes.  Thanks rayvonr, I understand what you are saying. Since I am out of Buddy's time, I can only see the history book version, not the living, breathing thing, so I most likely miss a lot. I just have one question: how do people know he never practiced? I have heard that many times, and it seems to be a major point of people praising him. I just know that over time, people usually exagerrate about things they've seen, and tend to tell stories the way they want them to be told. Not that any of what you said isn't true, I just wonder. He could have amazing feel and dexterity naturally, sure, but I just can't see how you can be born with the specific muscles for drumming that well developed without ever training them. I'm sure he practiced. The human body is just not built that way--it would be like a pro tennis player or a violin virtuoso saying "oh, I never practice." Would you believe them?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Dave Heim
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 4743
I'm Dave Heim, and I approve this message.
|
 |
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2005, 07:13 PM » |
|
I just have one question: how do people know he never practiced? I have heard that many times, and it seems to be a major point of people praising him. He rehearsed his band. But as for not practicing - he said he didn't. Those closest to him have said the same. He started playing at a very early age and already had chops back then. He also performed 330-340 nights a year. I've read that he sometimes warmed up a little.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chip71
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 2610
|
 |
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2005, 08:59 PM » |
|
He also performed 330-340 nights a year.
 Wow! He didn't need to practice....That's awesome! The guy was a workaholic. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"When you quit learning you start dieing"-My Grandfather
|
|
|
|
rayvonr
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2005, 10:18 PM » |
|
That's why people say Buddy was the best of all time. He did it effortlessly and naturally. He never really had time to practice.
He was the second highest paid child star in the world and this was when he was 2-5 yrs. old. He didn't practice because he was already performing full time. I'm sure he watched other drummers and he was friends with all of them so I'm sure he picked things up, but he had no formal training. Where the rest of us woodshed in the basement or garage, Buddy was already perfroming.
Buddy was just a freak of nature!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2005, 06:14 AM » |
|
That's a load of crap that Buddy didn't practice. He didn't take formal lessons and could not read a lick of music, but he sure as hell practiced his chops. I know this as a fact from one of his peers, Joe Morello.
Things may come faster to you than others, but you don't get that good without practicing. That was part of Buddy's mistique, that he never practiced. Ray get your facts in order before spreading misinformation.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
paul
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 1365
|
 |
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2005, 09:57 AM » |
|
Whether he practiced or not is irrelevant. The only thing that counts is what he did on the bandstand. How he got there is unimportant.
There's a story told by Henry Adler, respected drummer and teacher, in "Drummin' Men", But Korall's book. He said that when he met the 18 year old Buddy Rich the young man's technique was absolutely perfect. Rich claimed to have never had a formal lesson, but apparently held the sticks instinctively the right way. Having grown up in vaudeville, seeing and hearing some of the best drummers working in pit bands, Rich probably picked up a lot of things from those guys, and likely got a lot of informal lessons, but the life itself, with its constant travel, would have made formal training difficult.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely preferable to the presence of those who think they've found it. - Terry Pratchett My drum page
|
|
|
KevinD
Gold Member
Online
Posts: 648
I love the Drummer Cafe!
|
 |
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2005, 07:31 AM » |
|
Who's better...Ruth or Bonds? Who cares?
Ruth
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Drum4JC (Todd)
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 1700
Psalm 150
|
 |
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2005, 09:48 PM » |
|
I see the question this way:
1. I don't care who's fastest. There's tons of guys who blow my chops out of the water. But I do like fast when done musically.
2. Buddy was a pioneer. Mr. Acrolite said it well on page 1. He did things that transcended drumming and affected the band and its music.
3. If todays greats all cite Buddy as an influence, or call him the greatest, there must be something to that.
4. I think it's imperative to know the history of our craft, and the people who affected it the most. My dad played Buddy's records for me as a kid and I took it in. I prefered to crank my Tommy Aldridge and Neil Peart records, but I took that with me. Now I'm in my 30's and love jazz even more than all of the other music that I like. I teach beginners and I usually provide a CD with a lot of different drummers to check out. Buddy is on it more than anyone. (Steve Smith is 2nd).
In summary, all I know is this: Buddy couldn't be touched in his day (and many argue still can't). I'm not qualified to get into it more than that!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Coming in 2008: The Delta-3 Snare Drum by Fusion Drums. www.fusiondrums.com. Look for updates here at the Drummer Cafe!
|
|
|
|
ILikeDrums
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2005, 01:14 AM » |
|
Musicianship should be considered just as much as technical prowess. Sure, a drummer with burning chops is impressive, but chops are going to get old real quick if the drummer can't do anything with them. A great drummer, like any other musican, has to think musically. Sure, Buddy had chops that could blow just about any other drummer out of the water. Sure, somebody else might be able to come along and be just a tad faster than Buddy.
What made Buddy great was his overall level of musicianship. He had some of the hottest chops ever, but what impresses me more is his ability to utilize those chops in actual music making, not just a showoffy solo. Listen to Buddy's presence in a band. He simply OWNED anyone and everyone in the band and in the room. Listen to the way he phrases what he plays. If he plays a balls-to-the-wall single stroke, it's going to be relevant and complimentary to the music. In the end, that's way more challenging than pure technique. At least IMHO.
A good drum solo - be it trading fours with a swing band, in a drum battle, or just totally rocking out - has to have direction; has to have phrasing; has to have musicality. If it was all about technique, then why wouldn't every drummer just burn a single stroke roll for as long as they could every solo? That'd definitely be technically impressive, but it would also get boring in about 7 seconds.
On a textbook level, Elvin had crappy technique. With that said, why do so many people consider him to be among the greatest drummers of all time? It was because of his ability to play with a band, not because of his monstrous chops.
I've heard a story about way back when, Billy Cobham and Louis Bellson had a battle. Billy started, and totally whipped out his pyrotechnical chops. Louis responded with a much more subdued, space-filled approach. Billy initially impressed everybody, and continued his balls-out approach. Louis, however, built up his soloing so it had a direction. It came from somewhere and it went somewhere. He was concentrating on phrasing and on the musical statement he was making as a whole. He eventually worked it up to his own pyro show of chops. In the end, the crowd thought, "oh, Billy's just doing his chops thing again," and, "oh man, Louie's really worked up a statement!"
Louis ended up winning the battle.
I guess my point is that if you want to just a drummer by pure technique, go for it. Just try to realize that many drummers value much more than just technique.
I feel that I took way too long to prove that point, arguably got off topic, and probably said a few things that will earn me some ridicule. Oh well. It's like 2 am now and I'm going to bed. haha. *yawn*
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Adam's Dad
supporter
Silver Member
Online
Posts: 280
'71 Ludwig Micro-Bop
|
 |
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2005, 08:50 AM » |
|
If you really want to compare Buddy to the comtemporary guys, listen to the Burning for Buddy CDs and then listen to the original recordings. You will hear a lot of "over the top" playing from the "Burning" drummers but you will hear Rich's musical magic on the originals. I just hear a lot of bombastic drumming that just doesn't work for those tunes.
Adam's Dad
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Put your foot on the rock and pat your foot, don't stop, put your foot on the rock" - Bill Withers from Kissing My Love"
|
|
|
Hummada
Copper Member
Offline
Posts: 33
Don't eat the yellow snow!
|
 |
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2005, 07:32 PM » |
|
Wow,
This is a heated subject!
My opinion is that there is no one that I have listened to that can compare to the music and chops that Buddy put to the music this day as a musician. He had SUPREME energy!
Like Buddy said-DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I wouldn't hang that in my shathouse
|
|
|
|
olias
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2005, 07:56 PM » |
|
I haven't seen this in a post yet-- Buddy TOLD us he was the world's greatest drummer. I don't remember if I came across this doing a research paper on him for sophomore English, or I heard him say it on the Tonight Show in the early 70's. I had the pleasure of seeing him live in '76 or '77 at Six Flags Over Texas after my high school band director ran away and joined Buddy's band. Buddy told us he was the best, and he backed it up with his playing. He was amazing.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|