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Author Topic: Musical virtuosity AND widespread popularity  (Read 1255 times)
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KevinD
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« on: December 13, 2004, 05:27 PM »

The Buddy Rich thread got me thinking. He had a lot of songs in his repertoire that were really popular and accessible by the public (Ease on Down the Road, West Side Story, Cute etc..) while at the same time requiring a high level of skill in just about any section of the band to pull off.

I'm trying to think of a band today that has virtuso musicians that are making viruoso type music while at the same time making big splash out there in popular music circles.

One example for me from back in the day would be Toto.  Although they had many such songs, "Rosanna" is one that was hugely popular but is also no walk in the park to play. More recently, Dave Matthews is an artist who writes popular, yet musically challenging songs. Apparently that is no easy trick.

I guess you could count Rush, Genesis and Yes but their heyday was more than a few years ago, I'm looking for bands that have come on the scene in the past 3-5 years.

Although the guys from Dream Theater are certainly great players, other than their one song in the early 90s I don't think they are making a huge public spalsh (in terms of airplay and total media exposure)

I wouldn't count session guys unless it is as a band ala Toto.

Any others? I'm sure there are but I'm having a foggy moment.
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2004, 06:12 PM »

personally, i listen to very little music that gets much airplay. perhaps the UK differs from the US in that respect - almost everything played on our national radio stations is poppy tripe.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2004, 08:16 AM »

Seems like to virtuosos have spurts of mainsteam popularity, then slide back to their "cult" stardom--Joe Satriani, Steve Vai (with David Lee Roth), Asia, and the like--pop up for a hit song or two then slip away.

These guys and many others are obviously fantastic players with great followings, but they don't really LIVE in the mainsteream.

Granted, today's popular music is subdivided into so many sub-groups.  Back in the 50's. 60's and even into the 70's the pop charts would include Bill Haley and the Comets, Mitch Miller, Lena Horne, and Conway Twitty--all on the same chart!!

I think therefore that what might be popular with a large segment of today's population is still very alien (even disliked) by a vast majority of the music listening public.  So virtuostic artists don't always/often get that stauration they would have in the "old days".
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2004, 09:04 AM »

most of the popular music i've heard today leaves me pretty flat. but i suppose allecia keys can go down as someone with widespread appeal who can play. i saw some interview with her where she was showcasing her classical chops, and she is without question talented.

do bands today even play their instruments? Huh
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2004, 09:13 AM »

danny carey. Tool in general.
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2004, 09:47 AM »

danny carey. Tool in general.

"Widespread popularity?" I don't think so.
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2004, 11:07 AM »

I'll go ahead and chime in with my standard Radiohead comments here.   As far as popularity & musical arrangements, they are a global band that has extremely talented musicians and the music they write isn't easy to reproduce.  

Bela Fleck & The Flecktones would be the other one to come to mind, yet they are well known, but maybe not as popular in mainstream music.

Sting, however, is popular and makes great music that isn't easy to play back as well.
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2004, 12:20 PM »

I'm looking for bands that have come on the scene in the past 3-5 years.

In pop? I can't think of any.

Maybe Incubus. But virtuoso is a strong word. I'd say they are good players, but virtuosos? Nah...

Prior to that, the only one that would fit the bill is the Dave Matthews Band.

I'd stick a virtuoso label on Carter for sure.


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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2004, 01:22 PM »

John Mayer could be in this category.  Sure he's uber pop these days, but if you haven't seen this kid shred on a guitar, your missin out.  He's shows his chops in his music, but they're subtle.

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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2004, 02:01 PM »

I'd say Rush. Maybe not as popular as some bands, but still has a huge following, and believe me... I saw them 5 times on their last 2 tours and they have never performed better.
Sting usually has a band full of virtuoso's (Miller, Sancious, Colaiuta, Hakim, Katche, etc, etc) and he is extremely popular.
DMB has Carter, but to me, the rest of the band is mediocre. I would not listen to them at all if it were not for Carter.
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2004, 06:41 PM »

Seems like virtuosos have spurts of mainsteam popularity, then slide back to their "cult" stardom...

With that in mind, I humbly suggest Steely Dan.
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2004, 02:59 AM »

I'm still waiting for a viable suggestion.
Many of the bands mentioned so far don't sell outside the US. DMB have not even toured in Europe (except for Mathews himself, solo).
Steely Dan and Rush no longer qualify as widespread popular bands IMO. I wouldn't call the Radiohead guys 'virtuosi'..... talented? interesting? yes!
It all goes to reinforce my opinion that great music is often created by talented musicians who aren't shackled by technical excellence. Most virtuoso players (Satriani is a great example) are too hung up on showing off their technique to notice their material is poor.
The closest you can come to the popular virtuoso performer is the 'backing band'.
Guys like Sting, Bowie and Gabriel are not virtuoso instrumentalists themselves, but they are good and they've filled their bands with some of the best musicians around today.
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2004, 05:59 AM »

When I think of the definition of widespread populariity, I think of someone who would appeal to me, my parents, some Rap fan, and some country guy.  An act that crosses-over and over and over.

Can someone name THAT entertainer these days?

Maybe someone like Shania Twain maybe ?, but she's really not a BAND now is she.
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2004, 06:34 AM »

personally, i listen to very little music that gets much airplay. perhaps the UK differs from the US in that respect - almost everything played on our national radio stations is poppy tripe.
No, in that respect the UK doesn't differ at all from the US.  Poppy tripe and classic rock.  I've pretty much concentrated on jazz and more obscure funk and rock to get my musical enjoyment.  Basically nothing from the radio, which is sort of misleading since I really never listen to the radio (except for WWOZ here in New Orleans).
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KevinD
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2004, 10:46 AM »


Most virtuoso players (Satriani is a great example) are too hung up on showing off their technique to notice their material is poor.

I agree, and that is kind of what i'm getting at, I think it is rare to find those players or writers that can burn on their instrument(s) (maybe my use of the term "virtuoso" was a bit strong but I have a limited vocabulary  Embarrassed )but also write accessible material that everyone likes. We have a handful of candidates so far but only a handful. If we had looked at this 10- to 20 years ago I think we would have had a bunch more.

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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2004, 11:01 AM »

Other than Buddy, only a few instrumentalists have attained popularity in recent years through virtuosity. I think Eddie Van Halen is probably at the forefront in this regard. Maybe Kenny G (don't throw rocks - I can't stand his music, but even the most badass, Kenny-hating sax players I know will admit that Kenny's technique is impeccable.) Guys like Jeff Beck have done well, but aren't exactly household names.

Vocalists get more opportunities to cash in on their chops, as the careers of Mariah, Streisand, Whitney, Luther, Christina Aguilera (who may act like a stripper, but she can SING), Jarreau, etc. demonstrate.

But it does seem that the scenario of the virtuoso drummer who's also a household name is pretty darn rare.
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2004, 11:09 AM »

I know you're going to love this, but........
Steve Gadd was virtually a household name in the late 70's, early 80's......well, an almost famous drummer of that period at least.
A virtuoso of course.
Apart from that I can't think of any drummers.
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2004, 11:10 AM »

I've got to plug Santana here---one of the few mainstream bands that have been around for a long, long time, play instruments, write their own songs, and most importantly, implement awesome percussion accompaniments--Raul rocks>.  The fact that their music is a cultural fusion of latin, afro-cuban and rock elevates them further in their level of musicianship, creativity and originality. While the music may not be as technically complex as say, Al DiMeola <another virtuoso, but unfortunately not a household name>, they are still one of the bands around that, in my opinion, are great players and have achieved mainstream popularity.  <Of course, they achieved more popularity with the younger audience via the mainstream "Supernatural" album, which also shows their ability to be stylistacally versatile and smart. <8 grammys--hello!>

With Chambers, Perazzo and Rekow, they're the toughest rhythm section out there in mainstream music today.  

Long live the guitar solo! <an element the mainstream sometimes leaves out>
Long live the piano solo!
Long live latin rock!
Long live timbales and congas in mainstream music!
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2004, 11:23 AM »

Yo-Yo Ma on the classical front.
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ritarocks
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2004, 11:29 AM »

Yo-Yo Ma on the classical front.
don't be talkin' bout my mama....
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2004, 06:10 PM »

 He said "Yo-yo Ma", not "Yo mama" Tongue
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ritarocks
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2004, 09:34 PM »

He said "Yo-yo Ma", not "Yo mama" Tongue

I know  Roll Eyes.  It was a joke.
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« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2004, 08:30 AM »

My mom ain't no Yo Yo!  Wink

Dave Mathews always seems to drag around a real class act of great musicians,,
Also, Sting and Santana..

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Tony
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2004, 08:42 AM »

Quote
Posted by: chrisso  Posted on: December 15, 2004, 03:59:38 AM  
I'm still waiting for a viable suggestion.
Many of the bands mentioned so far don't sell outside the US. DMB have not even toured in Europe (except for Mathews himself, solo).
Steely Dan and Rush no longer qualify as widespread popular bands IMO. I wouldn't call the Radiohead guys 'virtuosi'..... talented? interesting? yes!
It all goes to reinforce my opinion that great music is often created by talented musicians who aren't shackled by technical excellence. Most virtuoso players (Satriani is a great example) are too hung up on showing off their technique to notice their material is poor.
The closest you can come to the popular virtuoso performer is the 'backing band'.
Guys like Sting, Bowie and Gabriel are not virtuoso instrumentalists themselves, but they are good and they've filled their bands with some of the best musicians around today

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Dave Matthews Band may not tour Europe (not a lot of US artists do to the level they do in the States), but this isn't an automatic disqualifier.  They are a band of very good musicians, who also have worldwide popularity.  You don't sell 30 million albums (49th all time in album sales) without having some success outside the US.

I also disagree with your assesment of "virtuostic players" like Satriani.  To classify their music as poor because they get caught up in their technique is a pretty narrow minded point of view.  While it may not be your cup of tea and doesn't subscribe to your particular experience within the music industry, it certainly isn't poorly written or played.  Is Joe Satriani or Yngwie Malmsteen going to sell 40 million albums? No, probably not, but that certainly doesn't discredit their music or their contribution to the industry.  

As for virtuostic type bands with popularity, I would have to say that Phish is a band that qualifies.  The players are much more skilled than most players on the scene, and that includes session playeres.  True, they only sell 500,000 or so copies of their studio releases, but this is a band that lives and dies for the live experience.  There aren't a lot of bands out there today playing to crowds of 70,000 without any type of real marketing, or mention in most trade magazines.  Those of you who were like me, turned off by the fan base of this group, please, do yourself a favor and listen to some of their live releases, ie "A Live One" or "Hampton Comes Alive".  The level of talent in this band is tremendous, and they are obviouslt popular, since they are in the Top Ten in Pollmaster every year they tour.
 

 
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2004, 12:38 PM »

i'd say it's pretty sad that we still can't REALLY name a band that fits this category -- Phish are not THAT widely known, Santana is not a new band and all the vocalists we mentioned have backing bands; they're not really A BAND.

i guess this leaves us with Hanson, who are now a little bit older and less mmmmbop-ish.

 Tongue


if i ever get to be a good drummer, and my band makes it, then y'all can say smogg is a band with widespread appeal and musical virtuosity.

ok. maybe not widespread appeal.


 Grin
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2004, 12:50 PM »


I've visited this thread fairly regularly to see if I can think of any additions. I've pretty much failed ... certainly in the category of "in the last 5 years."

The only four I could come up with, that the public (in my case represented by my wife) would recognise as "great musicians", are:

- Phil Collins
- Grover Washington
- George Benson
- Carlos Santana
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2004, 02:17 PM »

 

As for virtuostic type bands with popularity, I would have to say that Phish is a band that qualifies.    

Wow I totally forgot about them. I agree, although I'm not really into their music or the whole cultural thing behind it, they are really good musicians who can pull off a varieity of styles. Their popularity is amazing since (among other things) I doubt they've ever had a song played on a Clear Channel radio station, which seems to be the most dominant popular radio (read corporate)  network going today.
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2004, 05:19 PM »

i'd say it's pretty sad that we still can't REALLY name a band that fits this category -- Phish are not THAT widely known, Santana is not a new band and all the vocalists we mentioned have backing bands; they're not really A BAND.

Well, I still say DMB qualifies.  As for Phish, I think selling out arenas and constantly posting in the top 10 in concert gfrosses year in and year out is pretty widely known.  Factor in their final concert was simulcast to over 100 theaters nationwide and globally on XM Radio, attended by 70,000 people,  and covered by NPR, MSNBC, CNN and a host of other news outlets (which really adds no credibility in my eyes, but is a testament to how well known they are) I would say they are pretty widely known.  As KevinD stated, its all been done with limited airplay or traditional marketing techniques.  And I don't think anyone who really listens to the music can say that those guys are not great musicians.
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