Hi there. I'm a newbie to the site and hope I can help others aswell as get some advice. The second I need at the mo though if anyone can help please.

I lead a band; diverse hard rock type thang, similar to say Living Colour or a modern led zep with an avant edge to it

I have a bit of a problem; the drummer in the band has a habit...to me a bad habit, of syncopating almost %50 of the song...ggrrrrr!

I am very experienced with drummers, the one type of musician that I have a very good understanding of from a guitar point of view (I grew up learning Al Di Meola, Mclaughlin, and have I've been told I have excellent timing & rythmn (!). My playing is extremely influenced by drummers; Will Calhoun, Trilok Gurtu, Steve Gadd, Copeland, Keith Le Blanc, and I  hear the drums really pin-point under the music I write for the band, sooo, the music is written with a particular groove in mind...but the drummer is just not getting it yet he's very experienced!

The problemo of the drummer; alot of syncopation, is killing the music, but I am finding it very hard to get him to understand that driving the music does not come from playing like it's a "showcase" every time we rehearse. He takes it all a bit too personal when I say "Just do a groove all the way thru the song and put 8's on the hi-Hat, then build it up", but he seems to think that it's boring! Why!! This is a band, and like any job there is the boring & the interesting. It's as boring as you make it right!?

How do I get thru to the guy that groove is only as boring or interesting as you make it. I've played him songs by Living Colour, for example Postman off Stain (their 3rd album) and the drums do a straight 4/4 with hi-hat 8's aaall the way thru just about, yet it is extremely dynamic because of the space (anyone know this song?). What should I say to him to understand this? I've almost run out of being nice about this; it's been a couple of months already about the synco problem. Is it a lack of practice or his head being somewhere else maybe?

Anyway, the drummer does not hear the 8's on his hi-hat, only the quarters, and too often making the music sludgy. I think for him it's "more interesting" by constantly syncopating, putting whole bar fills out of verses going into chorus's (a quart/half bar should be enough), matching my cross rythmn where it happens, etc. He's the 1st drummer I've come across who plays like no-one else I can recognise! That's good & bad at the moment.

I'm on the verge of saying "bye" to him as he doesn't take in what I am saying (I'm working on better angles to approach the subject...that's why I'm here!) and the music is dying a slow death because of this...but he can't hear it!!! The thing is that he's excellent at syncopation and fills but his groove is "muddy"....is this a taste thing, an insecurity thing, a pure defiance thing or haven't I found the best way to explain...please help!! I've had 2-3 sleepless nights as this is very important to me & the others and don't really want to say "bye bye" as I feel the understanding is there some where in his brain cavity.

Has anyone had to deal with this before? You will be saving a very good drummer from losing his job in a good band, and all drummers need saving I think!

Thanks in advance, Nikolas Kolya

Needless to say this isn't something that only happens with drummers.  I used to play with a bass player who I (semi)jokingly called our "lead" bass player cuz he wouldn't just play a simple bass line/rhythm--everything was "Jaco-ized" or "Stanley Clarke'd".

I do not play with him any longer.

Maybe some folks like that style of playing all the time, and this guy will be a perfect fit for THEM.  If he isn't working out then you need to either tell him to fall in line or you'll have to look for someone else.  Though the answer is simple, it can be hard to implement, but business is business.

Agreed; I was once unable to do anything other than widdle in a band situation, but practice makes perfect.

A little parallel thinking and less of the dreaded EGO I think makes even the worst musician earn a little respect.

Business is business I hope I won't have to point out.

thanks

Thank you for the vote of confidence; it's very much appreciated.

Kolya

I've had sh*tty people lead me before, so I always said when I start my own thing I would be the best I could be to the players involved, obviously within reason. I am entitled to say bye to him, and he knows this, but I hired him because I recognised something that was unique & quality about his playing, so I suppose it's whether that's getting jaded or not in the musical context.

I have no quams about sacking him if it comes to it...as Jon E put it, business is business.

Yes, I would have to search for another drummer, which is tedious but may have to be thought about seriously. All the guys I know who are at the level we expect usually play Jazz/fusion or whatever but not rock; they've moved on. It took me a little while to get a more-than-average drummer who knew their stuff & also liked hard rock.
I do have a very clear vision of the band & the music, and everyone involved knows what this is, and finally they understand it and agree it's one to follow.

Most of the time the musicians creativity enhances the bands performance; they are thirsty and talented, and in it for the slog, though not mr drummer at the moment; he's making it feel very un-natural & the instinct is being diminished. But when he's good he can be amazing.

We are a band that includes experimentation, usually song based but diverse material, and share @$%# good musicianship and improvising for all, if the music asks for it (being a guitarist that can be often... If I was a drummer in the situation, to be honest I'd be licking my lips at the potential & organisation. I suppose everyone is different, and horses for courses.

The decision will present itself I think, whether from him deciding to be open with his adaption to the music, or whether the others in the band help me make a decision. It is after all a band and others are affected by this. I do speak firstly, yes, for what I want, but only because I know it's also what others want.

Ideal scenario is he realises that playing beautiful hi-hat flourishes next to a grinding groove is actually @$%# fine fun and what it's all about really, playing music, which really is the best @$%# profession created!

I'll post the hot news when I get it!

 

It's amazing how good "uncluttered and simple" can sound. It sounds like he's so busy with his own thing that he's only hearing himself and not the rest of the band. A common problem for self taught drummers. Music instruction is much different than drum lessons. A little music theory wouldn't hurt. Everybody has hit the nail on the head..... You've got to show some class and play for the music. If not, you're just a solo artist that's in a band. Emphasize the key word.... "Listen". If he just ignores the truth just move on. There no reason the entire band should lose sleep over this issue. Great chops doesn't make for a great musician if you don't know where "not" to play.    

Top session drummers are paid a lot of money because they know what is appropriate in any given musical situation.  I am remembering seeing a well known session drummer in the UK playing with an orchestra that was accompanying a middle-of-the-road singer.  The song was in in 12/8 and all he did was to tap out the 12 beats on the snare drum with brushes.  Even as the orchestra built to a crescendo he didn't change a thing.  It was beautifully simple and effective.  OK, I know, you needed to hear it, but even Buddy Rich would blend into the background when he was accompanying a singer!!

On the other hand, drummers are used to people trying to explain to them what they want but who are not drummers and don't know how to play it.  Some drummers ignore this and say "yeah, yeah" and carry on doing what they were doing.  The most effective solution for this is for the other person to jump and the drum kit and play the rhythm he wants.  

We had a rehearsal last night after this last week of help from a few people & alot of thinking, and it gave us all an opportunity to discuss what I had planned with the music & the ideas everyone had for the songs, while also pulling up a few good points that you all have discussed here; thanks by the way to all.

After starting off explaining to the guy that it was what the music wanted and not just what us as individuals wanted, we attempted to play what I & the others were asking, but on the 2nd attempt he went back to his usual pattern & I stopped the band instantly & a huge argument came of it. He said 'you want me to play a loop, I'm not that type of drummer', after asking him to play an absolute straight but strong 4/4.....for only 2 bars!!

The issues of daily life obviously can affect us and effect the music we play, and to be honest this is what I feel is the problem here; he has a girlfriend who bullies him with her mother-in law, and he feels we are all having a dig at him in this way, though that is ridiculous. One of the main differences between players who are high level amateurs & those who are professional is their ability to put another head on in the musical situation; leave the baggage at the door.

There's still some work to do with all this stupidity. We all felt sorry for the guy last night, his naivity was shocking. It may be time to replace him, time will tell.

By the way, what I had asked him to do transformed the song how I new it would, the others loved it, but he was still blinded because of his defiance.

A real shame and sad.

You just nailed it.  

I can certainly relate to venting my frustrations from a sucky day on my drums. However;  when I feel crappy, I play crappy, but it lets the steam out.  If my sucky day happens to immediately preceed rehearsal night, I tend to do just the opposite of your man.  I play as straight and steady as I can, so as not to screw up the music.

If this guy is just a frustrated soloist, work up a couple of tunes that feature his virtuosity and make it clear that that is a trade off for playing straight on the other tunes.  It may work.

Naivite'  is the key word here.  A band does not exist to showcase any individual's talents expect possibly the leader's and he isn't it. It has to be a collective effort.  

Pete Best is a decent dummer, but the Beatles bounced him for a not very flashy but steady dude named Ringo.

The best answer for his sake and yours may be to let him go.  I don't know what his experience in band situations is, but getting bounced from a few more bands may make him see the light.

Roger

I was also going to suggest having a couple tunes that feature drums so he can relax on the other songs.

A key thing to me that the drummer said was boredom.  Maybe you can challenge him to come up with drum parts that keep a steady hat/ride, kick and snare pattern but then add other things into the mix while keeping those 3 elements solid.  It's up to him to make his part not boring (to him) while still fitting the music.  There are an infinite number of things that can be done to make something that is simple sounding yet is very challenging at the same time.  That is, without resorting to speed and over the top fills where they are uncalled for or overused.

Try to find out what his motivation is for playing the way he plays, that may answer a lot.

We are only hearing your side of things and I must admit you sound very reasonable.  If at the end of the day the drummer is only playing for himself and refuses to compromise on anything, anywhere then you have no choice but to replace him.