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Author Topic: How long is too long?  (Read 610 times)
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J.R.
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« on: August 05, 2005, 01:18 AM »

OK I can be honest here right? Lips Sealed

I need a little insight into what direction to go musically as it relates to band members.

I started drumming about 1 year ago saying that "I'll never play in a band, I'll never play a gig." Wink

About 6 months after that I started a band, well not really a band , but started playing with a guitarist that had been playing about 1 year and wasn't very good, neither was I so who cared.  We got better and decided we better look for a bassist.  As "luck" would have it a friend of mine was starting to play bass.  Then we were 3.

Now the bass player is really a mess.  I can probably count on one hand the #of times he has made it all the way thru a song without stopping (I'm not talking about playing correctly, just playing all the way thru).  If I try to help him he says "I know" "I got it" - BUT HE DOESN'T!
He frequently misses practices which I don't really mind because I feel like we get more done without him there.  ie last week the guitarist brought in a riff & it took us one hour to lay it down and arrange it into a song.  Today it took us an hour and a half to show it to him - and it was already done - AND at the end of that he still couldn't play it right.  Angry

I'm not 100% satisfied with the guitarist either, but I do see alot more progress and enthusiasm on that end.  Refusing to learn/apply basic techniques of your instrument and not taking constructive criticism bother me.  Criticism is taken like this; " oh yeah I totally see that" and then nothing changes.

It is not me handing out the criticism, mind you. We happen to know alot of musicians and play tapes of ourselves for them.  I've been privvy to the conversations or asked what so and so said when he heard the tapes?  "oh he said I should do less of this and more of this" - but nothing changes.  I don't play guitar but I understand the comments and have to admit I agree.  I just don't want you to think I'm behind my kit telling them "YOU SHOULD DO SO & SO" or "THAT WAS SLOPPY"  My helping them consists of supplying rhythms for them to strum to when they are having difficulty getting the rhythm.

Now I'm at a point where I don't think playing a gig is too far out of my reach.  As I said I do know alot of musicians but feel I'm a little below their level of skill for the most part.  I'm also unable to ask for advice from them because the other members of my band know most the same people I do.  Bunch of gossipy hens!!!  The people that I am able to speak to in confidence (2 total) have said this:
You are the strongest member of the band- (well the drummer should be!)
I'm taking it way more seriously then everyone else
Of course I have made no mention that I would even consider leaving or asking someone to leave.

Now to evaluate what I want from a band:

WHAT I DO WANT-
-Good people to play with - no egos (I got that now) Wink
-Regular practices - 1-2 times week
-Occasional gig - maybe 1 / month more or less
-Play originals - 2 covers tops (we have 6 orig.)


WHAT I DON'T WANT-
-Wasting years of my life without getting any of the above
-Money - I have a career that I like TYVM
-Fame

So what should I do?
Have any of you faced a problem like this?
Should I dump the bass player?(we've been friends for about 7 years)
Should I move on, dump them both?
Should I look onto a side project and continue with them as long as I can without killing myself?
Should I cross my fingers and hope for miracles, stick with them?

I should also mention that we are not young.  I'm 31.the others are 27 & 32 - I think?  We have been looking for a singer but I don't think we are having any luck 'cuz we pretty much suk!

And for anyone who read this whole long ranting post thank you so much, and any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated!!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

JR
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felix
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 08:10 AM »

Well...

You play drums cause you enjoy it right?  If it gets to the point where you don't enjoy it then change the situation so you enjoy it again.

Playing gigs is usually stressful.   The highs are high and the lows are low.  

1  year of playing is nothing.  You are just starting to scratch at the surface of playing drums.  I suggest keep taking lessons and practicing- playing with other musicians will follow... keep it casual.  Play jam nights, play with a metronome/click/ play with cd's and records- jam with a friend or two now and then.  Things will develop for you in time.  It's not a waste of time if you are enjoying yourself.  Don't expect much and you will be much happier when the "good things" about playing come to fruition.
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2005, 08:29 AM »

Wow ... there's a lot to talk about there. I'll address a couple of things, then post a little later to talk share a bit more.

Musicians, or creative people I should say, view their music and what they do as a very personal thing; it's like their baby. So they are protective of it, and often times don't want advice on what to do or not do with their "baby" ... even though deep down they do want advice.

If anyone wants to grow, regardless of the topic (ie. music, gardening, computer technology, etc.), you've got to get to the point that you realize you are in a learning process. No one expects you to KNOW everything, so don't pretend that you do. There's no need to posture youself in such a way that keeps you from receiving input ... so you can grow. No one likes to show their weaknesses, and for some reason take what they are working on and expect themselves (and others) to either "get it" very quickly ... or even to "already have it".  It's a cultural/social thing actually, and it drives me nuts!

What anyone does is not the full embodiment of who they are. If you are learning to play an instrument, just because you don't know it all or that you are still learning (we should all be learning till we die), it doesn't mean you are stupid, weak, inferior, lacking, slow, etc. Make sense? Your identity is not (or should I say should not be) wrapped up into how you perform on an instrument. Men seem to struggle with this more than women. Men, especially when they are young,  seem to often times struggle with the idea that they are somehow weak or less of a man if they take lessons, if they don't master something immediately, if they ask for help or advice, etc. Women are usually all about helping and encouraging one another.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about ...

Go to a clothing store. A woman may be looking a particular blouse, holding it up against her while standing in front of a mirror, checking to see if she likes it or not. While this is going on, a perfect stranger, who happens to also be female, walks by and says "oh, that would look nice on you ... the color really brings out your eyes." Now a man on the other hand, is at a music store checking out the drum department, tapping around a bit to see if he really wants to buy a drumkit and begin learning to play the drums. A perfect stranger, who happens to be male, walks by and says "dude, you are doing it all wrong ... it's like this!" Or the stranger doesn't say anything, but walks by, grabs a pair of drumsticks, sits down behind the kit and begins to blast away as IF to say ... "in case you were wondering, I'm really good. In fact, I'm better than you, and I know more than you do!"

So all of this to say this to you JR (drummer1202) ... I think you see this in your band members and friends, but you are playing right along with them and doing the exact same thing. Stop it!  Cool

You are putting unrealistic expectations on yourself and the people around you. They, in turn, are doing the exact same thing to you and others. It's like you are all in this huge arena, sparring and testing one another, trying to show who knows more, who's stronger, who's better. And trying not to show that you all are in a process, you are learning, you are growing, you are working things out. This perfectionistic, posturing mentality is going to kill you all. Let it go! I've had to deal with this in myself, and continue to have to deal with it from time to time.

You've only been playing for a short time. It's been said that it takes 30 years to truly master a musical instrument. If that's true then you ALL have a long way to go ... and that's okay. It's supposed to be fun. Music isn't a competitive sport, although many work hard to make it that. It's not about winning or losing, it's about being the best you can be.

I'm not surprised that others see you as the stronger player and that you are taking it more seriously. The fact that you posted this thread is evidence of that!

I want to encourage you with this ... work on growing in humility. This is something we ALL need to work on, especially me. To me, humility is the key to getting over 99% of what you are dealing with; in your band members, in your peers, and in yourself. Develop yourself in a positive manner and you'll bring out the best in others and yourself.

One last thing ... try to encourage the musicians you are working with to practice at HOME! You REHEARSE together; you PRACTICE at home. Don't limit yourself to just jamming or working with one guitarist and one bass player. Hang with people (musicians) who are already doing what you want to do. This is the best way to insure that you are working with people who have the same goals and visions. A band is like a marriage ... it only works if everyone involved believes it can work and want to give 100% to the cause. Music is your hobby, as you stated, but that doesn't mean you can't give 100% towards it. When you play, practice and rehearse, give it your all ... remaining humble, but confident. Hopefully the musicians around you will see this and glean from it.

If you enjoy the company of the people you are currently working with and wish to continue playing with them, you are probably going to have to do what I've suggested in order to keep the sanity.  Smiley
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mainedrummer
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2005, 08:35 AM »

I have to agree with felix - 1 year isn't much time.  I've been playing since the mid- 60's and have played in a lot of different settings.  As said before - the highs are high (sometimes extremely high) and the lows are . . .  well - low - sometimes low enough to make you wonder if it is really worth it.

Don't dump your friends but do make new (musical) connections - keep on growing and you should get enjoyment out of playing.

Very well put Bart . . .
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2005, 08:50 AM »

I agree with Bart,  you're setting your expectations too high for yourself and the others.  You guys need to realize that you have an advantage because you are not only  learning together but actually playing together.  I wish I had some buds to play along with when I was starting out.  I would have caught on so much quicker.  I just blasted the mini stereo in my room and played along with that.  It's true that I learned a lot doing that but I was also a bit of a crutch because I could just stop and come back in.  It's not just the criticism that you get that is valuable but also the presence, dynamic, and the energy.
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J.R.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2005, 02:13 PM »

Well...

You play drums cause you enjoy it right?  If it gets to the point where you don't enjoy it then change the situation so you enjoy it again.
Drumming is catharsis, creativity & communication for me.  I'm just wondering if this is normal, or maybe I am taking it too seriously?  Have you ever stopped playing with a friend for any reason like this? Ever played with friends?  Maybe I shouldn't?

Playing gigs is usually stressful.   The highs are high and the lows are low.  

I see this with my friend's bands(that have varying levels of success).  I went on a short tour in Puerto Rico with a friends band having a blast, and I've seen back stabbing and even a couple of fist fights too.  So I understand it, it's just something I would like to do.

1 year of playing is nothing.  You are just starting to scratch at the surface of playing drums.  I suggest keep taking lessons and practicing- playing with other musicians will follow... keep it casual.  Play jam nights, play with a metronome/click/ play with cd's and records- jam with a friend or two now and then.  Things will develop for you in time.  It's not a waste of time if you are enjoying yourself.  Don't expect much and you will be much happier when the "good things" about playing come to fruition.

Lessons - I do
Practice - I do
Play with friends - I do (aside from my band I mean)
Don't expect much - How do you keep yourself from having expectations?

Thanks felix
JR
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J.R.
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2005, 03:10 PM »

Wow thanks Bart!

I knew my post would sound very egotistical, but I'm really speaking from the heart w/o censoring anything or having concern for anyone's feelings.  Just me & my selfish thoughts.

I don't know you guys, so it makes it easier for me to just put it out there, cuz you don't have an opinion.  I also know that you are only hearing(reading) my views on the subject.   Maybe my bass player is on some bass forum telling the moderator what a pain in the a$$ his lousy drummer is!!!! Grin Grin Grin And the guitarist is dreaming up a way to dump these 2 losers without looking like a ego-crazed guitarist(I've heard they exist). Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Humility, patience and flexibility are things all people would benefit from more of.  Especially myself.  I will keep your advice in mind Bart.

If anyone has had similar experiences to mine I would like to hear them.  I want to know if I'm alone in this.  I've been around people that play music alot but never paid much attention to their goings on related to bands & so on.  Not my business.  Now I kind of wish I had been nosey about why so & so left this band or so snd so broke up.  

I don't really want this band to die here, but if this is all that it will ever be, I don't think I want 5-10 more years of this.
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drumwild
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2005, 03:18 PM »

First band is like first girlfriend. Lotsa fun and not much experience. You think she's the best, but a better one will come along.

I've been playing a long time, going on 36 years, and I'm still in learning mode because I want to constantly be learning new things and do whatever I can to become even better tomorrow than today.

As the first band is like the first girlfriend, keep it going... but don't be afraid to cheat (play in other bands).   Grin
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btoneill
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2005, 03:41 PM »

I have had this experience as well; almost word for word.  Bassist not taking it very seriously, ok guitarist that thinks he's better than he is so is hard to convince otherwise; ie. I say "Let's learn <blank> song" and he says "I can easily play that" and it goes on for a long time playing the song terribly.  Even with me being unsatisfied with the sound of our jam sessions, I can honestly say they are very worthwhile.  I learn to play with real live people rather than a ticking metronome, I become more comfortable playing in front of people, and I feel that I grow as a drummer through experimentation and producing new grooves that seem to only come out when jamming.

So, it really doesn't matter who your playing with; with an instrument every moment spent playing is a moment of learning, and from my experience, even bad bandmates have a positive impact on my progression as a musician.

Of course if I decide to become more serious and start gigging maybe some new guys will be necessary, but in all honesty I'll more willing to be patient and mold together with my buddies during jam sessions as I feel the best bands come from dedication from nothing to something.
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2005, 11:06 PM »

Humility, patience and flexibility are things all people would benefit from more of.  Especially myself.  I will keep your advice in mind Bart.

Here's a hint about me ... when I make really long posts, it's because I'm speaking more to myself than others. If I point my finger at someone, I've got my other three fingers pointing right back at me!  Grin  And I agree, we can all use more humility, patience and flexibility ... I know I need it ... and the older I get the more I realize just how much I need it.  Cool
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2005, 01:38 PM »



WHAT I DO WANT-
-Good people to play with - no egos (I got that now) Wink
-Regular practices - 1-2 times week
-Occasional gig - maybe 1 / month more or less
-Play originals - 2 covers tops (we have 6 orig.)


WHAT I DON'T WANT-
-Wasting years of my life without getting any of the above
-Money - I have a career that I like TYVM
-Fame

I know what you mean.  It's hard to find people who want and accept help. I try to be open to help even when I don't think I need it... in a word... egotistical. Music is full of them. But I think the problem is easy to solve. I think you need to find musicians at your ability (which sounds better than those of whcihc your playing now  Wink) and that you connect as musical opinions, styles, and that you can have normal conversations w/. After that, then you should be a good band.  Smiley

JR
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