Quite a specific question this:

I've been trying to build up my speed on single and double stroke rolls recently (aren't we all...) but I struggle when trying to identify what exactly guys I listen to are doing, which makes it hard to learn from them.  Perhaps someone can help me out.

The example I'm thinking of is the version of Crush by Dave Matthews Band from Live at Central Park.  During the extended outro, the band plays a syncopated pattern while Carter does some flashy licks over the top.  Now, at the very very end, for the last 8 bars or so, he plays an impossibly fast snare and tom fill which is not quite a consistent roll, and the pattern makes it sound almost like he's playing bounced double or triple strokes, even on the toms.

Can anyone enlighten me what the great man is actually doing here? How would you notate that rhythm he repeats if you were to write it down, and what sticking do you think he's using? Makes my head spin.

If you had a sound clip of this, that would help.

Carter does this a lot, actually.  If it's what I'm thinking of (I don't have the Central Park CD) I think he's just playing a single stroke roll as fast as he can.  I don't think you can 'transcribe' it per se because it's not really in rhythm.  It sounds like it could be 32nd notes but they don't match up.

I think he's just playing a single stroke roll and counting in his head so he'll know when to end it.  He does this live quite a bit.  

Of course, Carter is on a whole 'nuther plane (or is it plain) than your average drummer, so who knows.

It's a sixteenth note-eighth note lick. Really nothing special - simply one of the chops derived from doing your homework, which I'm undoubtedly sure Carter has.

Unfortunately, I have no way of transcribing it, and I'm not sure of any online resources I could refer you to.

My advice is to do the dirty work of drumming. Go get the Syncopation book and a teacher who knows their stuff - there are licks in that that you learn then think, "hey, that sounds like something Beauford would do!" In fact, if I recall correctly, there are lines in that book that are EXACTLY the pattern that Beauford does at the end of that tune (and in so many others).

It's boring and tedious, but I PROMISE you every drummer who's worth his weight in drumsticks knows all that stuff top to bottom, left to right, front and back. Once you do it, you'll thank yourself.

Dang...I got owned by Mr. A. How humbling

After rereading my post, I realized that it sounded pretty condescending of me. I'm really sorry about that. I didn't mean to be a jerk. FWIW, I really don't have the lick down as well as I talked like I do, so Mr. A calling me out was well deserved. I also remember how long and frustrating it was for me to learn it, so I feel even worse. Again, sorry man.

With that said, I've tried to do my best as quickly as i can to provide a more thorough explanation and resource for you. I quickly transcribed this by hand - no fancy work here - please excuse the crude nature. I hope you can at least read it.

This is my first attempt at ever using an image hosting site, or posting a pic on a forum, but here goes:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ilikedrums/Beaufordscan.jpg

It's a really interesting lick - distinctly polyrhythmic, with a 3 feel when played fast.

Also, if you have the Syncopation book, lines 33 and 34 of lesson Eleven (it's page 27 in my book) are VERY similar to this lick - in fact, it's two-thirds of it, in a matter of speaking.

I really hope this is helpful to you. If you have any further questions I'd be more than happy to offer whatever help I can.

Hey, cheers Bradford.  I didn't think you were being a jerk, but I much preferred your second answer! I'll get my hands on that book and get down to some dirty rudiment training.  

Thanks for laying down the law Mr. A!

I think I know that lick he's playing if I'm thinking of the right part of the solo. He plays four beats that can be counted as triplets, with the first two on the rack tom and the second two on the snare, which are accented. He switches around drums to, for instance he then plays that same pattern with the first two hits on the rack tom the third on the snare and the fourth on the tom again. There are alot of variations but that's the basic concept of what he plays. He also switches playing all four hits on tom then snare, hope this helps.

In drum corps we definitely call these hertas.  All you have to do is play triplets with your hands, put a double on the 1st note of each triplet and alternate the sticking the whole way through.

Move the diddle (or double) anywhere on the triplet.   As long as you alternate your sticking it is considered a herta (if you want to call it that!).  Of course this applies to 16ths as well, or any note value or time signature for that matter.

Put the double on any note and alternate the sticking...and whalla...a nice herta pattern!  It's really cool when you get comfortable playing these starting with your weak hand and you achieve that even feeling...start with that left!

Put doubles on every accent pattern you know and make them hertas.  Voice it around the kit in every possible way you can think of.  Apply every kind of dynamic.  Add some sweet crosses to your patterns. Practice this at slow, medium, fast and even faster tempos!

Move these alternating doubles around the kit in every way you can think of ascending on the toms, descending, playing each double on a different drum in every possible order...crescendo the entire measure, decrescendo the entire measure.  

Lots of sweetness to be had here.

I wrote the Cavaliers Tenor solo in 1996 and we did this...take the simple rhythm of 2 16ths and and an 8th (just reoccurring doubles) using the basic sticking of RLR LRL RLR LRL.

Cross the 2nd note (left hand) of the 3 note pattern over your right hand and then do the opposite for the next 3 note pattern, crossing the 2nd note over your left hand.

This makes a pretty sweet pattern to move around the kit...it's a great visual as well as creating some funky sounding hertas.

Can you tell I had my coffee this morning?  hehe, I just felt like going on a herta rant.  They always were one of my favorite things to mess around with!

May the Force be with you.

Actually, Carter gives mad props to Billy Cobham on his DVD.  Carter uses that same lick all the time in many different contexts.  He's a big fan of Billy's and isn't ashamed to admit it.



Did I just say 'mad props'?

is this the lick where he crashes, throws LRL on the toms and then R on on the snare? in triplet form?