Quite a specific question this:

I've been trying to build up my speed on single and double stroke rolls recently (aren't we all...) but I struggle when trying to identify what exactly guys I listen to are doing, which makes it hard to learn from them.  Perhaps someone can help me out.

The example I'm thinking of is the version of Crush by Dave Matthews Band from Live at Central Park.  During the extended outro, the band plays a syncopated pattern while Carter does some flashy licks over the top.  Now, at the very very end, for the last 8 bars or so, he plays an impossibly fast snare and tom fill which is not quite a consistent roll, and the pattern makes it sound almost like he's playing bounced double or triple strokes, even on the toms.

Can anyone enlighten me what the great man is actually doing here? How would you notate that rhythm he repeats if you were to write it down, and what sticking do you think he's using? Makes my head spin.

If you had a sound clip of this, that would help.

Carter does this a lot, actually.  If it's what I'm thinking of (I don't have the Central Park CD) I think he's just playing a single stroke roll as fast as he can.  I don't think you can 'transcribe' it per se because it's not really in rhythm.  It sounds like it could be 32nd notes but they don't match up.

I think he's just playing a single stroke roll and counting in his head so he'll know when to end it.  He does this live quite a bit.  

Of course, Carter is on a whole 'nuther plane (or is it plain) than your average drummer, so who knows.

It's a sixteenth note-eighth note lick. Really nothing special - simply one of the chops derived from doing your homework, which I'm undoubtedly sure Carter has.

Unfortunately, I have no way of transcribing it, and I'm not sure of any online resources I could refer you to.

My advice is to do the dirty work of drumming. Go get the Syncopation book and a teacher who knows their stuff - there are licks in that that you learn then think, "hey, that sounds like something Beauford would do!" In fact, if I recall correctly, there are lines in that book that are EXACTLY the pattern that Beauford does at the end of that tune (and in so many others).

It's boring and tedious, but I PROMISE you every drummer who's worth his weight in drumsticks knows all that stuff top to bottom, left to right, front and back. Once you do it, you'll thank yourself.

Dang...I got owned by Mr. A. How humbling

After rereading my post, I realized that it sounded pretty condescending of me. I'm really sorry about that. I didn't mean to be a jerk. FWIW, I really don't have the lick down as well as I talked like I do, so Mr. A calling me out was well deserved. I also remember how long and frustrating it was for me to learn it, so I feel even worse. Again, sorry man.

With that said, I've tried to do my best as quickly as i can to provide a more thorough explanation and resource for you. I quickly transcribed this by hand - no fancy work here - please excuse the crude nature. I hope you can at least read it.

This is my first attempt at ever using an image hosting site, or posting a pic on a forum, but here goes:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/ilikedrums/Beaufordscan.jpg

It's a really interesting lick - distinctly polyrhythmic, with a 3 feel when played fast.

Also, if you have the Syncopation book, lines 33 and 34 of lesson Eleven (it's page 27 in my book) are VERY similar to this lick - in fact, it's two-thirds of it, in a matter of speaking.

I really hope this is helpful to you. If you have any further questions I'd be more than happy to offer whatever help I can.

Hey, cheers Bradford.  I didn't think you were being a jerk, but I much preferred your second answer! I'll get my hands on that book and get down to some dirty rudiment training.  

Thanks for laying down the law Mr. A!

I think I know that lick he's playing if I'm thinking of the right part of the solo. He plays four beats that can be counted as triplets, with the first two on the rack tom and the second two on the snare, which are accented. He switches around drums to, for instance he then plays that same pattern with the first two hits on the rack tom the third on the snare and the fourth on the tom again. There are alot of variations but that's the basic concept of what he plays. He also switches playing all four hits on tom then snare, hope this helps.

In drum corps we definitely call these hertas.  All you have to do is play triplets with your hands, put a double on the 1st note of each triplet and alternate the sticking the whole way through.

Move the diddle (or double) anywhere on the triplet.   As long as you alternate your sticking it is considered a herta (if you want to call it that!).  Of course this applies to 16ths as well, or any note value or time signature for that matter.

Put the double on any note and alternate the sticking...and whalla...a nice herta pattern!  It's really cool when you get comfortable playing these starting with your weak hand and you achieve that even feeling...start with that left!

Put doubles on every accent pattern you know and make them hertas.  Voice it around the kit in every possible way you can think of.  Apply every kind of dynamic.  Add some sweet crosses to your patterns. Practice this at slow, medium, fast and even faster tempos!

Move these alternating doubles around the kit in every way you can think of ascending on the toms, descending, playing each double on a different drum in every possible order...crescendo the entire measure, decrescendo the entire measure.  

Lots of sweetness to be had here.

I wrote the Cavaliers Tenor solo in 1996 and we did this...take the simple rhythm of 2 16ths and and an 8th (just reoccurring doubles) using the basic sticking of RLR LRL RLR LRL.

Cross the 2nd note (left hand) of the 3 note pattern over your right hand and then do the opposite for the next 3 note pattern, crossing the 2nd note over your left hand.

This makes a pretty sweet pattern to move around the kit...it's a great visual as well as creating some funky sounding hertas.

Can you tell I had my coffee this morning?  hehe, I just felt like going on a herta rant.  They always were one of my favorite things to mess around with!

May the Force be with you.

Actually, Carter gives mad props to Billy Cobham on his DVD.  Carter uses that same lick all the time in many different contexts.  He's a big fan of Billy's and isn't ashamed to admit it.



Did I just say 'mad props'?

is this the lick where he crashes, throws LRL on the toms and then R on on the snare? in triplet form?

Watched DMB Storytellers on VH1 last night and (surprise) he played 'the lick' during Ants Marching.  Made me think of this thread.  

Wow. What a completely amazing player. I was so in awe I couldn't even find the pattern being talked about in this thread. jeez.
 I have that video set--will have to watch it again.

robyn

Greetings -

Today I stumbled upon the Café and began reading this CB thread.  As I read the bradford â€" Mr. Acrolite â€" bradford exchange on 8-18-2005, I was truly expecting the “Oh Yeah …..” banter/crap I run across all too often in forums.  Let me just say how refreshing it was to see someone display some character by apologizing and getting on with the topic of rendering assistance. I am impressed.  So much so I registered just to say thanks.  I am looking forward to participating in this forum.

            Take care,


                          TRB

Alonsochile's explaination of this very, very inflential fusion "lick" is very good.

Unlike rudimental Hertas as linked on the Vic Firth site - this, I believe, Billy Cobham lick is generally played on the drum set (as Alonsochile points out) in alternating single strokes - RLR L RLR L (or the opposite LH lead).

But everone keeps referring to this as being used as triplets - which of course it can be - but that is only scratching the surface. In group of three notes - 3 triplets, 3 sixteenth's, 3 sixteenth-triplets, the first three notes of a quintuplet can be rephrased this way....

Simple example - in 4/4, first play 16th's putting an accent on the first of every three notes (except the last note in the bar) - in other words - accent 1, the ah of 1, the & of 2, the e of 3 and the downbeat of 4. Play 1/4's on the BD or hat to make the implied syncopation obvious.

Another way of thinking of the above bar, is that you are playing four groups of 3 sixteenths, followed by a group of 4 sixteenths (over a 1/4 note pulse).... Now back to the Cobham/Carter lick - just substitute the "RLR L " pattern for each group of "3 sixteenths" - and leave the pattern of 4 as "R L R L".

See how the accents now all fall on the same hand - making it really easy (and powerful) to move to a different drum with each grouping - in a very syncopated fashion with out getting hung up in the R to L off most syncopated accent patterns.

Of course, we are not limited to this one accent pattern - take the bar above - basically 16th's in 4/4 grouped 3-3-3-3-4 and work out the other combinations/accent patterns

4-3-3-3-3
3-3-4-3-3
3-4-3-3-3

etc, etc.

And of course we're not limited to just 16th's - the track Spectrum from Cobham's first solo album of the same title is full of fills based on the same idea as the above - but the groove is really pretty many of the fills use syncopated groups of 32nd's as their basis.

Also the "lick" doesn't have to just appear in constant streams of notes - rests are still allowed. :-)

again over a bar of 4/4 - play 4 sixteenths, followed by a sixteenth rest, then 4 more sixteenths, followed by another sixteenth rest, followed by 4 more sixteenths, then finishing the bar with two sixteenth rests.

Once comfortable with that - then make each of the groups of four - one Cobham lick followed by an accented note. Another way to think of these are the first three notes/the Cobham lick are a group of 3 and the remaining note and the rest are a group of 2.

Now the last phrase has two rests at the end, so that will also be a group of 3 - follow? (This is so hard in text)

This should give us -

first - 4-1-4-1-4-2
rephrased as 3-2-3-2-3-3
or 5-5-6

See why this became a hugely popular, useful lick for fusion music?  While using single strokes for groups of 4's and 2's and the Cobham lick for groups of 3's - virtually any odd-meter or complex syncopated accented figured can be played and/or embellished in an easy, ALTERNATE sticking, strong hand lead fashion.

Lots and lots of recorded examples of this stuff...

Also there is the whole "a few years later" Steve Gadd "hands and feet" thing that is built right on top of this Cobham lick.

But it's 2AM and I'm supposed to be working - - -

and this has rambled on enough.

Have fun,

David

Lindberg711, whilst you're busy "L-ing YAO" you should read the post before you, which was really informative and certainly didn't make things any more difficult. I think we all established on this thread that the lick itself is fairly simple, but most discussion has been about conceptualising and applying it in different ways - in straight sixteenths and triplets, moving the double around the phrase, and moving groups of triplets (with or without the double/herta idea) around the bar.

It's all well and good you pointing out how easy for it is for you to play 32nds and 16ths, but it's much more interesting to hear guys talk about playing the lick in a fill of sixteenths accented 3-4-3-3-3, while keeping the BD and hi-hat pulsing, and chucking the 32nds in any number of different places.

By comparison, I couldn't be less interested in how fast you can play.

Now *I'm* LMAO. Nice reply, Kev.

Kim Plainfeild's book Advanced Concepts has a great section that deals with this lick using different accent points in 3,4,5,6,7 and doubling moving it around the kit. He then does the same thing with flams.....cool section for those that own the book.