Skill?

Some Drummers perform this way others don't.

I think the real trick is being tolerant of each other.

     

A pro needs to be able to lock in with a click, but also needs to be able to play rock-steady time without one.

The old guys used to record without a click i.e., Santana , and if you listen closely the time varies here and there; like slight sectional tempo changes or gradual speeding up. Its subtle but also its just part of the music.

I played some Celtic stuff the other night and although most of it was steady, in one song the tempo fluctuated like hills and valleys - but it was necessary for the music. If it was on a click, it wouldn't have worked..

So.. you definitely need both techniques (click & non-click). I practice by myself with a click 50% of the time, play with my band without (although I use a metronome to get the count-in meter as I hate counting in at the wrong speed - even if its off by 1 bps). I also record with a click.

I use an el-cheapo Korg MA-30 which has a big LCD display so you can see the graphical 'arm' going back & forth - and its on mute of course(!). As soon as the song is finished I punch in the next tempo and start the next count in.. and yes - I have the tempos listed in big print on a single piece of paper. I keep both the ma-30 and the sheet well concealed so I doubt if anyone even knows what I'm doing.. except for my band mates - and I count in every song;

It works for me, but there are better solutions out there with more expensive metronomes that you can program meters (which works as long as your setlist doesn't change), or a flashing light etc.

I used to use no tempo aids and relied on quickly remebering a key phrase from each song to get the meter.. but when you have to learn a lot of songs fast - its a lot to remember.  If I know the songs inside out I can ususally pull off the right meter without a click aid.

Ah, that would be the tune "Big Fat Money" off of VH's 'Balance'.

lol get off your high horse ranmannete.  click keeps me precise each and every performance.  i'd rather be right on with headphones on than fluctuate +/- 1 bpm without them.  makes for a much more rewarding experience when listening to recordings.

My philosophy -  

Timing is a means to an end, which is to get into the pocket and groove.  If you find that pocket and stay in it, you've got it.  It doesn't matter if it is precise to the nano second, just that it grooves.

There are times when playing to a click is unavoidable.  I was recently in a studio using Pro Tools.  Contrary to popular belief, the engineer wanted everything recorded to a click, because it was easier for her to edit that way.  So, instead of having any timing errors "fixed", I had to nail the time for the sake of the editing, so other mistakes could be easily "fixed".

For some tunes, like the straight ahead rock ones, this worked.  But much of this was world music, and some tunes just didn't work with the click.  We couldn't do it, and stay with the click.  But, once the click was shut off, we nailed these tunes in one or two takes.   Some of the rhythms were not "typical" western rhythms, and I don't think the the programming was designed to accomodate that.  

Bottom line - There are situations where playing to a click is required, and if you get into that kind of situation, get out the metronome and practice with the click.  You're gonna need that practice.

If you're just going to be playing with a band, and all you need is to stay in the pocket, do spend some time at home with the metronome,  just so you'll understand what good timing is.  However, when you get together with your band, leave it behind and just play.  As long as the band is cooking, the timing is plenty good enough.

The thing about practicing with a click (at least part of the time) is that it gives you a reference point and is great for pinpointing where in a song the time fluctuates. I play in a band that has a lot of syncopation (vocals,guitars etc) and if I don't drive the band these guys will drag too much across the bar sometimes. Its also great for figuring out what's not flowing i.e., if a part isin't flowing right try isolating the hands , if that's OK add in the BD part.. the click will point out whats not meshing with the groove really fast.. if you don't practice with a click; you basically have no reference point - its a great sanity check! I agree with Gus - there's absolutely nothing worse than hearing an obvious time fluctuation on a recording - and nothing better when the time is rock solid and grooves..

I think its just a misunderstanding. Things can be taken wrong on a Forum.

On my behalf I apologize to Gus and all others concerned.

Just to clarify - I use the metronome for count-ins as a crutch when learning new songs so that I can pinpoint the optimum tempos (as 20 of our songs are originals). Or if its a cover tune that I'm not familiar with.. but after they are burned into memory I try to avoid using the metronome when playing live.. which leads to another question;

Does anyone have any good techniques for quickly calling up meters to count in songs?

- one that I've used is to write down a key phrase from the song on the set list. I read it and quickly recall how the groove sounds..
although if I know the tune inside out I can usually just call the meter out of thin air.

Here's another question:
- Does anyone have any good methods for counting in the band? I'm not happy with my current technique - as my bandmates want me to count in 2 bars for each song - like '1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4' and I find its too long.. especially if you have to say it as I am sure the audience can pick it up over the PA even if I whisper it..

At my church we use click tracks on almost every song. It not only helps me stay in time, it allows us to use cool loops and effects. It helps a lot. I recommend that everyone try to use it. It also helps build an internal clok so you can stay on time while playing.

 3 to 4 stick clicks of 1/4 notes depending on the whether the tune starts on 4 or 5..at any rate....1 bar

EDIT:  The first rehearsal with my current band I counted in with 2 bars because we were all new to each other....about the third song the head honcho turns and says.."you always count in like that?" I replied I thought it might be easier to start with....that was the end of that.

Personally I think live is one place you certainly don't want to be dependant on a metronome. It doesn't matter if things slip around by a few bpm, it can be useful for enhancing the mood and energy of a song. You don't want to be playing like a robot. Although in most recording situations a click is necessary, especially if you're going to multi track parts

 Hey Rimshot,..I'm stittin' here (you see it's late) programming the "trouble" songs in....And I'm thinkin' ...hardly ANY of these cover tunes will stay exactly on meter for more that 8 to 10 bars...WTF? THis will be a good tool...but I'm not so sure all these people are playing with a click..unless, it's just to start. The only things I've found that will stay on meter are of all things, a Billy Idol tune Dancing with Myself, LZ, The Ocean and just a few others..it's almost like some recordings are in increments of 1/2 BPM...This will work for a count in, but, I'm wondering why, if the recordings I'm listening to are done to a click, why they wander after 8 or 10 bars...unless, they're breaking down tempo to say, 117 and a 1/4 BPMS....I think if you can get close and cop the feel of the song on the intro, then that'll work..I'm not using this for every song. I just hate having to make small tempo adjustments 2 bars or so, into the song, sometimes,(not always) to make it groove mostly on stuff we just introduced into the band. I'm just looking for something consistent for intro's. I'll be trying this tomorrow night at rehearsal for the first time...

The older the song the less likely they used a click. It probably also depends on how 'produced' or overproduced the song is. Like I said, I use it to get my headspace in the ballpark of the right tempo for count-ins.. a word of advice; once the band starts playing don't look at it; if the tempo drifts and you try to adjust it to the click you will drive yourself crazy and the time will fluctuate. Sometimes I do a quick check to see if the tempo is holding but don't try to adjust if its off.
.. I also find the more you know the material inside out, the steadier the tempo is (throughout the band) and the less you need to worry about it. I also find sometimes that learning new songs can throw your time off as you may be trying to come up with original parts/fills and not concentrating as much on the meter..

That is cool - and it has a MIDI clock control which is just what I'm looking for. Plus it has an added benefit - it would drive my dog bananas!