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Author Topic: who plays w/ a click?  (Read 2058 times)
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felix
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2006, 07:51 AM »

My philosophy -  

Timing is a means to an end, which is to get into the pocket and groove.  If you find that pocket and stay in it, you've got it.  It doesn't matter if it is precise to the nano second, just that it grooves.

There are times when playing to a click is unavoidable.  I was recently in a studio using Pro Tools.  Contrary to popular belief, the engineer wanted everything recorded to a click, because it was easier for her to edit that way.  So, instead of having any timing errors "fixed", I had to nail the time for the sake of the editing, so other mistakes could be easily "fixed".

For some tunes, like the straight ahead rock ones, this worked.  But much of this was world music, and some tunes just didn't work with the click.  We couldn't do it, and stay with the click.  But, once the click was shut off, we nailed these tunes in one or two takes.   Some of the rhythms were not "typical" western rhythms, and I don't think the the programming was designed to accomodate that.  

Bottom line - There are situations where playing to a click is required, and if you get into that kind of situation, get out the metronome and practice with the click.  You're gonna need that practice.

If you're just going to be playing with a band, and all you need is to stay in the pocket, do spend some time at home with the metronome,  just so you'll understand what good timing is.  However, when you get together with your band, leave it behind and just play.  As long as the band is cooking, the timing is plenty good enough.

Great post.  The tune has to sit well and groove... end of story.  How we get there is different for all of us.  If you always play from a "grooving" stand point where every note "grooves" and does not have a bit of ego you will be AMAZED at a couple of things:

-How good everything SOUNDS.  Mixing is so much easier.

-How simple patterns can sound very complicated.

I used to and still have to force myself to play very simple.  Once in awhile I have to play a complicated fill or groove/pattern and I kinda dread it anymore (just where I am at right now).  But if it really really belongs there and comes from a "pure" place- well, it's why I drum. Cool
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moxman
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2006, 04:17 PM »

Just to clarify - I use the metronome for count-ins as a crutch when learning new songs so that I can pinpoint the optimum tempos (as 20 of our songs are originals). Or if its a cover tune that I'm not familiar with.. but after they are burned into memory I try to avoid using the metronome when playing live.. which leads to another question;

Does anyone have any good techniques for quickly calling up meters to count in songs?

- one that I've used is to write down a key phrase from the song on the set list. I read it and quickly recall how the groove sounds..
although if I know the tune inside out I can usually just call the meter out of thin air.

Here's another question:
- Does anyone have any good methods for counting in the band? I'm not happy with my current technique - as my bandmates want me to count in 2 bars for each song - like '1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4' and I find its too long.. especially if you have to say it as I am sure the audience can pick it up over the PA even if I whisper it..
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diddle
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2006, 05:28 PM »

Does anyone have any good techniques for quickly calling up meters to count in songs?

My benchmark is 120bpm.  That's the speed we marched in high school and playing drum cadances at that tempo has been burn into memory.  So I reference my tempos from that point, and that works well for me.

Does anyone have any good methods for counting in the band? I'm not happy with my current technique - as my bandmates want me to count in 2 bars for each song - like '1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4' and I find its too long.. especially if you have to say it as I am sure the audience can pick it up over the PA even if I whisper it..

Most of the time I like 4 (or 3 depending upon the time signature) stick clicks
to kick off a song.

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chrisdrummer
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2006, 09:14 PM »

At my church we use click tracks on almost every song. It not only helps me stay in time, it allows us to use cool loops and effects. It helps a lot. I recommend that everyone try to use it. It also helps build an internal clok so you can stay on time while playing.
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moxman
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2006, 04:25 PM »

Ya - I think I'm going to go back to stick clicks - and no more than 4. I find a 2 bar count-in seems to take an eternity; especially when the vocalist introduces the song turns around to me and we all have to wait for a big long count in.. I think I'll tell the bass player to learn to work with 1 bar as he is the one that wants 2.. it sucks!! I feel like I'm in junior band! The weird thing is he is a fantastic bass player with years of pro experience.. probably has more to do with unfamiliarity with the material and not wanting to get caught off guard.
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DWdrmr
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2006, 05:36 PM »

 3 to 4 stick clicks of 1/4 notes depending on the whether the tune starts on 4 or 5..at any rate....1 bar

EDIT:  The first rehearsal with my current band I counted in with 2 bars because we were all new to each other....about the third song the head honcho turns and says.."you always count in like that?" I replied I thought it might be easier to start with....that was the end of that.
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DWdrmr
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2006, 05:45 PM »

Rimshot, I went with the Tama RW105, rhythm watch. It'll hold 30 songs...more than I need. I just want it for the "trouble spot" songs.
Thanks again for the tip.
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DrumerFromSysinoid
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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2006, 07:53 PM »

Personally I think live is one place you certainly don't want to be dependant on a metronome. It doesn't matter if things slip around by a few bpm, it can be useful for enhancing the mood and energy of a song. You don't want to be playing like a robot. Although in most recording situations a click is necessary, especially if you're going to multi track parts
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moxman
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2006, 08:11 PM »

I checked out the Tama RW105 and its very good. The LEDs make it much easier to see the click in low light situations. My ideal metronome (which doesn't exist) has a lights, programmable meters, and also a numeric keypad for punching in the numbers if necessary; it would also have MIDI output so you can synch it with   effects boxes..

But as been posted I suppose the best metronome is the one you don't need - your internal clock. I had a high school band conductor ( who came from the military) and he had the equivalent of perfect pitch - but for meter. He could randomly call up any meter out of his head and pretty much nail it.. so maybe there is some technique for 'remembering' exact meters - or maybe the guy was just a freak!
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DWdrmr
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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2006, 11:54 PM »

 Hey Rimshot,..I'm stittin' here (you see it's late) programming the "trouble" songs in....And I'm thinkin' ...hardly ANY of these cover tunes will stay exactly on meter for more that 8 to 10 bars...WTF? THis will be a good tool...but I'm not so sure all these people are playing with a click..unless, it's just to start. The only things I've found that will stay on meter are of all things, a Billy Idol tune Dancing with Myself, LZ, The Ocean and just a few others..it's almost like some recordings are in increments of 1/2 BPM...This will work for a count in, but, I'm wondering why, if the recordings I'm listening to are done to a click, why they wander after 8 or 10 bars...unless, they're breaking down tempo to say, 117 and a 1/4 BPMS....I think if you can get close and cop the feel of the song on the intro, then that'll work..I'm not using this for every song. I just hate having to make small tempo adjustments 2 bars or so, into the song, sometimes,(not always) to make it groove mostly on stuff we just introduced into the band. I'm just looking for something consistent for intro's. I'll be trying this tomorrow night at rehearsal for the first time...
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DWdrmr
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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2006, 11:57 PM »

BTW, Gus....thanks for the post Smiley I learned something here.
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moxman
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« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2006, 08:50 AM »

The older the song the less likely they used a click. It probably also depends on how 'produced' or overproduced the song is. Like I said, I use it to get my headspace in the ballpark of the right tempo for count-ins.. a word of advice; once the band starts playing don't look at it; if the tempo drifts and you try to adjust it to the click you will drive yourself crazy and the time will fluctuate. Sometimes I do a quick check to see if the tempo is holding but don't try to adjust if its off.
.. I also find the more you know the material inside out, the steadier the tempo is (throughout the band) and the less you need to worry about it. I also find sometimes that learning new songs can throw your time off as you may be trying to come up with original parts/fills and not concentrating as much on the meter..
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Rick
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2006, 01:04 PM »

This laser metronome looks pretty cool. It's reasonably priced as well.

http://www.lasermetronome.com/
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moxman
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2006, 04:20 PM »

That is cool - and it has a MIDI clock control which is just what I'm looking for. Plus it has an added benefit - it would drive my dog bananas!
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TheBeachBoy
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2006, 06:45 PM »

To me, the metronome is just a tool.  Sometimes for practice, sometimes for recording (most of the time, really).  I use it to build my internal clock so I'm not dependant, yet still able to play to it if necessary.  Just like not every song requires every drum/cymbal I own, I don't need to use a click for every song.  In fact, for live shows, I have never used one.  Don't need it.  Not trying to be chauvanistic, but I feel that a click would inhibit my band.  We play together, without too much variation in each song's tempo, but always together.  We can get that groove without the click.  I suppose if we were to add sequences, we would, but that issue hasn't come up yet.  In the studio, we use a click, just because it makes editing much easier, especially if adding MIDI or other effects.
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SteveR
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2006, 10:20 PM »

I play with a click.  Ironically, I find the more I play with a click, the less I need the click.  After a while, you don't 'hear' it anymore, you just 'feel' it.  I think (hope) that means my internal clock is improving.

A big misconception about playing with a click is that you can't push and/or pull the tempo as needed.  This just isn't so.  Even with a click, you can still play on the front side or the back side of the beat, depending on what the song calls for.    I try to do this to keep things from sounding too robotic.

Use it as a guide.
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lilblakdak
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2006, 03:18 AM »



Here's another question:
- Does anyone have any good methods for counting in the band? I'm not happy with my current technique - as my bandmates want me to count in 2 bars for each song - like '1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4' and I find its too long.. especially if you have to say it as I am sure the audience can pick it up over the PA even if I whisper it..
Try to get your band polishd enough that you can use other cues to start the song other than the stick click or the count. Nothing looks more amatuerish than having someone count in every song (reminds me of band in school). You should all know the timing and tempo of your songs, and when the singer says a certain word during his banter BANG! you go right into the song. Looks and sounds much more polished.
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TamaDrummer
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2006, 10:28 AM »

I never started with a click, and I know that the tempos in songs with my first band fluctuated quite a bit.  Now I play with a metronome as well as without.  I don't want to become dependant on one.  I have always been able to keep the tempo fairly consistant, and changing time sigs isn't all that hard for me to do within a given tempo.  I am playing more and more with a click to help develope my extended solidity (keeping the tempo consistant over longer periods of time).
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moxman
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2006, 11:00 AM »

when the singer says a certain word during his banter BANG! you go right into the song. Looks and sounds much more polished.

Interesting technique .. can't see it working consistently in my band as we only practice once a week for like 2 1/2 hours. Its hard enough to just remembering what tunes we're playing; although we manage to pull it off.. after playing this way for about 6 months we're getting regular gigs and recently won the local battle of the bands contest (we rock! Cheesy).  

Maybe if all band members had some sort of electro-shock device attached to the back of the head.
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jameswalker
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2006, 11:40 AM »

- Does anyone have any good methods for counting in the band? I'm not happy with my current technique - as my bandmates want me to count in 2 bars for each song - like '1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4' and I find its too long.. especially if you have to say it as I am sure the audience can pick it up over the PA even if I whisper it..

Stick clicks should do it.  What turns me off about the "1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4" countoff is 1) how long it takes, 2) the fact that once you say "One...", everyone in the building knows that you're going to continue on with "...two...one, two, three, four" - predicatbility to the point of tediousness; and 3) the implication that nobody else in the band is capable of counting to four.

The occasional verbal count-in can work, IMHO.  A lot of it is in the delivery as well.  People don't seem to mind when someone like Sting or Bruce Springsteen (I'm showing my age here) steps up to the mic' and shouts, "ONE!!!  TWO!!!  THREE!!!  FOUR!!!!" to count the band in.  If you blandly count "one....two....one, two, three, four" like, say, Jamey Aebersold (on his myriad jazz improv' playalong albums), then the audience - and more importantly, the band - might fall asleep before the first note is played.

Also, consider working up introductions to some songs, that are played by one member of the band.  It could be a certain drum fill, or a certain drum beat, or something played by the rhythm guitar(-ist), etc.  No count-in involved, but the tempo is still set, and the band knows exactly when to come in.

Personally, I think it's best if things can be varied a bit during the course of a set.  Any count-in method can get tedious, if every song is counted off in the very same manner.  

And FWIW, to me the killer isn't the count-in, it's the bands who spend ten seconds looking at each other, making sure that they're all ready to play, before somebody counts the band in.  Dead air can be deadly to the momentum of a show.

As always, YMMV.
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