DRUMMER CAFE

aw, crap, guys. we can all agree to disagree then. but i still feel yous are arguing a point that, well, just doesn't help someone who may want to really grow as a musician to move forward.

i just deleted everything else i wanted to say, coz it will come out sounding wrong, wrong, wrong.

all i know is, if i was playing guitar in chick corea's band and he said he wanted us all to play in A, i'd want to know what my musical options were. i'm not gonna wait for a happy accident in that situation.

but whaddo i know, right? i'm still trying to figure out how to listen to tain watts.

Rule is a four letter word in my book.
To be a little more serious, I can see the argument from both sides. Educating yourself is like arming yourself. There will be many situations (like the one you describe) where people will try to bring you down. With musical knowledge you will be able to argue your case.
Rules are there to be broken.
In that sense, I think it's easier to break rules that haven't been ingrained into your very being. I still find myself cringeing at some of the basic mistakes that some of my music colleagues make, only to find their instincts were right and my conservative (music school) attitudes would have resulted in a bland piece of work.
In short, the most interesting and exhillerating work I've taken part in has always been with un-schooled musicians. The most boring, with mates from music school.

That has been my experience as well.

IMHO, music theory is one way to study, codify, and comprehend music that already exists - or certain aspects of it, at least.  However, I haven't found it to be a particularly good starting point for creating music.

I like this philosophy.

Keep writing your music and learning as you go along.  I'm finding out it really is more about the journey than the destination.
JMHO

Which is EXACTLY what it is.  It's not rules for the future...it's simply how things were done in the past.  It's nothing more than a stepping stone.  A viable resource for those dabbling in the in the art.  How can you know what you want to create, without knowing what you're creating it from?

Plus, it's just plain fun.  For me, anyways.  I love the stuff.  Reasons why things sound good together.  Reasons why a particular artist used a particular motion to create a scene or idea.  It's simply fascinating.  As a musician, how could you NOT want to know this stuff?

Well you got that right it about being hard. I did take a theory course in college. And I found it really, really hard. Math Hard. And I'm not a Math person. Also it seemed like a huge amount of memorization. Also not a strong point. I have no ideas about it stifling creativity, its just that it makes my head spin. Sure you can call me lazy, but it sure is hard for me to get motivated about it, and my college days are long past.

One issue though, when I was growing up in school band, there was very little focus on melodics for percussionists. In elementary school they kind of introduced it, but never really followed up on it and if you chose not to participate that was okay. In Jr. High the only people who played them were the ones who applied themselves in elementary school. There was no instruction for anyone who didn't already know. In High School the drum set guys held in great disdain anyone the deemed to be "band-f*gs" and even treated the melodic percussion guys as outsiders. When I grew up it was really uncool for drummers to cross the line into anything "musical". I'm not making excuses, just relating my experience. So learning my theory as an adult has been a real uphill battle. I really wish I had applied myself more when I had the resources available to me.

However spending my life as a kit player in numerous bands, has given me a unique approach to learning guitar and song writing and arranging. I'm not saying I couldn't benefit from theory, just that my approach is fun and unique for me. And it pisses off the guys who have "paid their dues". And that's fun too.

Right.  But wait, the Chinese alone outnumber the US by a margin of 10 to 1.  So, there are 2.8 biliion Chinese people who listen to Chinese music while only 280 million people in the US total, not all who listen to pop music.  And that's not taking into consideration the other Pacific Rim countries that have millions of people.  

Of course, we haven't even scratched the Dark Continent.  There are millions who live in Africa that have no understanding or care in the world for the  Western theory of music either.  In fact, outside of Europe and North/South America, the backbeat, 4/4 pop style of music is nearly nonexistent.

Does this invalidate the concept of Western music?

I think what we see here a lot is "In most cases". Some people will come along (very very few) that will sound better than people with lots of Music Theory.

The next great might wander upon this forum. I think we all should remember that we are refering to 99,000,000 out of 100,000,000 when we suggest Music Theory.

There are some drummers that never had a lesson, maybe didn't need one, couldn't afford, whatever.
What makes you think the next great doesn't have Internet access?

Hence in most cases.

Plus, American popular music draws from a wide variety of traditions and sources from around the world, not just "standard" Western music theory, in terms of its harmonic concepts.  

- Blues scales and "blue notes" don't come from Western theory - as I understand my musicology, they come from an attempt to re-create notes and scales in certain African musical traditions - notes thath are "in-between the cracks" of the 12-tone Western (European) common practices.  You hear them all the time in pop music, however.  Which "rules" ("conventions," "standard practices," etc.) are we to follow in this case?  African?  European?

- More on the blues:  in "classical" music theory, moving from a V chord to a IV chord is frowned upon, big-time.  In the blues, it's a staple of many chord progressions.  Again, which specific set of "rules" are we to follow in this case?  According to the rules and practices of "classical" theory, that's an incorrect chord progression - but it sounds great.  If I have to choose, I'm going with what sounds great, and not with what someone writes on a blackboard in a classroom.

Studying music theory - and even more specifically, the "theories" (concepts, practices, etc.) of many different cultures and musical genres - is a great way to learn what has gone before, and a great way to inform one's own concepts of music.  Bottom line?  I do recommend the study of music theory.  However, too much obedience to any one particular way of organizing music can be stifling to one's own creativity.  When I hear musicians talking about what's a "correct" chord progression, resolution, note choice, etc., well...let's just say that it's possible to follow all of the rules that are commonly taught in music theory classes, and still come up with decidedly unmusical results.  Following any previously-established practices, in no way guarantees musical results.  Music theory isn't the be-all-and-end-all of music.

IMHO, of course.