felix
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« on: November 05, 2002, 06:40 AM » |
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Hey guys..I'm thinking of using a couple of cheapo Shure BG4.0's for overheads this weekend (per the soundman's request). I've heard alot of negative things about live overheads, but I've seen lots of bands do it and they sounded great. But if heard bands without overheads and they sounded great...and I could also say I have heard the contrary.
Also do you guys like to gate and compress live? I played in a very loud band about 6 years ago on this same circuit and I "had/was told to" to gate the mics but I didn't like it. Plus this sound man is kinda gear cuckoo and want to actually put compression on the main buss. Since I have a studio everyone expects me to be an expert on everything, but quite frankly I hate compression and find most people don't use it sparingly.
Any tips about any of this would be great.
PS...our stage volume isn't too loud. But it's still a rock gig.
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BAnimalG
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2002, 07:58 AM » |
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It really depends on how much your cymbals project. If the guy is at least a semi-professional sound man and he is requesting overheads, it must be a good size venue you are playing. I've never gated or compressed the overheads live, at least I didn't know it if I did.  I would think you would just want to go with the natural sound of the cymbals. but what do I know, I'm just the friggin' drummer.  |
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Louis
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2002, 11:09 AM » |
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I may be old and too grouchy but I refuse to use gates, live or studio. I hate gates, I am always wondering where did my ghost notes go? The one exception is if I am getting BIG BUCKS and thats the only way to keep the gig. For studio work I want all the inserts pulled. No stinking gates, no compression, no nothing, just me and my drums. What the producer does after the session I seldom have no controll over, but at least I did it my way. My situation is a lot different than most. I am old and retired, I don't need the work, Don't need their money, and don't need their bull, I am doing this for fun and self satisfaction. Being old is great by the way, you can get by with a lot of stuff.
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2002, 11:34 AM » |
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Live sound is funny - many sound men I've worked with are ironically not the most musical guys I've met, instead being attracted to the techie side of sound mixing (along with the free drinks and occasional groupie cast-offs they'll encounter). It's like those gearhead guys in high school who were always souping up their cars - it sure didn't mean they were good drivers!
Anyway, I try to evaluate the skills of each new sound man I encounter, and work WITH him to get the best results I can. With a skilled, open-minded guy, this is a treat. But with an I've always done it THIS way guy, you may have to do some compromising. I run into this attitude most often with sound men who are not very skilled.
For example, I worked with a guy who was the house sound man for a major Florida club. His solution for EVERY bass drum was to use the mic signal to trigger his own D4 unit, which had a bass drum sample he liked. I immediately told him to turn that triggered sound off, and just use MY sound. It quickly became apparent that he knew NOTHING of how to get a good bass drum sound, and that I would end up sounding worse than other drummers on the same bill, so I gave in and let him do it his way.
Some guys ONLY know how to control a kit by using gates. When I find out a guy is gating me, I immediately stop him and make him check each drum individually, playing over the whole dynamic range from very loud to very soft. I can usually hear where the gate kicks in, cutting off my softer notes. I make him open the gate wider, until even my ghosts notes are audible, so that the only sound the gate will cut off is the drum vibrating in sympathy with other drums. Then they're happy and I'm happy, whereas if I just said "don't use gates" the guy will decide I'm a jerk, and will make NO effort to make me sound good. Not a good situation to be in!
Felix, I think overheads could only help, so I'd say go for it. As far as gating, if you gather that it's the only way the sound guy can manage to get a good sound, go along with it, but make sure he isn't cancelling your softer notes.
Bottom line - you may be dealing with sound men of limited skills, so work WITH them to get the best sound they're capable of. Good luck!
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sidereal
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2002, 01:29 PM » |
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Count me in as a dude who loves judicious use of compression. Used well, it's just a beautiful thing (unless it's a jazz gig).
Gates are weird. In the studio, they're pointless, in my opinion (let the KIT be the KIT). But they're often useful for keeping out unwanted signals when playing live. I'm a firm believer in gates being used on toms and kick for all music outside of jazz. Definitely not on snare for the reasons previously mentioned by others. OHs? That's a tough one. If you're doing subtle texturing on the cymbals, you'll have to play with the settings or go without. If you're just crashing away on cymbals and the kit as a whole, go for it.
The snare's the big thing. keep the gates off the snare. If you gate the OHs you'll still get the kit sound in there for 95% of the stuff you're playing and any subtleties on the snare will be picked up through the snare mic because there's no gate on it.
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felix
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2002, 01:46 PM » |
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I'm not playing anything subtle...anything ghosted is just that...Casper, the friendly ghost...seen and not heard.
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Thrak
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2002, 08:02 PM » |
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I've been doing FOH engineering work at a couple of clubs for about 2 years now. The styles vary from Jazz to Punk/metal. I've adapted a few different styles for the different situations. For a Jazz drummer (depending on stage volume) I'll use a couple of nice overheads, and Shure B-52, and that's it. You can get plenty of the drums from the overheads, and all the textures. For a blues band, I'll mic everything, and then gate the toms and possibly the kick (depends on the resonant head). Snare drum is wide open so you can get the nice hi-hat sound through it. I find that i am mostly gating due to poorly tuned drums. Usually if they are tuned nicely, tom leakage doesn't sound muddy to me. Only when it's dissonant. In this situation, an overhead(s) is usually not needed. For a really loud band, I'll gate the whole @$%# set, including snare and overheads. I don't like to do this, but I like to have a good FOH sound, and that seems to me to be the only way to get those drum attacks to stick out in the mix, and to compete with the "wall of guitar" sound. Blech. My two cents Thrak |
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cavanman
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2002, 05:05 PM » |
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Some guys ONLY know how to control a kit by using gates. When I find out a guy is gating me, I immediately stop him and make him check each drum individually, playing over the whole dynamic range from very loud to very soft. I can usually hear where the gate kicks in, cutting off my softer notes. I make him open the gate wider, until even my ghosts notes are audible, so that the only sound the gate will cut off is the drum vibrating in sympathy with other drums. Then they're happy and I'm happy, whereas if I just said "don't use gates" the guy will decide I'm a jerk, and will make NO effort to make me sound good. Not a good situation to be in!
Man I love this idea. In fact I love any idea that starts moving sound guys toward areas that are more musical without them knowing it.  My problem is I rarely play any venue where if they are using gates, they have enough monitor mixes to send me what the drums are sounding like. So therefore - impossible to say, "OK a little more ...ooop.. no back it off a bit..." etc. It's more about can I hear the guys I need to here to make music or - just know where the band is. Mr. A. - are you able to hear the gated house mix from where you sit when this is happening? |
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marker
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2002, 05:09 PM » |
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I'm no expert by any means, but I've found overheads do a fine job of adding a lot of prescence to your kit in a live situation. The nice thing is, they get the natural sound of the kit, so when mixing you don't just have the close mikes to play with. Combining the close mikes and overheads can give you a lot of control over the drum sound. I've found even a vocal mike, used by me, made my kit sound better. I'd say, it couldn't hurt. If there's a problem, you can just shut them off. Go for it, and be glad your soundman cares about your drum sound.
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2002, 07:55 PM » |
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My problem is I rarely play any venue where if they are using gates, they have enough monitor mixes to send me what the drums are sounding like. So therefore - impossible to say, "OK a little more ...ooop.. no back it off a bit..." etc.
It's more about can I hear the guys I need to here to make music or - just know where the band is.
Mr. A. - are you able to hear the gated house mix from where you sit when this is happening?
Yes, when we're soundchecking just my drums, and nobody else is playing, that's when I listen for them gating me. Typically drums are the first thing the sound man will check, so I seize the opportunity. I can't hear it when the whole band is playing. As far as monitors, I rarely add any drums to my monitor, unless I'm really having a problem hearing myself. Instead, I usually just have the band leader's vocal and the instrument the bandleader plays, if any. Sound men are always amazed when I ask them to take my drums out of the monitor, but I don't need to be killed by my own playing. I hit hard, and can usually hear myself. Only rarely will I need maybe a little bass drum in the mix. In most situations I'm at the rear and center of the stage, so I usually get a good mix of the other instruments just from my central location. |
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