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Author Topic: Cymbal Height for Recording  (Read 452 times)
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cavanman
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« on: November 12, 2002, 11:01 AM »

Yes I know that Bart had another topic almost the same but I wanted those who have already chimed in to revisit this topic with a slightly different slant (is that a pun??)

This is mostly for guys who spend time in recording studios. I can't remember where I saw it but I distinctly remember reading about the optimum approach for recording drums in regard to how hard a player hits his cymbals in relation to his toms. Along with that is the somewhat separate idea of raising cymbals higher to get more separation in miking.

This kind of makes sense in that you have nice overhead mikes and nice tom mikes - but they are rarely if ever the same models. Also there's that thing called EQ (no small topic in recording). If I want shimmery highs from my cymbals but deep warm tom sounds, the mikes will have distinctly separate duties.

Both of these approaches if attended to, will result in altering a player's natural or at least more common approach to playing if it isn't already the normal setup and approach they use all the time. Possibly just another consideration of playing in the studio verses live.

Now from what I understand, in cases of recording big name bands, especially young rock bands like Blink 182, Green Day, Nickleback, Jimmy Eat World (insert your fav band name here, OK?) the engineer just has to work with the guys and let them bash as they will. They may bring in a drum tech but that's usually a drum tuning or drum choice issue. The drummer is still going to duplicate what he does live and the engineer has to work his magic (sometimes serious magic) to record good drum sounds.

But for hired session guns that work with bands and artists (Curt Bisquera, Jim Keltner, Josh Freese, Kenny Aaronoff, etc.) they come in with a rep for providing the optimum recording environment. Balancing the kit is I'm sure built in to their technique - but I wonder how do they make an engineer/producer's job easier - at least in this one techincal area.

I know there are many spinoff topics in regard to how to record drums, function in sessions, etc. but I primarily wanted to hear if anybody has thought about this and altered their approach.

Thoughts from recording Beat Physicians?
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2002, 11:38 AM »

I definitely alter my approach in the studio. I already play my cymbals high, partially for show-biz purposes, but I keep them as high or higher in the studio, too. Every engineer I've worked with has commented on that, and has been VERY happy to see the way I set up.

In addition to providing better separation, the engineer is not stuck with trying to fit a mic into some tiny gap between the edges of my cymbals and the top heads of my rack toms. Particularly when using larger mics like some Sennheisers, this is an issue. If I know I'm not going to play ride cymbal on a song, I take the cymbal off the stand, or take away the whole stand. Less sympathetic vibrations, and a less-obstructed area to mic.

Live, my setup is built for ease of shlepping, durability, and dependability. The less stands, the better. But in the studio, sound is all that matters. I don't care how the kit looks, just how it sounds. Whenever possible, every cymbal, drum, or accessory is on its own stand - there's no jungle-gym of multiclamps. This prevents any unwanted rattling, sympathetic vibration, etc.  I do sometimes mount the rack tom(s) on the bass drum, but have had no real problems with that. But I definitely don't have any drums and cymbals sharing a stand. All my stands that I record with are carefully maintained, to avoid any rattles or buzzes. I've actually just ordered a whole new set of stands, which I'm looking forward to taking into the studio this weekend if they show up on time.

I play hard in the studio, which engineers usually prefer. The sound of a drum getting hit hard is A) more exciting, and B) easier to record. I do not differentiate between how hard I hit the drums and how hard I hit the cymbals. I try to play the kit as one balanced instrument.

When I record, I do not change dynamics as much within a song as I do when performing live. If you analyze them, you'll find that most pop records maintain a fairly consistent volume at all times, so to add or subtract intensity from a track, I change the sounds I use, by doing things like opening the hihat, riding the bell of the ride, riding on a crash, etc. But I'm usually hitting the kick and snare at the same volume throughout the song, unless there is a particular part where an actual crescendo or decrescendo is required. For my toms, I usually just hit as hard as I can, because they record much clearer when hit hard, and can get lost if you try much subtle stuff.

I use more sensitive heads in the studio, using all single-ply coated, top and bottom (Aquarian). Live I use heavier heads, because I don't like to change heads often.

Hope this is helpful!


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felix
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2002, 11:42 AM »

My limited experience says the overheads should be of good quality.  Switching to large diaphragm condensers helped my overhead sound quite a bit.

I never ask drummers to adjust their cymbal height and I would sure as heck not ask Kenny Arnoff to adjust his.  I mean if I had a problem in placing the mic, then I would ask.  But I would just ask.

The biggest factor to me is the balance between the overhead levels and the tom mic levels.  Too much much room makes the toms sound more distant.  So I just try to balance the two entities of overhead vs. close mic and go from there.  Every studio will have it's own sound so what works in one might not work as well in another YMMV.  Very few of us get the luxury to find out what works the best in all studios...can you imagine being a 1st call studio cat and going into all those multi million dollar facilities and cutting tracks every day?  With the advent of sampling and technology in general plus the decline in cd sales- I'd say those kind of guys will get fewer and farther between...I don't know, just hypothesizing.  Anyways, if the engineer is any good and you are any good, there really shouldn't be a problem getting some decent tones.

I would just say give the engineer a little room for mic placement but don't hang your cymbals so high you have to jump to hit them.  Firm, measured, maybe even borderline hard playing works well I have found although some program material can take soft playing.  Recording is tough...recording well is even harder.
There are so many variables.  Getting the tracks to groove and really sit nicely (I'm sure you know this) will go a long way in getting the sound to happen.
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felix
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2002, 11:47 AM »

Unfortunately I never get drummers like Mr. A in the studio.
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cavanman
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2002, 12:02 PM »

Good stuff Felix and Mr. A

Appreciate your input.
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