You're right I agree. I oversimplified my reply for sure partly out of wanting to give the guy a bit of magical info on sounding good(for many situations).  I was thinking more in terms of what someone new to playing jazz(I was thinking in very general terms but granted he did ask about bebop) could concentrate on to fast-track them to sound like they're swinging or making a slow samba or bossa sound good. I guess I was trying to get to the root of what could make something swing at a medium tempo(not specfically in relation to Bop).

I was expressing an opinion re:bossas I guess based on what I see and hear a lot of players doing w/Jobim tunes that I feel were written to be played with a relaxed feel. I am aware that Jobim sings in front of the beat too at times. I guess nothing can be  called "wrong" as far as interpreting songs but I guess I was trying to get to the heart of trying to describe the most basic fundamental difference between playing jazz/bossas and even 8ths playing for ex.

My thinking was, I assumed he can already play on the beat and also thought that if you're gonna teach a guy something "big" it'd be to teach him to swing to a medium tempo swing tune behind the beat. I guess that I hear so many players playing dead on the beat when inappropriate(can we agree that sometimes things don't feel right) while playing bop or swing that it's the first thing I wanna tell em about. 


To be completely fair, these are advanced concepts too,

 "Become conversant in the structure of the song and the feel the soloist imparts. When you are comfortable with knowing the song you will feel a lot more capable of adding your own voice to the ensemble. "

Wouldn't you agree that if it's difficult for a person to grasp playing behind the beat,that he/she  may be just as unlikely to fully understand the intricacies of song structure and arranging.

Peace.

No, I don't think it is, either. In fact, I started an earlier version of that post by saying something much like what you said.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that genre-isation is necessarily a bad thing, just that it's part and parcel of the music becoming part of the academy, sometimes developing rigid lines where none were intended originally. I hear a lot of young guys coming out of certain music schools who can play "Bebop" all day long, but they're mimicking a genre, not playing bop, if that makes any sense. Maybe we could call it "Wynton-ing"?

I don't think the guys who played "bop" or "hard bop" thought consciously about creating a new genre - rather they were trying to push the limits of the sound they played - adding, subtracting, multiplying... The differences between French and German are myriad. The don't translate easily, in fact. The relationship between bebop and hard bop (say) could be considered one of a continuum - a continuum pushed forward by innovation, restoration, etc. But even then, the line wasn't straight nor clear so that a person might know which side of the divide he was standing on.

In all fairness to Mr. Marsalis, he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Some of his recent arrangements on standards - Autumn Leaves, for instance - are stunning. But for a while there, there was a whole lot of "Young Lions" who were falling into the mimicking trap to sell records, IMO. Not that selling some records and making some bread isn't laudable, heck I play on ships: the ultimate form of musical prostitution.

Anyway, most of them have thankfully moved onto more creative things and are finding their own voices. But, working on ships I run into a lot of young players coming out of music schools who seem to a) not be prepared for actual professional work having focussed too heavily on the theoretical and "creative" aspects of music and/or b) can mimic "bop" like crazy, but nothing else because they haven't looked outside those confines.

Maybe I'm just getting old and salty...

It has it's upside: travel, decent pay, and playing drums as my only occupation. There is a downside, though, not the least of which is 22 year-old Bop Nazis who don't know how to play a Cha-Cha or think that taking 27 choruses on Tenderly while people are waltzing is "hip".

"No, I don't think a bass solo would be cool now..." 

Anyway, this is soooooooo off topic.

i think wm is super-talented. i'd mentioned the solo he took on one of tain's cds a few year's back. it was brilliant, and not always what you hear from him. my only gripe is the 'jazz pigeonholing' thing he was doing [in terms of trying to define the genre to the public at large]. but you can't question he is talented, well-informed and dedicates himself to trying to educate [even though i still think he pigeonholes]. but your words made me laugh coz i've seen that approach first-hand and it is a funny mindset amongst some musicians.

not that i could do any better, mind you!

Regarding what the original musicians would have thought of classifications: My dad is a jazz historian, and he says there isn't a great musician in western music history who didn't try to avoid classifications. But they are an unavoidable product of the study of history. According to him If you can't be classified you can't and won't be studied in the distant future. I mean when people go to college and attend music school, they don't take classes in Unclassified Whatever 101. I agree it's too bad we have to harp on classifications, but what's the alternative?

Boomka you make a lot of good points about Marsalis. We discussed Marsalis a lot in the Drummerworld jazz thread. Again my father and grandfather have both shared some peripheral performance associations with the family, and all agree that the dad Ellis is the real talent of that family.

I think jazz greatness is judged close to 100% on innovation. Let's be brutally honest here. Wynton Marsalis is a great player of the trumpet, but I would bet that he has played few if any original phrases in his life. If anyone can show me just one I would love to hear it, because in every recording I have ever heard of him, you can absolutely point out the large note for note Freddie Hubbard solo, the Louis Armstrong, and especially his total ripoff of Miles Davis on the ballads. Yeah, alot of that playing is cool, but because it is entirely borrowed, it is undeserving of being called great, and is at least the equal of anything you can hear from fine trumpet players in Minneapolis, Denver or Raleigh. This goes double for his Pulitzer Prize composition Blood on the Fields, which might as well be called Duke Ellington Suites Greatest Hits.

A lot of musicians in jazz call him the greatest mockingbird who ever lived, and I think this is true. And I think this is why the hardcore jazz people don't like him. It's not all that they're jealous of his fame and popularity like some like to say. I really don't think the serious jazz musicians care all that much if they're famous or not. But if you're not original, you get tuned out.

If it comes out if his horn, its his music, with his touch.  So, I really don't care if every note he plays is original to him or not; or whether he choses to reference other players who have influenced him.  Couldn't care less.  I know that I enjoy his work. 

Yup.  That's what makes the forum such an interesting, informative, and entertaining place.

1. Let's keep this civil.

2. Let's acknowledge that we are dealing with OPINION. It is your OPINION that Marsalis stole everything he ever did. This is NOT a publicly acnowledged fact, yet you're speaking as if it is. (It is also an opinion clearly not shared by Art Blakey, who hired the young unknown Marsalis as his trumpet player many years ago - I still remember the effect his playing had on the jazz audiences of the day, myself included, who marveled at the mastery of this incredibly young but gifted performer.)

Frankly I am not a Marsalis fan, mostly because of his personality. But to deride his playing as completely unoriginal with such blanket proclamations is not compelling, and rather confrontational. Most well educated jazz musicians I've met - and I've met and worked with MANY - do not share your opinion.

Dave made a polite remark, which I think you're reading a lot into. But so far, your own posts have been far more incendiary.

Proceed with caution.

After reading through most of this thread, I feel like a 3rd grader in an advanced Calculus class.