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Author Topic: Is this just normal fatigue, or is something else going on?  (Read 1098 times)
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choolan
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« on: January 12, 2007, 01:39 AM »

I've been on a pretty regular regiment recently in order to increase my double bass control, stamina, and speed. I have been playing every day (or close to it), and I'll just set my metronome at whatever speed is comfortable, and play 16th note singles for a set amount of minutes until my legs got tired. I would then rest, and start again. I started at 115 bpm, and would keep increasing as I felt more and more comfortable with each speed. Yesterday, I was practicing at between 135 and 140 bpm for awhile (probably about an hour), and I began to get a sensation in my legs (namely my right ankle) that I would get when I'd finish a long practice with my band. It was now as if I had no more control over my ankle. I would go to play a normal single stroke roll with my right leg, but instead of having control over the leg, it would just go to play as fast as it possibly could. I felt like my body just wasn't getting along with my limb anymore, even though that last minute, everything was going fine. My technique is heel-up, and I've been playing against my carpet, and kind of airdrumming with my hands... seems like the cheapest method of doing this in an apartment.

Today, I practiced a little more, but I still would feel this sensation. As I woke up, my ankles still didn't feel 100%, so I didn't practice as much today. I'm just wondering, has anybody else experienced this sensation, and if so, is it something that tends to go away with practice? If not, anyone know what's going on? Thanks a lot.
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 05:50 AM »

As with all matters like these, the best advice is if you are at all concerned, seek medical advice.

Having said that, your body can play all kinds of funny tricks, especially if you are pushing it.
It's very difficult to practice speedwork without tensing up or straining muscles. The result of that is you could start to lose control of certain muscles.
Also, if I push myself on my bike, I can experience dizziness or weak muscles......like not being able to stand up properly etc.

Professional athletes most often pace themselves.
They might do a couple of days heavy workout, followed by a day of light warming down.
They might also spend a couple of weeks really pushing the envelope, followed by a week of fairly easy work.
In the end, there is as much value in time away from the drums, as there is in heavy workouts to improve speed and technique.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2007, 08:54 AM »

In the end, there is as much value in time away from the drums, as there is in heavy workouts to improve speed and technique.

that's what i was gonna say.

it sounds like overworked muscles to me. i've had that happen as well. also have had my legs just shake involuntarily. usually, if you take a few days off, the muscles get time to recup and 'wire' themselves for the higher speeds. often you'll find when you return to the kit you are better and stronger after the rest period.

muscles need time to process information and build themselves.

if rest doesn't afford you relief, go to a doctor. but in general, it sounds like overworked muscles.
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 10:35 AM »

If it's something that lasts longer than a day or two -- meaning consistent pain and agitation -- definititely  see a doctor. Otherwise, it sounds part and parcel when you are exerting muscles and tendons.

Did you know that when you overexert muscles, you are actually creating small tears? This is the usual culprit in body soreness after ANY type of workout routine involving any muscle groups. If you're on a diet that includes some protein, this process allows your body to rebuild the muscles and even expand them. It also can change the makeup up of the muscles. For example, if you are playing at a consistent pace over a long period of time, you are building up slow-twitch muscle fibers that allow for durability. If you are playing short bursts of really fast groupings, and you do this many times each practice, you are building up fast-twitch muscle fibers that allow for speed.

This revelation many years ago has dramatically impacted how athletes train. The Russians have known this for many years, and created plyometric regimens that dramatically improve an athlete's ability, catered to the type of muscle fiber and density they were shooting for. The Russian plyometric regimens are only just now becoming popularized in the U.S.
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choolan
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 12:17 PM »

Thanks for the advice guys. When I woke up yesterday morning, it still felt a little weird. The thing is, it never felt sore or painful in the least. It's just that when I would go to play drums, the control over my right ankle would still feel less than perfect... and the longer I would play without taking a break, the less control I would have.

Now that I woke up this morning, it feels perfect. However, the thing that I'm concerned with is will this happen pretty much every time I go to practice at my highest comfortable speed? Thanks again guys.
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 12:40 PM »

Now that I woke up this morning, it feels perfect. However, the thing that I'm concerned with is will this happen pretty much every time I go to practice at my highest comfortable speed? Thanks again guys.

Probably not. It's also possible you stretched a ligament or tendon, and it just needed some time to heel. Any kind of tearing of the muscle and stretching of ligaments or tendons creates an opportunity to disrupt the nerve endings that offer you control of your limbs. Unless you really had something violent happen (and it doesn't sound like it was an "event," more of simple duress and fatigue), it's difficult to do permanent damage just playing drums.

Obviously, if this is something that continues to happen over a length of time, you need to seek a medical opinion.
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choolan
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 01:18 PM »

It seems like it has been happening over a length of time though. It would happen pretty much every time I'd finish practicing with my band (3 hours of fairly intense practice). However, when I would practice with my band, it'd pretty much be the only time I'd play drums a week, because I'm at school without a drumset or anything. Now, I just started regularly practicing every day, but I play my "bass drum" by just playing against the floor. I started at a slow speed (115 bpm), and would play for a few minutes, break, and continue going. Now, I'm trying to do these exercises at 135-140 bpm, which is about what my peak range is. I started at this range a few days ago, and that's when it first happened. Yesterday, I didn't practice as hard as I did the last day, but today, I've started up again at these speeds. I'm afraid that this same sensation will happen fairly soon as I'm practicing, and this will just be a normal thing.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 01:29 PM »

It seems like it has been happening over a length of time though. It would happen pretty much every time I'd finish practicing with my band (3 hours of fairly intense practice). However, when I would practice with my band, it'd pretty much be the only time I'd play drums a week, because I'm at school without a drumset or anything. Now, I just started regularly practicing every day, but I play my "bass drum" by just playing against the floor. I started at a slow speed (115 bpm), and would play for a few minutes, break, and continue going. Now, I'm trying to do these exercises at 135-140 bpm, which is about what my peak range is. I started at this range a few days ago, and that's when it first happened. Yesterday, I didn't practice as hard as I did the last day, but today, I've started up again at these speeds. I'm afraid that this same sensation will happen fairly soon as I'm practicing, and this will just be a normal thing.

I'm not a doctor (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time), but if your goal is to move out of the 115 bpm range, you might want to do it more gradually since you say the problem happened when you jumped from 115 to 135/140.  Practice your stuff at 118 for a while, then at 120, then at 125. Work up to the 135-140 range a little more slowly if that is where you need to be.

Also: consult a doctor.
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choolan
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 01:52 PM »

Well, you're probably right. However, I didn't jump from 115 to 135... I've been doing it these past few weeks, and I would jump up in 4-5 bpm incremements. I've also been playing double bass for years now, but I always hated my playing, so I wanted to start from the ground up. But yeah, I should probably stay at a lower speed for awhile before I get to 140. Thanks.
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 02:27 PM »

I think Dave has some great advice. I also think pain is part of the learning process. My forearms used to kill when I first started regimented practice. I used to have Popeye forearms! LOL That was before I discovered finger control ... hehe

What you've described sounds like a simple problem of exertion and it takes some time to build up your ability to endure, but there's certainly plenty of room for other problems that require a medical opinion.

How about seeing a doctor and then reporting back on the results? It might help others ...
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choolan
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2007, 03:06 PM »

My uncle's a foot doctor... I spoke to my cousin today, and told him to have his father (my uncle) give me a call tonight. I'm going to ask him what he thinks. Thanks a lot for your guy's help. I'll report back on what he says.

It's just so annoying that it seems to come into effect really quickly. When I first sit down at my drums, I feel like I can play double bass at my peak speed no problem. Then, after minimal time practicing, the feeling starts to sink in, even just a little bit. After a long time of practicing, my ankles just feel like jello.
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2007, 05:20 PM »

When I first sit down at my drums, I feel like I can play double bass at my peak speed no problem. Then, after minimal time practicing, the feeling starts to sink in, even just a little bit. After a long time of practicing, my ankles just feel like jello.

Maybe it's just the way you typed this, but I hope you are playing for at least half an hour before trying to reach peak speed.
The key to successfull practice is the warm up and warm down.
You should practice (or just play), concentrating on feeling relaxed, for a good while before trying to build any new speed or chops. Likewise when you are done.
Play some slow relaxed grooves for 30 minutes.
That could be the root of your problem right there.
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choolan
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2007, 09:50 PM »

You know what, I do that, but not nearly as much as you say I should. That may be another factor too. Good advice man, I'll def try that from now on.
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byronand
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2007, 11:40 PM »

...You should practice (or just play), concentrating on feeling relaxed, for a good while before trying to build any new speed or chops....

I second Chris's suggestion.

I always begin practice slowly, not just to warm-up the muscles, but with the specific objective of working on nuance... subtlety... control... dynamics....

Speed-work comes later in my practice routine, after warm-up work.
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Tyler
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2007, 03:23 PM »

Yeah the same thing happens to me a lot as well.  Especially when I want to play my top speed right away.  I agree with everything the people have just said in this topic.  Also try some light stretching before hand and afterwords.  It's also part of a good warm up.  But it doesn't mean you can go right into your top speed, you still should try slower things and get used to it first. 
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choolan
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2007, 08:07 PM »

I got drum mutes for Christmas, but they didn't really work out too well. So yesterday, I returned them and picked up a Gibraltar practice bass drum pad. I set it up in my room, and also took a crappy snare pad my ex-drum teacher sold me and an extra snare stand, and make an impromptu practice drum kit. So far, I like it. My room is carpet, and I heard that playing the bass drum on carpet is harder. Also, the rebound off of the practice pad doesn't seem to be incredibly accurate. However, like I said before, I used to be practicing just against the floor, and that is so much easier than if you actually have a pad.

My pedal is an old (about 4 years) Mapex pedal that cost me about $150. I feel like it might be time to upgrade. The more I've been practicing in my room, the more I've realized that it's much tougher to play on then floor alone. Are there pedals out there that are pretty much like playing against the floor, with not much resistance at all? What would you guys recommend?
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choolan
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2007, 07:39 PM »

Here's something else I've been noticing while practicing too. It seems like at the end of the day, when my right leg is drained, I still seem to have complete control over my left leg. I realize that I use my right leg more, which means that I work it harder, but still, my left leg should be the weak one, yet at the end of practice days, it always seems to be more in control than my right leg.
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smoggrocks
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 02:13 PM »

It seems like it has been happening over a length of time though. It would happen pretty much every time I'd finish practicing with my band (3 hours of fairly intense practice). However, when I would practice with my band, it'd pretty much be the only time I'd play drums a week, because I'm at school without a drumset or anything. Now, I just started regularly practicing every day...

imho, that's your problem right there [in bold]. your muscles were not conditioned enough because you weren't practicing enough, and that's why you had pain. now that you are in a regular practice routine, you should experience this less. you can't run a 26-mile marathon without having first done some training with shorter runs. same deal with drums.

i wouldn't worry about the gear for now. 'it's the drummer, not the drums'. sure, some gear might give you an advantage in certain respects, but that's a nuanced thing. i'm sure your 4-year-old mapex, unless it's slapping you in the ankle, will do the job. i have a 28-year old squeaky speedking that works fine and gives me a good workout. try adjusting the angle of the beater so it's not so extreme that you have to work too hard to get good, even sound.

have your instructor check your technique to make sure you're not doing something weird. and definitely warm up before you start playing really fast. walk first, then run!
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choolan
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 07:24 PM »

You're definitely right. I had an instructor for the summer, but I really wasn't a fan of his, so I stopped. With him, it was 1 and a half hours of reading. He never once looked at my technique, and in the 8 or so lessons I had with him, I spent maybe 10 minutes on the drumset. I understand that learning to read is important, but I feel like technique and whatnot is just as important, and he completely disregarded this. Since I'm at school now, I don't really have time for lessons, but come next summer, I will look again.

However, could you look at my question before this, about my left foot/leg feeling more comfortable than my right one. Pretty much all the time, I feel like I can play singles faster on the floor with my left than right. I understand that I work my right harder, so it probably gets more fatigued, but it still seems weird to me.
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Tyler
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2007, 05:39 PM »

I have the same problem expect my right foot is better than my left.  After I do a practice session my left seems to be a bit more tired.  But something I am trying now (I also just bought a gibralter bass practice pad Smiley and I also practice on the carpet) is I stay at a speed where I can do it for a while or you can do this while doing any pattern or speed but just try it for a little while and while doing this I close my eyes and concentrate.  When something starts to tighten up I have a better chance of locating it and stop the muscle from tightening up and just concentrating on control and relaxation.  Plus closing my eyes helps me to concentrate better since I can look around and lose my focus instead of what I am practing.  It works really well for me to pinpoint my weak points while playing.  I do this at some point during practice but usually at the beginning so I can practice doing things the right way.  The point is that try that and keep relaxed as possible then you won't wear out as fast have your leg feeling extremely fatigued after practice. 
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choolan
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2007, 07:59 PM »

Yeah, I feel like my left should be more tired also, considering that it's my weak foot. But I think I just chalk it up to my right leg working harder when I practice, being that I lead with it and play it a lot more.

And yeah, I hear what you're saying about the concentration. It seems like for me, when I actually start thinking "don't mess up, keep it even," that's when I mess up. It'll go from even R-L-R-L-R-L to R-L-R-L-RL--RL--, etc. Right now, I'm staying at 130 bpm, and I can keep that pretty even and comfortable for awhile.

Just a question for you Tyler, how do you like the Gibraltar practice pad? So far, I like it. The rebound (or lack there of) definitely takes getting used to, but I feel that if I can play well on this (on carpet), then when I play my actual set, I'll feel way more comfortable... kind of like warming up in baseball with a heavier bat. Also, the practice bass pad with my makeshift snare pad actually gives me a good practice kit, so I can actually practice drums when I'm home, not just air drums.
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Tyler
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2007, 06:20 PM »

Yeah I do that too when I try to concentrate sometimes but I still force myself to stay calm at times and just pinpoint my weakpoints.  What's tense, what is doing what... 

I actually like the Gibralter practice pad.  I do also have the hasen futz (2 of them for double kick practice), drum mutes for my set and the Gibralter.  The hasen futz is the most quiet out of all of them with the Gibralter in second.  But the hansen futz I use if I just sit in front of the tv with a metronome going and give it for a long time.  They are nice for building stamina and strength but they don't exactly feel like a real pedal.  That is why I really like the Gibralter practice pad.  I can use my pedals and practice quietly and get used to my pedals and learn what's going on with them. 

Yeah that's all you really need is your Gibralter practice pad and your makeshift pad.  One things is maybe add another makeshift pad or two where you would put the toms.  It is important to practice rudiments but if you have too much practice on the one practice pad then you won't be able to carry it all over the drums if you just use the one pad.  So yeah that might help for transitioning to the other drums as well. 
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