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Author Topic: Need advice for playing unmiked...  (Read 1309 times)
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chillman4130
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« on: December 09, 2006, 07:21 PM »

I played a pretty good show this week at a venue that doesn't usually have live music. As such, their mains were about 20 feet from the stage and facing towards the stage. Also, more importantly, I didn't have a monitor. The only mic they put on my kit was a kick mic, and I couldn't hear it through the mains.

I couldn't hear myself very well even though it was a really "live" sounding room. My band is pretty loud, and I usually get a decent monitor mix with a little kick and snare in it. The problem was, since I didn't have any monitor, I feel like I played harder and I broke a pair of sticks. Brand new Steve Gadd sticks too. Am I spoiled with a monitor mix, or is there a good solution to this?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2006, 07:48 PM »

My only advice....
Try and get used to being self sufficient.
One thing you can try and do is distance your kit from any other loud sound sources.
On a recent tour i tried to set up behind the guitar and bass amps.
I asked fellow band mates to angle their monitors away from me.
As it happens, I tried not to have any drums in my monitors (if I had monitors).
Having the PA set up pointing towards the stage, doesn't sound like that great an idea to me.
You must have been blasted from all angles.
Your bandmates should be able to adjust too. If it was a small venue and not usually used for music, they may have been playing too loud.
In recent times I've worked on projecting my sound - strong bass drum and snare playing.
I've also worked on being OK if I can't really hear what I'm doing.


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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2006, 10:11 PM »

Play hard, and make your gear is doing as much of the work as possible.

You may also want to go to heavier sticks - Gadd sticks are nice, but you may want something beefier like a 5B. And experiment to find the loudest, fullest-sounding combination of heads and drums.

My own combination for this situation is an Aquarian Impact I bass drum head, the hard side of a 2-sided DW beater, and an Aquarian Hi-Energy head on the snare. I bury the beater, and use either 3As or 5Bs, depending on how loud we're playing.

Using that combination, I can hear myself fine with a very noisy 12-piece band with no drum monitor - the only thing I have in my monitor is my bandleader's instrument and vocals.

Like Chris says, it pays to have a strong, assertive kick and snare. I can't think of any amplified situation where you're likely to get asked to play your bass drum softer - people like feeling that pulse!



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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2006, 11:56 PM »

My own combination for this situation is an Aquarian Impact I bass drum head, the hard side of a 2-sided DW beater, and an Aquarian Hi-Energy head on the snare. I bury the beater, and use either 3As or 5Bs, depending on how loud we're playing.


Mr. A, just curious, are you saying you use a different bass drum head for different venue/sound settings or just that this head works great for the situation described???
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2006, 08:46 AM »

Mr. A, just curious, are you saying you use a different bass drum head for different venue/sound settings or just that this head works great for the situation described???

This is the combination I use for most of my work - my thought is I want my drums to have as much sonic potential as possible, so that they're doing most of the work, at whatever volume I'm playing. I do have some drums that are louder than others; for high-volume gigs, I make sure I use my loudest ones.

But the main thing I want to avoid is having to overplay my drums, which is both frustrating and ineffective. For example, I would not try to play a loud gig with no monitors using a hydraulic bass head and a soft fuzzy bass drum beater, and a wood-shell snare with a fiberskin head.

Some heads and tunings are louder than others, as are some techniques. For situations like the one described in this thread, I recommend using every volume-producing trick in the book.

It IS possible to play very hard and still stay relaxed. It takes practice to build that kind of technique, but it can be done. Between using the loudest gear possible and building your high-volume chops, this sort of situation can be conquered.
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2006, 09:56 AM »

I have to agree with what Mr. A has said....But people like Keith, Bart, and many people who play various gig settings has various drumsets "set up" for "that" gig. That's also why I've purchased several sets. If I choose the right set many times mics don't need to be used. People who have only one set has to make what they have work for their needs. That's where knowing head choices, the room or venue, and mics come into play. I agree with the fact that I should be able to let the drums do the work, more than I have to beat the tar out of myself and my drums to do it. If you get educated on what "your" drums can do with certain heads you may overcome breaking sticks, heads, etc.... Then when you finally decide you need "more" it's time to purchase mics.... Most pro players can realize when they need a different drumset or mics. That comes with experience. But there was a time I didn't have that choice and just had to beat them to death.... I broke a lot of sticks and heads during those years.    Grin   If the place is small enough that they rarely use bands, my thinking would be not to even use anything other than a bass mic. They're not needed for that venue. I've played many times without a monitor. You just have to pay attention and listen harder. I prefer a monitor, but some settings a guitarist/leader has decided he needs the space more than I need the monitor. In that case I just play the gig, and if I mess up because I can't hear I bring it to the leaders attention. Then if we play that venue again he can decide which is more important. "His" gear or a monitor.....Most of the time a drummer will lose that arguement if it comes to that.    Huh   Grin
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2006, 10:28 AM »

I have to agee with what Mr. A has said....But people like Keith, Bart, and many people who play various gig settings has various drumsets "set up" for "that" gig.

I only have one bass drum I use for amplified gigs - a 14x22 Gretsch. I've got it set up to be as loud as possible, and my primary snare is set up the same - an Acrolite with a Hi-Energy head. But in addition to playing loud gigs with these, I can play ANY gig with them. They're not JUST my "loud" drums - they're my all-around drums.

I have other smaller kits, built with portability (the microkit) or novelty (the cocktail kit) in mind. And I do have a "bop" kit, with the drums tuned much higher than I would for any other style. But that kit almost never gets used.

My main point is to have your primary kit set up to fulfill its maximum volume potential. You can always play softer, but if your kit is set up to work against you, you will hit a point beyond which it's hard (if not impossible) to play louder.
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2006, 11:38 AM »

Although I can use the same gear on most gigs, I always keep a stickbag full of options to help adapt to the volume requirements of the gig. I've got brushes, hotrods, and 7A, 3A, and 5Bs with me at all times. Most of the time I use 3As, but it's nice to have some room in both directions, for particularly loud or soft gigs.
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chillman4130
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2006, 09:39 PM »

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I suppose my stick choice is a big part of the problem when combined with that room. I used to use huge sticks, either Vater 5B's or Vater assaults. But I feel like I lost some of my control with them.

I suspect that Mr. Whitten was right about the speakers facing toward me along with my band playing too loud. My singer was complaining about my snare drum piercing his ears though, so I think the mix was fine to everyone except me (isn't that always the case?). The stage was too small to accomodate me finding my own isolated niche though. I suppose this was just a combination of circumstances that led to me breaking sticks.

FWIW, I do try my best to set up my kit so it projects the most without the need for mics. I have coated G2's for all my tom and snare batters, and clear G1's for resos. I use an Aquarian Super Kick I with a ported single-ply front head with usually no muffling (thanks to DC for that one). Not to mention my cymbals are designed to never need overheads. 18" and 19" A Medium crashes and a 22" K Heavy ride.

But there are (as always) some great gems of advice from you veterans. That's why I come here. I seriously feel my drum knowledge and professionalism would not be a fraction of what it is without the DC. Here's where Bart comes in saying maybe I should purchase a VIP membership...

Maybe I will if I have money left over from Christmas shopping.

Thanks again for all your advice everyone!
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 11:21 PM »

Your set up and heads look fine chillman.
Very similar to mine.....and I had people asking me to 'turn down' in some smaller venues.
Perhaps it was just one of those nights?
They do happen every now and then.
'Experienced pro's' often find themselves in difficult positions where the sound isn't right, or they can't hear things properly. that's gigging!
That's what I alluded to before. Guys like Bart and Mr A are experienced enough to play a good gig, even if the circumstances aren't ideal.
Also, to chime in with Mr A.
I have a number of kits, but I own them for different sounds, not for varied gig situations.
I can play loud and soft on the same kit, with the same heads and same mics.
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 05:08 PM »

I think there's an additional clue in the singer's remark about the snare volume, and I will address that clue.

Drums have a 'perceived' volume and FULL, ROUND TONE up to a certain point-- and then they get buried, IMHO, in the wash of guitars and basses and other instruments.

But the drums may still be loud as heck to everyone but the drummer. We're just used to a certain 'aural feedback' and we freak out when it's gone. I believe this to be a relative condition, because I've 'lost the punch' from my drums on mega-loud rock gigs and on semi-bop jazz gigs, at wildly different actual volumes.

The butt-kickers illustrate the 'effect' we like-- it's not that the drum isn't loud, it's that we want to PERCEIVE it as loud. But there's a danger in 'chasing' the volume we want, because what we hear may not be 'accurate' out front. Monitors and PA are supposed to supply aural beauty to the musicians, but don't count on it in the USA!

I think it behooves a drummer to have some 'muscle memory' and technique of what is invisible/soft/medium/loud/freakin' loud/ridiculous and to play accordingly, with sticks to match, and just 'believe it' whether or not you can hear it/feel it coming from your drums.
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 06:08 PM »

I think there's an additional clue in the singer's remark about the snare volume, and I will address that clue.

Drums have a 'perceived' volume and FULL, ROUND TONE up to a certain point-- and then they get buried, IMHO, in the wash of guitars and basses and other instruments.

But the drums may still be loud as heck to everyone but the drummer. We're just used to a certain 'aural feedback' and we freak out when it's gone. I believe this to be a relative condition, because I've 'lost the punch' from my drums on mega-loud rock gigs and on semi-bop jazz gigs, at wildly different actual volumes.

The butt-kickers illustrate the 'effect' we like-- it's not that the drum isn't loud, it's that we want to PERCEIVE it as loud. But there's a danger in 'chasing' the volume we want, because what we hear may not be 'accurate' out front. Monitors and PA are supposed to supply aural beauty to the musicians, but don't count on it in the USA!

I think it behooves a drummer to have some 'muscle memory' and technique of what is invisible/soft/medium/loud/freakin' loud/ridiculous and to play accordingly, with sticks to match, and just 'believe it' whether or not you can hear it/feel it coming from your drums.

You definitely understand what I am trying to communicate. I think you're right: we just kinda have to remember how loud our drums are even if we're not "Feeling" them like we're used to. That's definitely the phenomenon I was getting at. Thanks for your feedback!

But what's with the crack about the USA?  Shocked
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2007, 05:32 AM »

 Roll Eyes Hey, Chillman--

The USA crack sort of slipped out. I got to do a little bit of touring in Holland and Denmark a couple of years ago: Every Single PA was wonderful, manned by skilled, marvelous people. I believe I heard feedback (the bad, you know squeal kind, not the constructive criticism kind) ONE TIME all summer. I could hear my drums, the vocals, it was unreal-- and faaassst!

But in all my other years of playing, most all of them in Los Angeles, feedback was a 'regular' part of every gig, big or small. It ticks me off.

Maybe it's all PA good in Ohio or whatever, I dunno. Never been. So, yeah, that crack slipped out. I should have at least said, "L.A." instead of USA.
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2007, 11:33 AM »

Roll Eyes Hey, Chillman--

The USA crack sort of slipped out. I got to do a little bit of touring in Holland and Denmark a couple of years ago: Every Single PA was wonderful, manned by skilled, marvelous people. I believe I heard feedback (the bad, you know squeal kind, not the constructive criticism kind) ONE TIME all summer. I could hear my drums, the vocals, it was unreal-- and faaassst!

But in all my other years of playing, most all of them in Los Angeles, feedback was a 'regular' part of every gig, big or small. It ticks me off.

Maybe it's all PA good in Ohio or whatever, I dunno. Never been. So, yeah, that crack slipped out. I should have at least said, "L.A." instead of USA.

Well I've never had the privilege of playing in Europe (keeping my fingers crossed though) but I have had similar (but limited) experience with stages and venues. Sound quality is iffy at best, and I never count on being able to hear myself. And soundguys...that's another thread there I think. I mean, I only play rock clubs, but most soundguys are untrustworthy and difficult to communicate with. Of course, a few years of running sound at a bar would probably make me surly too. The best soundguy I ever met was a guy named Joe Kuhlmann at a venue called The Evening Muse in Charlotte, NC. He was talented and professional and kind. Otherwise, I've had pretty hit-and-miss experiences.
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2007, 03:02 PM »

I kind of feel like I have taken the Chris approch.  I played a gig last night and again tonight
where I am really playing in a hole in the wall.  Very unusual conditions.  The hole in the wall is 9 X 13 feet and we have to fit the whole band in there, equipment and all.  I don't
have room for the subs.   I never put my drums in the monitors.  I am sitting right over top of them so if I can't hear them, the band is to loud.  We are in a hole that is six foot off the ground right behind a very long bar.  They asked us to please not make the bar tender go deaf. The way we have over come this.  The mains are at the front of the stage in the front corners raised over the level of the bar tenders head with milk creates.  We have one monitor right in front of the kick drum for the bass player and guitar player.  There is one monitor in the back corner pointing right at me.  The guitar players amp is even with me to my right and the bass players is a little behind me to my left.
I had the bass player go up front to sound check wireless with his sound meter.
We are 95dbs right in front of the bar.  Everyone commented on how well the band was balanced and were told by the bar tender that we were not to loud.  I only miked the kick drum, Guitar and DI the bass and the vocals.  When setting up sound for a band you always start with the drums.  If you are not miking the drums then the band needs to play at the sound level that the drums are at.
Do this and you will be able to hear yourself.
                              Nutty
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 11:14 AM »

With only a kick mic, well, the snare will carry but I would make sure my toms were tuned for optimum sustain or ring as some call it. Getting the top and bottom heads as close as possible and I would tune em a little higher if you play with low tuned fat sounding toms. They'll project better.
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2007, 08:20 PM »

I am surprised that nobody mentioned it earlier, but it doesn't matter what you sound like on stage. Out front is what matters. And its the band's sound as a whole that matters. Having the drummer play louder is not always the right answer. Everything is relative. And rooms are different. That is why you need a sound check (unless you are really experienced with the room and the group) to determine the proper levels.
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 10:28 AM »

I am surprised that nobody mentioned it earlier, but it doesn't matter what you sound like on stage. Out front is what matters. And its the band's sound as a whole that matters. Having the drummer play louder is not always the right answer. Everything is relative. And rooms are different. That is why you need a sound check (unless you are really experienced with the room and the group) to determine the proper levels.
Hi rca,
I agree with you in some sense but not all.  I work with a guy from time to time over a 30 year span that has played in the pro circuit and to him the monitor mix is more important than anything.
I wish I could say that I have played in front of 80,000 people but he really can. I am jamming with
him this Sunday.  He is going to help us do some recording on a digital recorder we haven't learned to use yet. He is now raising kids and running sound.
 I agree with you that the answer is not always to beat the drums harder. As far as the different rooms and sizes, your EQ is probably the most important piece of equipment. This thread was about playing unmiked.  You wouldn't play a large room/hall, unmiked.
Playing a small bar is different.  You need to play at a comfortable level so you don't cause the
crowd to go deaf.  The whole band needs to come down to the level of the drums.  Any sound school
will teach you that you sound check the drums first.  Then you bring the other instruments in at that
volume level.
                 Nutty
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2007, 01:01 PM »

We aren't saying anything different Nutty. A monitor mix is important to a great perfomance,  but it does not replace a sound check which is necessary to make sure that the audience doesn't miss out on the great performance.
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 12:09 PM »

Just my 2 cents.. but In-Ear monitors saved my life.  I use some from a place called Precision Labs.  look for them on the web..  only $149.00 for custom molded in-ears ( you can even swim with them if you can find a water proof Ipod ).  My ears used to ring horribly after a night and it was a struggle to hear any of the band..  but i've fixed all that..

of course, I play hard too, comes from a drum corps background. but it's easier to play harder/louder when you aren't killing yourself with volume.

my setup is this.. an inexpensive 12 channel mixer behind the kit with me with an input from the main head aux out, a bass kick mic input ( because I can't hear my kick with the in-ears in ), and one overhead cond. mic.. ( although i've stopped using that as my vocal mic picks up enough drums for me to hear them.  So if you don't sing, you may need an overhead ). and my bass player gives me a line out from his amp.

I used to giggle when we'd play these moderately sized places.. and the sound guy would put all these mics all over my drums.   a 1 inch overhead cond. and kick mic is all you need for most places ( 2000 seat venues may be different ).  Most PA's are way too oversized and do nothing but muddy things up.

I have complete control of my own mix and I get enough guitar from the stage mics and I get the vocals from the PA aux out.

I use a samson headphone amp to drive the in-ears from an aux pre-fader out on the mixer.. and I give the PA one of the mains from my mixer for my vocals and kick drum.   I also play keyboards and use midi sequences with click tracks, so the in-ears also provide click isolation for me...but those are only 8 or 9 songs out of a night..

this way I can send as much kick mic and vocals out to the mains as I need.   Since we are self contained, we never use a sound guy, it's not a problem to repeat this setup night after night ( we are a 3 piece rock band... so we can play loud if we need to. ).  But we've been together for 13 years.. so we've had much practice at setting this up.

you can have this set up for the price of just a few gigs... and never worry about it again.  Most recently, I have added a 5 panel drum shield.  yeah, it looks like i'm afraid of people throwing things at me... but man, has it made a difference..
1.  the drums don't come through the vocal mics near as much.
2.  the drums don't kill the guitarist and bass player, so they don't turn up as much ( BIG SELLING POINT HERE )
3.  the whole volume comes down, makes bar owners happy, people aren't leaving because it's too loud.   If you need volume, use the overhead/bass drum mic to give it...  I love the drumshield..

I would be happy to explain more in detail about any aspect of this,  I really have the best monitoring setup that i've seen for a non big-name band.., I can't imagine playing a full night without it...
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