DRUMMER CAFE

You are very right about making this statement. When I first came to this forum I stated early on that as a teenager I wanted to be just like John Bonham.  For years I did claim that I was self taught. I was quickly educated by many drummers on this site and I stood so corrected that my mind was changed very quickly. It was a stupid statement now that I really think about it.  I am very flattered and humble that you would have followed my text that closely. I have read probably almost everyone of your posts also.  You have never done anything but try to support me and seeing both sides of this issue, you were probably the most open minded.  Gaddabout also in several PM messages. Thank all of you for supporting me.  Believe me when I tell you that I wish, growing up that I had the
resources. Looking back, I should have done a lot of things different.
We probably all feel that way about something we did or didn't do?
                                  Nutty   

Tony’s words speaking to people wearing a badge of honor about being self taught… “Well, I can tell you that to most schooled drummers, your self teaching is painfully obvious. “  Is this the timbre you refer to?  This might be an appropriate technique for some teachers to use (intentionally offend to break em down???)…  I wouldn’t know.   I’m not offended by the statement.  I expect some would be.

And the REAL point is……   Unfortunately, this form of communication seems limited to work through the nuances.  Sounds like we should sit down over some pie (or a pint) and we'd be better able to figure out what the point is.   And honestly, sometimes I forget what the original post was all about.  If the point is "there's frustration with people asking for advice on the cafe and either won't accept the advice given, want an instant fix, want you to explain in one paragraph something that takes years to learn" - no argument, enough said, close the thread.  Admittedly, MY point is tangential and only intended to offer another perspective or balance.   I'm not talking about what working musicians say about Joe Pass or Martin Taylor.  I'm not even specifically referring to what's discussed in the cafe.  I'm saying that in society (not in the forum specifically, not among the musicians specifically, working or not), eyebrows are raised when it is mentioned that an accomplished musician is "self taught".  I’ve seen this over and over and over.  I’m surprised you never seen this.  Perhaps it’s because I’ve NOT spent most of my life as a musician so I hear what normal folks say about them.   I’m not surprised therefore if someone comes in with an “I’m self taught and proud of it vibe”. Lord knows there are just as many arrogant folks with proper education… In the world of art specifically, there is a school of thought that says structured training can limit creativity.  Shoot, even in soccer, Ronaldo says that one of the reasons Americans don’t play well is because the kids are channeled into organized soccer at such an early age.  Am I in the camp that says to avoid formal training – no!  But I don’t deny that it exists or that there is some benefit for some to go that route.  I really don’t care what kind of questions the newbies come in to the café with – I’m more concerned with what they leave with.  For the most part, the café does a great job of getting folks genuinely interested in learning on the right track.  It’s just my opinion that the right track for some may not be the one conformed to by the majority. Understanding this might help some to be less frustrated with the kind of attitude people bring with their questions.

This is rumbling on......
It seems to me we are all now pretty much agreeing with each other and only arguing over nuances and semantics.
However and For What It's Worth, here is my take on formal training and the self-taught.

I undertook individual percussion and drum tuition from the age of 11.
I took part in National Orchestra summer camps and left school at 16 to study at music college, classical percussion, music theory and later; drum kit and popular music.
While at college I played in several cover bands - weeknights at a traditional dance hall (foxtrots, waltzes and top 40 later in the evening). Weekends I played in a Chicago Transit Authority cover band and an Earth, Wind & Fire cover band, both in pubs.
My only direction came from the college tutors and from my college compadres, who like me were obsessed with Steely Dan, Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra and Return To Forever. I was influenced by drummers: Lenny White, Billy Cobham, Narada Michael Walden and Simon Phillips.
Despite all the professional work I undertook, I was still largely the product of an old fashioned college system and a narrow minded group of fellow students.
Cut a long story short.....
Time to start a professional career.
The popular music of the day was The Police, The Clash, Elvis Costello and Talking Heads.
I found the overplayed style of fusion drumming was not popular at all in London. Neither was the tasteful studio playing of Steve Gadd and Peter Erskine.
Evolve or die were the only two choices. So I started to move away from the rules that had been drummed into me at college. I noticed that I received most praise when I played with raw energy and from the heart.
Stage Two (Joining bands)
I started to hang out with musicians who had never studied music, but had attended art college, or had never taken part in further education at all. In rehearsals I bit my tongue about the wrong chords they were playing, the out of tune and out of time way they played guitar or bass. At the gigs I was amazed at the tension these techniques created. These people played by instinct.....and the instinct was more about emotion than abiding by music theory.
In the end I became fascinated by the sheer inventiveness of music derived from the bass playing in F#, while the guitars were in C, or from the band playing straight 8's while the drums implied a slight shuffle.
To conclude, I realised I had to drop all my preconceived and learned notions of 'proper' music and embrace the 'there are no rules' approach.
Without doubt, the 'best' musicians I've played with have been tutored to a high level, but the most original, most important and most inspirational have all been 'self taught' (in the accepted definition). I'm thinking McCartney for example.
My conclusion is that the best of all worlds is achieved by taking formal lessons while being able to see beyond the rule book. Tuition teaches the building blocks of good technique and music theory.
My tuition was in the 1970's. The teachers were either classical based or failed and disappointed jazz musicians.
Things have very much changed. In the 21st century, good drum teachers are very much aware of Dave Grohl, Danny Carey and Larry Mullen jr. There should be no fear in seeking out expert advice on basic drumming techniques. But at the same time, I abhor music only for musicians and applaud those who are not afraid to experiment and above all perform with commitment and for real..........no matter what their technical command of the instrument is.

Not exactly, I skipped over several important details to avoid droning on about myself, which I did anyway. 

But you got the point. 

When I was a teen my great-grandpa told me "never let a formal education get in the way of learning!"  "Acquire all the education you can but use it as a stepping stool and not a stumbling block."

 When I say this debate will never be resolved, I am talking about Educated Musicians vs. Self Taught Musicians compared with Science vs. Religion. Scientist’s will always believe the earth was created by a big explosion, religion believes that a higher power created it. Which one is correct? Both sides believe they are correct and will argue that point adamantly. It would probably not be wise for a scientist to debate evolution during the middle of Sunday school; you mess with one bean, you mess with the whole burrito. Furthermore, some people are so convinced they are in the right, that they will lower themselves to taking personal shots at the opposition in an attempt to damage that person’s credibility, making their argument stronger since the opposition now has to try and defend both himself and his point of view.
When this thread started and I first posted, I made it clear that I agreed with the fact that having private training is better than being self taught, and then proceeded to list a ton of ways that I personally used since I was not educated by a private teacher. I also made the comment that no one has the right to take away anyone’s “Badge of Honor” and I still stand by that point. It’s quite obvious that most of you if not everyone interprets this badge as an ego trip of some sort, where amateur musicians brag about how great they are. I didn’t see it as that so maybe that’s my fault, or it is the opinion of one side of the spectrum, but to me there is a certain amount of pride and self confidence that comes with being able to achieve your goals, regardless of the obstacles in your path and the method you chose. I interpreted that as my badge of honor, and I don’t see how that can be argued by anyone regardless of your background, education, exp, etc…

I don’t see any reason for this to be a discussion simply because we will continue to go around in circles. I am doing what I have to do to be the best drummer that I can, and I know I am not alone in doing so. To those of us still working hard at perfecting our craft, keep up the hard work and good luck to you. We all know it will pay off in the long run.

Tony, I think the most disturbing part of this thread initially, at least for me was the fact that you tried to separate the educated musician from the uneducated musician making it seem that the uneducated musician can never achieve the same level as a schooled musician. Proclaiming that those that can’t afford lessons or equipment are just making excuses and that if you want something bad enough, “grind it out" which is exactly what I did, and others like myself.
 Then this whole “Badge of Honor” thing, to me sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. There are so many “educated” musicians out there that have gone to college and have music degrees and can spit out notations and polyrhythm(s) (or w/e they are called) without even thinking about it. Ask them to actually play the drums or w/e instrument and they really are not that great BUT because they went to school and have a degree, they now consider themselves a better quality musician than those who do not.

(EXAMPLE) My roommate claims to be a guitar player, claims that he has taken music theory classes and guitar classes, and claims to have this “project” in his head that he wants to put together. He can read tabs, charts, knows his chords and scales, knows music notation, has 6 guitars, 1 bass, 3 amps, and a bunch of recording equipment but can’t play worth a squat. Yet he is the Editor in Chief of a popular music entertainment magazine so he is doing interviews with people like Mike Patton, Bass Player for Primus, (Les?) Rob Zombie to name a few, all who give him tips and advice, which just feeds his false sensibility that he is a good musician. He has such bad timing and tempo issues that I just refuse to play with him; there isn’t a school out there that can teach him that, but as long as he doesn’t have to actually play his instrument, you would think he must be great if he went to school for music.
Claiming to be able to tell who is and isn’t trained is quite a remarkable skill, but I don’t believe you or anyone else has that ability. There are so many shoddy musicians out there who have taken private lessons and instruction for years, yet they lacked that natural ability it takes to be a musician. They play just as poorly as some of the non-educated musicians out there and are just as painfully obvious, except what’s worse is that they are supposed to be “educated” which is quite an intimidating word to a lot of folks.

Man this thread is fun.  Right now I am playing music with a friend of mine that's parents used to play bluegrass in the family room when he was 4. His first acoustic guitar was a Yamaha that he got when he was 5.  Never paid for a lesson but now he is giving some. He is the best, most versitile guitar player I have ever played with in my life. He brought over a bass player about 2 months ago.  It was the most awesome bass player I have every played with in my intire life.  Dennis (the guitar player) started telling him what notes he was playing and the bass player said, I don't know what your are talking about just start playing.  We got through over 40 songs that day including Carry On Our Wayward Sun or was it Son, and over a dozen other fairly complicated songs. We recorded it and I let my other bands guitar player listen to it and he said that you all are already good enough to play out.  We will be playing again Thursday.  What a group of guys with much in common.  Dennis is my friend for life.  I really don't care about all this labeling. I love playing music and what I am doing is working for me or they wouldn't be coming back.  Dennis and I took about a 25 year break from playing music with each other.  We played music from 1976 -1978. We have been playing on and off for about 5 years again now.  I don't really have many people tell me straight up what they think of my drumming.  Dennis has told me many times that I am the best he has worked with. I have worked very hard to hear that from someone I respect as much as him. As far a auditions go, I haven't auditioned for anyone in over 12 years.  I have no lack of good musicians to play music with.
This feels very good.  This is the only badge I play music for. It is to hear that people really enjoy what I do on a drum kit.  I don't think that any of us just play for ourselves. We play for the people or at least I do.
The magic short cut to me has been all the hard work and my determination. All this argueing takes all the fun out of
talking about the craft itself.  Do all these technical terms really matter to me? Not until I came to this forum and tried to communicate with all the educated drummers. I think I am learning the terms but I knew how to play drums before I came here. Why can't we all just let it go?
Again I say Peace!!
                               Nutty

I like how you post long arguments for your point of view and then end them with:


and then post more long arguments for your position.

Similar to my thoughts on being able to pick out a "self taught" player, let me point out the fact that you and Drumnut, especially, seem to have issues with the way this thread has gone.  Your vehement arguments would seem to indicate a sense of insecurity in the background you have.  That's your problem, and yours alone.

You and Nutty have focused on one small aspect of a generally productive discussion and tried to twist words around to meet your point of view.  I never made any mention or used any words to indicate that I felt that this:


was true or the meaning of anything I said, and to imply or state otherwise is a bastardization of my words to fuel your insecurities.


So what?  You've confused formal training with a college degree or schooling.  I've been advocating LESSONS from a QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, along with PRACTICE and HARD WORK.  It's like when some guy comes in here and posts a long drawn explanation of a cool new fill he's come across after playing with himself for 3 years with no lessons and when the day is done he's outlined a double paradiddle that he would have been exposed to within a few months of some kind of FORMAL TRAINING with a QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, like you might find at the local music store for $15 a lesson.

Which brings me to the next point.  If you're here looking for the "best" piece of gear for $200 that will make you play better and/or faster, you're better off spending the $$ on lessons.  If I can use a 20 year old Gibraltar DB pedal that weighs a ton for a metal band recording and lay down some blistering 180BPM blasts, was it my pedal or was it the years of hard work I put in playing Stick Control with my feet to a metronome?  If I couldn't have played what was required, I wouldn't have blamed it on my pedal, that's for sure.  You can either do it or you can't.  The equipment should have a negligible impact on your performance, not be the difference in being able to play a passage properly.

You're right Danny, it is an endless debate that will never be resolved.  But only because people will often ignore the facts and concentrate on the anomaly's.  Of course for every situation, there are circumstances that defy the odds.  Just because one person survived a skydiving accident doesn't mean I should have the same expectation everytime that happens.  It's negative expected value, and that's just a losing proposition.

Clearly there will be opinions offered up here as to stick size/brand, cymbal manufacturer, and Gibralter vs Pearl vs DW rack.  This will need all to be settled before said 'fight to the death' begins.