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Author Topic: What is 'advanced' to you?  (Read 2427 times)
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2007, 10:05 PM »

Yes.
.
.
.
.
And let's get back to the original subject, I was enjoying reading everyone's perception of 'advanced'.
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2007, 11:43 PM »

Maybe "advanced" has to be qualified a little further, addressing more discreet aspects of drum playing?

A player concerned with technical facility and independence in the context of extended drum solos a la Bozzio or Minneman etc. would define his progress in terms of those skills. "Advanced" might be the ability to play these complicated polyrhythms or the development of fast, clean sticking. This is not to say that groove or musicality is unimportant to such a player, just that his/her personal goals are focused on making this type of music (certainly a legitimate musical goal).

On the other hand, a player more concerned with ensemble drumming would probably focus on other points raised previously - musicality, awareness/empathy, groove etc. "Advanced" to this player might be the ability to keep impeccable time in a musically appropriate way, with particular emphasis on the ensemble sound. Again, that is not to say that chops and independence are unimportant to this drummer, just that he/she defines progress in different terms.   

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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2007, 01:24 AM »

A player concerned with technical facility and independence in the context of extended drum solos a la Bozzio or Minneman etc. would define his progress in terms of those skills. "Advanced" might be the ability to play these complicated polyrhythms or the development of fast, clean sticking. This is not to say that groove or musicality is unimportant to such a player, just that his/her personal goals are focused on making this type of music (certainly a legitimate musical goal).

On the other hand, a player more concerned with ensemble drumming would probably focus on other points raised previously - musicality, awareness/empathy, groove etc. "Advanced" to this player might be the ability to keep impeccable time in a musically appropriate way, with particular emphasis on the ensemble sound. Again, that is not to say that chops and independence are unimportant to this drummer, just that he/she defines progress in different terms.   

I think Bozzio is an interesting test case here because I think he exemplifies the kind of drummer I think of as "advanced." There no doubt he's a great support drummer. Great stuff with the Brecker Brothers, and took a different approach with everyone he played with -- Zappa, Missing Persons, Korn, etc.

I think he would take offense to anyone who described what he does as a drum solo. He considers it percussion composition, he just happens to be able to play multiple parts. His compositions are highly musical, creative, and bounding with technical ability.

He's more than just a technical freak (much much more) and that's why I think he's an *advanced player.* He would be dynamite in any musical situation.
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2007, 01:55 AM »

Who says you can't be someone that can groove like a madman and then pull out super duper chops when called for?

"Lord: give me the retraint to play time when I should, the courage to go for it when appropriate, and the wisdom to know the difference."
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2007, 04:39 AM »

Good thread.  I will get back to it after I have pondered it.

Tony, you are a very mean person.   Grin 
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 07:49 AM »

I haven't thought in semantic terms like trying to define "advanced" before, but off the top of my head, I think you see these qualities in advanced players:

Creativity - the next step after building some vocabulary is figuring out new things to say with it.

Confidence - the key thing that makes a drummer feel good is when he or she moves past merely surviving a song or groove to actually playing and owning that song or groove.

Awareness - of what's going on in the song, and of what the other band members are doing - and then interacting with (and often driving) what they're doing.

Heightened ability to learn - learning is itself a skill, and it can be developed and polished. Advanced players typically have gotten good at grasping new concepts, often by simply seeing and hearing, without needing them to be explained to them. Maybe this might better be called realtime analytic ability.


I really like MAC's first point.  Everyone has good points.  The last point screams TALENT to me.  An individual is only born with so much.

Playing a back beat or an inverted diddle over a 5 pedal ostinato... owning it, making it groove but making it your sound and complimenting, propelling and making the music itself sound better. 

The "sound" resonates with me also as does groove.  I like to record, alot, and I have so MUCH appreciation for the big guys the more I have listened to.  Especially the ones that respect the silence and let the instrument to the work.

The really great recordings (to me- I like bands that are "bands" type of stuff) where the sum is greater than the parts.  I think this comes with an honesty, a humility and lots of experience.  Maybe it's great engineering and pro tools, but I don't believe so.  An emotionally moving performance from an "advanced player" or players.  They took all the bits that make up music and it's theory and give us, as listeners and observers (live) a memorable experience; sometimes one that we just can't get enough of!  That's advanced to me.
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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2007, 08:54 AM »

The main characteristic I associate with an advanced player is the ability to communicate musically with the members of the band and the members of the audience. 
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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2007, 10:24 AM »

To clarify my answer, it's a given that one has "chops" at this level.  But most high school marching band kids have smoking chops, so does that make them advanced players?  No, IMO, it's all about mindset.  Any monkey can play blazing fast passages that are technically out of sight.  It's muscle memory.  Big whoop.

Being an "advanced" player, to me, is having the ability to play what's necessary at the right time.  If it means playing a driving groove that owns the band, then you do it.  If it means laying down a shaker and tamborine groove, then you do it; same if you have to bust out a blast beat or a samba.

It's like I said originally, there are 1000's of drummers who have the "technical" skills of an "advanced" drummer.  But what really makes them advanced, IMO, is knowing the purpose they serve for the music and knowing their limits.  Limits include knowing when NOT to play. 
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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2007, 11:07 AM »

I think Bozzio is an interesting test case here because I think he exemplifies the kind of drummer I think of as "advanced." There no doubt he's a great support drummer. Great stuff with the Brecker Brothers, and took a different approach with everyone he played with -- Zappa, Missing Persons, Korn, etc.

I think he would take offense to anyone who described what he does as a drum solo. He considers it percussion composition, he just happens to be able to play multiple parts. His compositions are highly musical, creative, and bounding with technical ability.

He's more than just a technical freak (much much more) and that's why I think he's an *advanced player.* He would be dynamite in any musical situation.

To be clear, Gaddabout, I wasn't referring to Bozzio as that type of player, just as an example of someone to look up to for solo drumming chops because he does do it (in addition to his great ensemble playing with Zappa, Missing Persons etc.). I would never pigeon-hole him in that way. A player only concerned with extended solo playing, chops and independence would certainly seek out his experiments I would think.
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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2007, 04:09 PM »

Dang, Tony beat me to it but I'll say it anyway.

Advanced: (to me) being able to show up at any musical situation, party, open jam, session, etc. and being able to hang musically with whatever comes up, having the command of the instrument enough to make any drumset sing with the appropriate playing and the confidence to let your particular voice come through.

Would I like to play the maddeningly limb independent ostinatos that Bozzio can, you betcha. Would that help witht the above goal, doubtful.

Also I think its the advanced player that can hang at any style. I thinks its the stellar player who can own any style.

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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2007, 04:25 PM »

Dang, Tony beat me to it but I'll say it anyway.

Advanced: (to me) being able to show up at any musical situation, party, open jam, session, etc. and being able to hang musically with whatever comes up, having the command of the instrument enough to make any drumset sing with the appropriate playing and the confidence to let your particular voice come through.

Would I like to play the maddeningly limb independent ostinatos that Bozzio can, you betcha. Would that help witht the above goal, doubtful.

Also I think its the advanced player that can hang at any style. I thinks its the stellar player who can own any style.



I can't agree with this definition at all. Plenty of advanced drummers would have no leg to stand on in styles that even young kids do well. People specialize in music that they are passionate about - they can be extremely advanced, or even virtuosic in their genre but have no experience with others that require a different skill set. I think a line needs to be drawn between versatile and advanced.
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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2007, 04:27 PM »

I don't know about this.  For me, when trying to come up with a "definition" of advanced, seems to me that one would need to first attempt to separate "experienced" from "technically developed".  The two seem like they are perfectly capable of being mutually exclusive.

You can easily have a drummer who has practiced out of technique/method books for 12 hours a day in his bedroom all by himself for 20 years and who has never played with a group of musicians before as easily as you can have a drummer who has played with bands for 20 years who has never studied technique and has never developed the technique to perform a flamadiddle.  The former drummer can perform nearly any type of exercise or technique that he is presented with.  The latter drummer is in demand and is steadily employed.  So maybe we call the former drummer "technically developed" and we call the latter drummer "experienced".

At the same time, these two 'types' are not mutually exclusive.  You can easily have a steadily employed drummer who has played in bands for 20 years who has also studied out of method books for 20 years and can perform any technique he is presented with thus, a "technically developed drummer with experience".  Is this how one might get to the 'definition' of advanced?  It certainly would be for me, and my definition would also weigh a bit more heavily to the "experienced" attributes.  So for me, It's the "experienced" attributes that define a drummer as "advanced" or not.

In fact, IMO, Mr. A's definition of advanced, is a good example of attributes that I would more associate with "experienced" simply because that type of drummer HAS played in bands/groups/ensembles, etc.  (in other words, has played music, which is, IMO, what a drummer does.)

Cool topic!
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« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2007, 06:29 PM »

For the sake of discussion, I'm drawing a line in the sand between "what is a pro" and "what is advanced." We've had the pro discussions before and I think we've developed a good standard there before. I think the assumption should be made that the truly advanced player is first a respected working pro in at least one genre. I don't know how you could be considered an advanced player and not be a desired sideman or supporting musician in at least one genre. At least, that's how I look at it.
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2007, 07:00 PM »

Advanced: (to me) being able to show up at any musical situation, party, open jam, session, etc. and being able to hang musically with whatever comes up, having the command of the instrument enough to make any drumset sing with the appropriate playing and the confidence to let your particular voice come through.

Yes I agree with that (and Tony's version of the same comment).
We all have different thoughts on 'advanced' drummers, that's what this thread is about.
Almost all of my favourite drummers do not fit my definition of 'advanced'. For one thing, as I said earlier, I do not really care of a player is advanced or not. Some of the 'advanced' attributes mentioned already are vital to me if I'm going to like a player, but I'm not that fussed if a player is a one trick pony, as long as they are good at what they do. To be 'advanced' IMHO, they have to blur the divide between several genres of music, ala Vinnie, Bozzio, Gadd, Erskine etc.....
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2007, 08:16 PM »

Ya know?......advanced has always changed with me. I use to think that if you could play Eighteen by Alice Cooper you were definitely advanced. Then it was Roundabout from Yes to be advanced. Anyone better than me is advanced.
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2007, 08:41 PM »

Anyone better than me is advanced.

That's quite a claim.  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2007, 08:57 PM »

When I spent 3 years in an Army Band I met a few "advanced" players. Drummers that could play anything as long as it was written on a music score. To my surprize some of these guys couldn't play in a rock, country, or alternative band. I learned to appreciate players who could play any style of music, with a lot of feel and taste, with any musicians who were at the same skill level. They always sounded good.   Wink
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2007, 01:19 AM »

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ad·vanced      /ædˈvænst, -ˈvɑnst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ad-vanst, -vahnst]
–adjective
1. placed ahead or forward: with one foot advanced. 
2. ahead or far or further along in progress, complexity, knowledge, skill, etc.: an advanced class in Spanish; to take a course in advanced mathematics; Our plans are too advanced to make the change now. 
3. pertaining to or embodying ideas, practices, attitudes, etc., taken as being more enlightened or liberal than the standardized, established, or traditional: advanced theories of child care; the more advanced members of the artistic community. 
4. far along in time: the advanced age of most senators. 

With professions that require a license, e.g., engineering, medicine, law etc, the test regiment for getting licensed is to demonstrate "minimum competency" in the subject.  You cannot make a test to demonstrate that you are or will be a "good" lawyer or doctor or engineer, just that you have enough of the requisite knowledge/skill to handle what are considered the basic requirements of the profession.  Whether you are "good" is determined on the job by your customers and colleaques. 

Musicians can go through rigorous training and schooling and demonstrate advanced skills based on measurable performance criteria.  Does this mean they are good musicians?  I've known some who are quite skilled but not musicians I'd pay money to hire or listen to. 

So, in my understanding, having the skills and training to be considered advanced is one thing.  Being a skilled practitioner is one thing.  Being a great artist, using advanced or even just intermediate skills is something completely different. 
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2007, 09:37 AM »

All advanced means is not beginner or intermediate
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2007, 11:43 AM »

All advanced means is not beginner or intermediate

What do beginner and intermediate mean, then?
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