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Author Topic: Trad grip... problems moving around the kit!  (Read 1437 times)
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Thunderbird
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« on: July 29, 2007, 01:16 PM »

Hey guys!


Hope you're all well.

Until about a year back, I had always played matched grip.  However, after a few drum lessons I've started playing around with trad grip.

I can feel a notable improvement with practice, but when playing a full kit, while it's great to 'groove' with, I find it nigh-on impossible to play around the kit or hit the cymbals with my left hand!


Any help, tips or advice appreciated...!  Cool
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 01:38 PM »

Hi Thunderbird,
Welcome to the Cafe.
Just from my personnel experience I am a lot like you.  I always played match grip and for the past couple years I have been working on Traditional for certian Jazz or Latin beat type songs.  I have come to realize that there is nothing that I can't do with matched grip that I can with Traditional.  I think that traditional is fun to play around with but I am more comfortable with matched grip to the point that I see no use for Traditional.  You should do a search on "Grips" here.  You will find that we have discussed it quiet a bit.  Go to the Green Tool bar and at the top and click search.
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 03:31 PM »

One of things I think every trad gripper needs to learn is how to hit the cymbal with the left hand. You can't be squeezing the life out of the stick or you'll never get a good angle. I tend to loosen my grip on the stick and sort of unfold my wrist so it's a little like I'm throwing the stick at the cymbal. I am. Sort of. I flip the stick so it rides up my index and middle finger to get the angle, and the arm motion and wrist unfolding gives me the force I need.

It takes some practice, and the left side of your kit almost always needs a little of adjustment from wherever you had your settings with matched grip. High cymbal heights aren't going to work for you. My left crash cymbal is usually just above my head.
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 03:34 PM »

Trad grip is great but like with anything there are trade-offs.  I think most here believe you can do anything matched that you can do with trad so why bother.  I chose to be a trad guy and I'm not formally trained so go figure.  If you watch the great players using trad, you don't see them having much problem getting around, e.g., crashing one the left side, moving to alternate snare, crossing over, etc. so I think it's simply a matter of practice.  I can get around reasonably well but I spent a fair amount of time working that left hand.  It will take a lot of time to get comfortable with any new technique so you need to decide if the benefit is worthwhile.  Key point:  IMHO I don't think you can set your kit up optimally for both - it's either one or the other.  The angle of the snare, the position of toms and cymbals change - at least for me.  Weckl used to switch between trad and matched but said he would get a pain in his arm so he pretty much sticks with trad.  If you decide to stick with it, take some time and watch the videos of the greats, you will definately pickup some ideas and inspiration.
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 06:43 PM »

One of things I think every trad gripper needs to learn is how to hit the cymbal with the left hand. You can't be squeezing the life out of the stick or you'll never get a good angle. I tend to loosen my grip on the stick and sort of unfold my wrist so it's a little like I'm throwing the stick at the cymbal. I am. Sort of. I flip the stick so it rides up my index and middle finger to get the angle, and the arm motion and wrist unfolding gives me the force I need.

Wow Gadd, Throwing the stick at the cymbal.  I have never heard anyone discribe this but that is really what it is like.  I feel like I use my left hand that way more with traditional grip.
I don't know why but it seems to help with muscle memory even when I go back to matched grip. I am now using that side of my body more and this just seems to have come about since I have been playing some Traditional. Being a teacher yourself, does this sound logical?
Maybe it is just thinking more about what I am doing with my left hand is naturally opening some doors?
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 09:19 PM »

Wow Gadd, Throwing the stick at the cymbal.  I have never heard anyone discribe this but that is really what it is like.  I feel like I use my left hand that way more with traditional grip.
I don't know why but it seems to help with muscle memory even when I go back to matched grip. I am now using that side of my body more and this just seems to have come about since I have been playing some Traditional. Being a teacher yourself, does this sound logical?
Maybe it is just thinking more about what I am doing with my left hand is naturally opening some doors?

I really have no idea, but Tony Williams echoed your same comments. He said he liked trad grip because it helped him think of his left hand as a separate entity from his right. I really can't vouch for that. I have a different set of problems in trad grip than I have in matched grip. Maybe it's because my brain unhinges the connectivity. I dunno.
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2007, 11:08 AM »

I really have no idea, but Tony Williams echoed your same comments. He said he liked trad grip because it helped him think of his left hand as a separate entity from his right. I really can't vouch for that. I have a different set of problems in trad grip than I have in matched grip. Maybe it's because my brain unhinges the connectivity. I dunno.
I joined PAS the other Day and I was watching a Steve Smith Video of his last years appearance at Pasic.  Man, what a great one to watch on Traditional Grip.  He has no problems getting around the kit or getting power out of his grip. Also watching him he holds
his hand more perpendicular to the drum.  Almost straight up and down, not laid back like most people you see using it. Also, I have read where Bart has commented on this grip.
He said that is was mostly good for marching band people that had to play with the drum slanted.  Steve Smith angles his snare with the back side down.  Almost opposite from what I am used to. If you get a chance check out some video on him.
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2007, 07:53 AM »

Hey guys!


Hope you're all well.

Until about a year back, I had always played matched grip.  However, after a few drum lessons I've started playing around with trad grip.

I can feel a notable improvement with practice, but when playing a full kit, while it's great to 'groove' with, I find it nigh-on impossible to play around the kit or hit the cymbals with my left hand!


Any help, tips or advice appreciated...!  Cool

The same route you take to Carnegie Hall, practice, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! Wink
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 06:26 AM »

I saw a Dave Weckl clinic in 2006 and he had a fair bit to say on traditional grip. Most notable for you was the fact that he angled his kit like a wave from left to right where toms were up higher on the left (he's a righty) and the floor toms were quiet low. The toms are also tilted slightly (from memory) to the left so that the left hand (the trad hand in Weckl's case) could easily move around the kit. Maybe you can find some pictures of his on the net and experiment with it... I think Neil Peart does this as well.

Its odd - trad grip feels so much better for grooves - but fills just don't work for me. Practise I guess.

good luck.
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 09:30 PM »

I too have tried to become comfortable with Trad, but just feel more comfortable with matched.  I don't remember which DVD it was, but Weckl does go rather in depth about it in one of his later ones.  I watched it and studied it over and over and still feel WAY more comfortable with the matched.  Of course, being a classically matched gripper, I think I will always use matched.  However, if I'm playing traditional jazz or something of that sort on a smaller kit, I will ocasionally use trad because it is really easy to get some good snare play and bounce with it.  something I dont' really have a use for otherwise.  I hope I haven't thoroughly confused you.  LOL!
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2007, 09:52 PM »

Why the move to traditional if you're comfortable with matched?

There are so many aspects of technique that demand every players attention - to change grips when you are comfortable with one already will be a significant challenge. Traditional grip is aesthetically pleasing, and something all drummers should respect of course, but unless you learn that way it seems more trouble than it's worth to retrain yourself.
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2007, 10:14 PM »

I agree with Nuclear in principle, but on the other hand (pardon the pun) there can be some value in experimenting with new grips, etc. If it puts you into a different mindset that generates critical thinking about grip, stroke, muscle use, set-up or spurns you into new creative territory, there can be great value in working on a new grip, outside of the greater facility you may, or may not, achieve.

In my own experience, I've started working on more traditional grip stuff because I found I hit certain roadblocks in my brush playing. I originally learned to play brushes traditional style, but moved to matched grip on the advice of Barry Elmes, a fine, fine jazz drummer who plays everything matched. The logic was the same as yours, Nuclear: why learn another grip when one will do? But over time there were shadings and effects that I found were easier to execute with traditional grip so I've had to go back and try to teach myself more trad. grip technique. Now I have BOTH options in my quiver.
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2007, 10:52 PM »

I can't think of a good reason for a proficient matched-grip player to ever use traditional. And I say this as a guy who grew up on traditional, and still uses it occasionally.

If you already are comfortable with matched, spend your time and effort working on getting better at matched grip.

The only reason I still occasionally resort to traditional is because that grip had a 5-year head-start in my own playing. Unless you're marching in a drumline that requires traditional, I see no reason for a good matched grip player to bother with it.

Not the most popular opinion, but I'll stand behind it.

That said, you can certainly get around a kit and crash cymbals using traditional. It just takes practice.
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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2007, 12:33 AM »

I can't think of a good reason for a proficient matched-grip player to ever use traditional. And I say this as a guy who grew up on traditional, and still uses it occasionally.

I think I've said this in every trad grip thread, but I think it's a wise comment from a great player worth repeating a few times:

Dave Weckl states his switches back and forth between matched and traditional, but when he does it it's entirely an emotional choice. He can play anything with one grip that he can do with the other. He recognizes that his comfort zones have little to do with the grip's capabilities and more to do with the way his brain is wired ... he learned different grips at different stages of his development. Not only that, but he dramatically changed his trad grip and now uses a bunch of different techniques with it, so he's constantly shifting his left hand in traditional.

I think this comment drives home the point that it makes a lot of sense to stick with one grip and master it. Weckl's the only drummer I know that uses both with an extremely high level of efficiency, and his comments seems to still reveal a discomfort with either. He's more comfortable now, but not really at peace. I've used both for almost as long as I've been playing (30+ years), and if I had to go back and do it over again, I would stick with one. I feel like I lost a year or two of learning really important stuff to pursue my trad grip chops.
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2007, 10:10 AM »

I think I've said this in every trad grip thread, but I think it's a wise comment from a great player worth repeating a few times:

Dave Weckl states his switches back and forth between matched and traditional, but when he does it it's entirely an emotional choice. He can play anything with one grip that he can do with the other. He recognizes that his comfort zones have little to do with the grip's capabilities and more to do with the way his brain is wired ... he learned different grips at different stages of his development. Not only that, but he dramatically changed his trad grip and now uses a bunch of different techniques with it, so he's constantly shifting his left hand in traditional.

I think this comment drives home the point that it makes a lot of sense to stick with one grip and master it. Weckl's the only drummer I know that uses both with an extremely high level of efficiency, and his comments seems to still reveal a discomfort with either. He's more comfortable now, but not really at peace. I've used both for almost as long as I've been playing (30+ years), and if I had to go back and do it over again, I would stick with one. I feel like I lost a year or two of learning really important stuff to pursue my trad grip chops.

FYI and FWIW! I pointed this out in my post earlier but the last Weckl clinic I attended about 2.5 years ago, he said that he USED to switch and now plays only trad.  The reason being he would develop some pain when switching between the two.  I've seen him play 3 times since then and I haven't seen the matched. 
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2007, 10:21 AM »

I've always switched back & forth, traditional to matched grip. Depends on what I'm playing.

Many big time drummers do, too. Watch a video of Steve Smith or Neil Peart very long and you'll see them switching to matched for better reach around the kit and back to traditional for more snare work.

Boomerweps.
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 10:43 AM »

I've always switched back & forth, traditional to matched grip. Depends on what I'm playing.

Many big time drummers do, too. Watch a video of Steve Smith or Neil Peart very long and you'll see them switching to matched for better reach around the kit and back to traditional for more snare work.

Boomerweps.
Yea, Carl Palmer does it to.  I have been switching back and forth over the last few years.  I still feel that there is nothing I can't do with matched grip that I can do Triditional. I think that I have benefited from just thinking about my left hand more. 
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2007, 10:51 AM »

FYI and FWIW! I pointed this out in my post earlier but the last Weckl clinic I attended about 2.5 years ago, he said that he USED to switch and now plays only trad.  The reason being he would develop some pain when switching between the two.  I've seen him play 3 times since then and I haven't seen the matched. 

Yep, I just wanted to point out that even Weckl understood it as an illogical thing. He switched back and forth, but he never noticed any benefit to it other than subconscious comfort levels.

I didn't know until you mentioned that he's dropped matched entirely. I'm guessing that's Freddie Gruber's influence.
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2007, 12:44 PM »

I grew up playing traditional grip in school band and Army band. Over time I found that on certain rock tunes I could lay into the snare more with matched for more drive. I got to the point where I could switch during songs and back to traditional for more intricate work. Practice is the key to either method. I don't even think about it now. I just do it as I need it. But without practice I wouldn't have been able to do that.
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2007, 02:51 PM »

After many false starts, I'm finally getting up to speed with traditional grip.
Quote
I still feel that there is nothing I can't do with matched grip that I can do Traditional.

I find I can swing and I can play quietly with traditional.  I can't do either with matched.  That's likely just because I learned to bash out rock beats with matched and now I'm learning Blues and Jazz with trad.  Fresh start.
Quote
I think that I have benefited from just thinking about my left hand more.
Exactly.  With matched grip my left hand was always struggling to match my right.  With trad it seems more normal to let the left hand set the pace, and the right hand follows easily.

I'm always puzzled by the trad/matched debate.  I mean, just look at the grips - they're different.
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