Paicey
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« on: November 09, 2007, 08:53 PM » |
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Im almost embarassed but i STILL havent sat down and figured out the count when Bonham comes in on all the breaks to Black Dog. Hey hey mama said the way you move gonna make you sweat gonna make you groove...... All those counts. As a kid i use to just kinda guess. Anyone have any tunes or parts to tunes from youth that youve never taken the time to nail but could?.
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Shoeless
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2007, 09:56 PM » |
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Well the thing about Black Dog as I see it, and probably you know this (?), I don't think it is countable, but by feel. I listen for the faint stick click after "...make you groove" bit and nail it every time, although I think there may be one or two that cue directly off the vocal. I guess the stick click is the cue tot the band when they recorded it? An interesting way of playing to be sure.
As far as stuff I never got around to nailing, parts of the drum break from Frankenstein, that fill in Tom Sawyer, you know THAT fill, and, all,right, I'm still a bit thrown by the into to Rock and Roll. I know the timing, I know the sticking. I've faked it hundreds of times, I know I'm not doing it right.
...oh yeah and there's also that drum thing at the end of Rock and Roll. too
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TheBeachBoy
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2007, 10:58 PM » |
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For Black Dog, I count it out based off the tempo of the vocals, well as best as I can.
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New York Frank
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 07:54 AM » |
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There's also no substitute for simple: repetition.
And, slowing it down, if necessary.
If you don't have that start to Rock and Roll down, you probably just never explicitly sat down to memorize it. Get a loop of it going, maybe at a slower tempo, and play it on your lap until you get it. You'll get it quickly. Then bring it to the kit.
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Absolut
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 08:26 AM » |
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Black dog is pretty tricky, mostly just from the timing. in fact, i read in an article that it was their bassist, his name eludes me, but it was him who wrote the riff, and he said its counted in one bar of 5/4 and one of 4/4. then theres the vocals part, goes back into that. at least, thats if memory serves me well. What throws most people off is the big cymbal hit bonham does. it actually falls on beat 2 of the first bar. this is generally what confuses drummers (ie me  ). anyways, hope this helps. and as for tunes from my youth, im only 16 so, yeah, lets just say theres a lot of dream theater stuff that i just fake. But i did recently learn the proper way to play a Samba instead of the cheap way, so thats a good sign! |
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Paicey
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 10:47 AM » |
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Im not the only one?  . Hey, the Frankenstein tune bugged me to!. I also! had some fits with the last tiny bit of Rock&Roll. It use to dam bug! me being a nut case perfectionist that that last teency count into the tune gave me a fit. Ive done the dam thing countless times (no pun intended) but i didnt nail it under the microscope and id think im NOT going to let the last nanosecond of the intro ruin my life!  . Youve all put a smile on my face this morning reading about other players who have struggled with the same issues. SOMEWHERE, on another side of the planet.... SOMEONE with sticks in hand was having the same fits that i was having. This is therapy for me. IM NOT ALONE!!  . |
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DR
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 07:24 AM » |
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Black dog is pretty tricky, mostly just from the timing. in fact, i read in an article that it was their bassist, his name eludes me, but it was him who wrote the riff, and he said its counted in one bar of 5/4 and one of 4/4. then theres the vocals part, goes back into that. at least, thats if memory serves me well...
FWIW, I want to share this quote about "Black Dog" attributed to Robert Plant during one of his tours with Phil Collins: …. MUSICIAN: I'd have to agree with you there, in fact, I've always found it funny that the heaviest Zeppelin song, "Black Dog," was also, and perhaps by no small coincidence, the one that always screwed up the garage bands, that they couldn't get. PLANT: That's right, because you can't play it, yeah. Because it's got a beat that's count of five over a count of four, and trips and skips and stuff like that. It was our perogative and our joy to take what people thought.... We just wanted to see people try to move to it, and then miss the beat. And then still call it heavy. It was just a trick, a game, and well within our capabilities to do. And it just stopped a lot of other people from doing the same thing, from copying it. …. Life In A Lighter Zeppelin Robert Plant Interview, Dec. 1983 |
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felix
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2008, 08:08 AM » |
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I can't stand that song. Don't waste your time Paicey I had a transcription of it and I thought counting it in 9/8 made the tune more managable IIRC. But yeah, I'd like to cover that tune and make it heavy by today's standards if anything. |
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Jim R.
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2008, 10:51 AM » |
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I saw a good trascription somewhere not too long ago, I'll look for it. The studio version does throw you off, but it you listen to the BBC session live sessions and hear how they play it, the mystery will be gone. On that version they start out with a classic r&b riff that they used on "Out on the tiles", then the band cues off of Plant's vocal without the odd pause that they do on the studio version.
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Chip71
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2008, 11:46 AM » |
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What throws most people off is the big cymbal hit bonham does. it actually falls on beat 2 of the first bar.
Yep, you've got that right.  Many years ago I sat in a basement learning that song. I played it on probably a hundred gigs with them. We played it over, and over, until we got it right.  |
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Peppe
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2008, 01:20 PM » |
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The crash falls on beat 2? I've always interpreted that riff as one bar of 4/4 followed by one bar of 5/8, making the crash land on the "&" of 1 in the first bar. I find it incredibly difficult to change the way I interpret a song in my head, once my mind has decided where "1" is - and that happens almost instantly! More than once, when fellow musicians demonstrate some new material to me, I've had to ask them "Where's the downbeat?"  |
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Chip71
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2008, 02:08 PM » |
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The crash falls on beat 2? I've always interpreted that riff as one bar of 4/4 followed by one bar of 5/8, making the crash land on the "&" of 1 in the first bar.
Just try to get 5 band members to agree on that. Most rock bands the musicians aren't trained....I've had several arguments about that same thing. So it was easier to just hit the crash on 2 and go. If you hit it right you may even wake a couple guys up. |
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"When you quit learning you start dieing"-My Grandfather
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Vintage Ludwig
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2008, 08:16 PM » |
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The ONLY way Ive ever been able to do it and nail it is because its all left up to the drums. And I have to be able to see the other band members to get the feel or vibe. If Im doing it blindly, its almost guaranteed to not be spot on and in time.
Ive seen Zep do it live 4 times and based on that, as well as the video clips as well as the last reunion gig-thats how its done.
The bad part is-if its not done right, its Mo-Fug-Ly ugly!
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robyn
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2008, 11:58 PM » |
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I think Black Dog is still beyond me.  But I do have a song coming up that is 4/4, but towards the end has a measure of 5/4, then 2 measures of 3/4, then a couple measures of cut-time, then it repeats, kindof. There are some changes in the repeat. I whacked at it for days until I finally gave up trying to count it, and now I've got it down by feel. There's a violin bit in that part, so I work off the violins and it goes well. robyn |
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Paicey
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 03:54 PM » |
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Hey, sometimes you just go for it good as ya can by golly and hope that the force is with you  . The chicks in the audience usually dont notice anyway so....FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!!. |
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JeffK
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 11:35 AM » |
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I love Zeppelin and especially John Bonham's drumming, even though it took me years to really appreciate what he was doing, same thing with Ringo, but I can't imagine the band spent that much thought on trying to work out a sneaky little time change into Black Dog. I think it was probably just a riff that Page liked and it was Bonhams job to make something fit.
You can hear the stick clicks on the recording giving the cue to come in.
I wouldn't over think it.
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Paicey
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« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2008, 09:22 PM » |
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I love Zeppelin and especially John Bonham's drumming, even though it took me years to really appreciate what he was doing, same thing with Ringo, but I can't imagine the band spent that much thought on trying to work out a sneaky little time change into Black Dog. I think it was probably just a riff that Page liked and it was Bonhams job to make something fit.
You can hear the stick clicks on the recording giving the cue to come in.
I wouldn't over think it.
You can hear the rim clicks!?, just a dam minute here, ill be RIGHT back. |
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Scott(Sjm1112)
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2008, 06:28 PM » |
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The stick click thing is the key to playing that song. Funny thing is, I never even realized that it was there until last year I saw an all girl band playing the song in bar in Jakarta, Indonesia of all places. Those girls were tight and the drummer did that little click and it worked like a charm! I was amazed! I then went back to my hotel room and listened to the song on my iPod and sure enough, there it was. Before that, I had probably listened to that song 2,000 times and never noticed that click. Fun stuff!
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Jim R.
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2008, 08:27 PM » |
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It's cool to figure out what they do on the record, but as I mentioned earlier, if you listen to the live versions, either BBC sessions or HOw the West was Won, you will hear that Zeppelin doesn't play it that way live. I think its just a weird thing that happened in the studio, cool though.
Why try to learn it that way for a live performance, even Zeppelin plays it in a way that makes more sense for a live performance. Listen to the live versions and you'll know what I mean. They cue right off the vocal, there is no pause.
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Scott(Sjm1112)
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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2008, 11:24 PM » |
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You are right about the live versions. I think maybe when they were initially writing the song, they needed the click, but after playing it a few hundred times, they just instinctively knew when to come in together.
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A good way to threaten somebody is to light a stick of dynamite. Then you call the guy and hold the burning fuse up to the phone. "Hear that?" you say. "That's dynamite, baby."
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